I'm confused

[webmasterteen]

I've been a member of the church all my life.

For a while I've been a member of an online message forum containing members from around the world, most not being religious. I've been okay with the difference, in fact I've enjoyed being able to explain gospel topics to those with questions.

However, just recently, some of these more anti-religious people have started to make me question the church. I know that you shouldn't be involved with anti-religious topics, but in a way, I never got into them, they got into me.

The main problem I had was accepting that I'm not brainwashed. Many of the members of this forum had started to convince me that the things I've grown up with are wrong, incorrect or ignorant and sheltered. I know not to believe everything I read, but some of their arguments seemed to make sense.

I talked with the bishop about it and he helped me to feel better. However, I still have a bit of their doubt in my mind.

The biggest problem is when I announced how I was going to watch General Conference and hear words from the Prophet and other leaders. Someone stated "at least, that's what they say". I know that you have to have faith in order to really "survive", and I do. I want to have faith. But I've started to feel torn apart a little as I ponder if the church is true.

The concern I have is that, if you think about it, if God is real, then why does he allow so many churches which don't teach all of the correct truths? Why can't the true church be the only one to exist?

Also, knowing this, of course anyone can claim to have revelations from God. How do you know that the Prophet truly is a Prophet of God?

I've grown up believing, and have been told it's just to brainwash myself.

I'm starting to question how legit this all is.

I do want to believe, but I've been slowly convinced as to why I shouldn't.

[Dravin]

The concern I have is that, if you think about it, if God is real, then why does he allow so many churches which don't teach all of the correct truths? Why can't the true church be the only one to exist?

If you've been a member of the Church your whole life then you already know the answer to this question.

Also, knowing this, of course anyone can claim to have revelations from God. How do you know that the Prophet truly is a Prophet of God?

Personal revelation on the matter. How do you know it's revelation? Ultimately that comes down to faith. There is no objective scientific evidence on the subject that leaves one in a position where you can't conclude something else.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Dravin

[MorningStar]

I've seen people who were talked out of believing in God period. Once people use "logic" to convince them the church was wrong, they use that same "logic" to determine that God doesn't exist. I've seen way more people leave for Atheism than for another church.

God allows us to make choices, which is how so many churches exist - so many interpretations of the same writings. I would spend less time talking to people trying to make me doubt my faith and get back to the basics - prayer, scripture study, etc. Everyone is "brainwashed". No matter who you are, your parents instilled a set of values and beliefs in you. With a childhood friend, her parents fed her a load of garbage, acting like nothing needed to be hidden from children, so they used porn to teach her about sex and didn't mind that she was watching Saturday Night Live at the age of 5 in her bedroom.

Keep a journal and record spiritual experiences. I think we forget those things easily and can wonder if those things ever really happened. Live the Gospel and you will receive a confirmation repeatedly that it is true.

[NeuroTypical]

Many of the members of this forum had started to convince me that the things I've grown up with are wrong, incorrect or ignorant and sheltered.

The gospel is true. But a lot of things mormons 'grow up with' are not the gospel.

It's a maturing process to figure out which is which. Some criticisms are factually incorrect. Some are uncharitably assuming things that aren't there. Some are true, but don't contradict the gospel.

Doubt is good. Resolve your doubt. Once you can say why you believe what you believe, then you're good to go.

[webmasterteen]

If you've been a member of the Church your whole life then you already know the answer to this question.

Personal revelation on the matter. How do you know it's revelation? Ultimately that comes down to faith. There is no objective scientific evidence on the subject that leaves one in a position where you can't conclude something else.

I know why. But they have started to make me question with the thought process of an Atheist.

Yes, I still pray at night, and hope that God will help me. I feel that if He indeed does exist, then He can and will help me when He knows I'm ready. I just feel like I need to know now.

I've seen people who were talked out of believing in God period. Once people use "logic" to convince them the church was wrong, they use that same "logic" to determine that God doesn't exist. I've seen way more people leave for Atheism than for another church.

God allows us to make choices, which is how so many churches exist - so many interpretations of the same writings. I would spend less time talking to people trying to make me doubt my faith and get back to the basics - prayer, scripture study, etc. Everyone is "brainwashed". No matter who you are, your parents instilled a set of values and beliefs in you. With a childhood friend, her parents fed her a load of garbage, acting like nothing needed to be hidden from children, so they used porn to teach her about sex and didn't mind that she was watching Saturday Night Live at the age of 5 in her bedroom.

Keep a journal and record spiritual experiences. I think we forget those things easily and can wonder if those things ever really happened. Live the Gospel and you will receive a confirmation repeatedly that it is true.

Yes, I've been pulled into the circle of logic many times.

I agree and can related to that. No matter what, we all have been born and raised the way our parents felt was best.

I think one reason why I am starting to doubt is because I'm at the age where I start to make critical choices in my life, and I know that some of them include going on a Mission. Satan wants me to do anything but that, so he'll take advantage when I hesitate and he'll make me wonder if it's worth it.

As you can see, I am using what I've grown up with and what I have come to the conclusion with the church about, to convince myself that the church is true.

The gospel is true. But a lot of things mormons 'grow up with' are not the gospel.

It's a maturing process to figure out which is which. Some criticisms are factually incorrect. Some are uncharitably assuming things that aren't there. Some are true, but don't contradict the gospel.

Doubt is good. Resolve your doubt. Once you can say why you believe what you believe, then you're good to go.

I know. My parents have taught me what is doctrine vs what is tradition.

I guess the best way to explain how I feel is, when you are being tempted to do something wrong, and you try to convince yourself that it is wrong, but you end up doing the wrong anyway.

I know that Satan is tempting me. Yet I'm more confused as to why, if God exists and the church is true, then why some of these reasons why it isn't true, make sense to me?

Edited April 4, 2011 by webmasterteen

[HiJolly]

I've been a member of the church all my life.

Cool. Me too. I'm 50 years old.

The concern I have is that, if you think about it, if God is real, then why does he allow so many churches which don't teach all of the correct truths? Why can't the true church be the only one to exist?

Because God allows all kinds of activity here on Earth that is not exactly pleasing to Him, but he has granted us our moral agency. This means that there HAS TO BE lots of religions -- because they are based on the actions of people who are exercising their agency. And we are allowed to start churches, to break off from existing churches, and all that.

Like evil, it is a necessary by-product of moral agency.

Also, knowing this, of course anyone can claim to have revelations from God. How do you know that the Prophet truly is a Prophet of God?

There are a couple of different angles on this. I like Jesus' approach. If you think they are a prophet, then try doing what they say to do for awhile. If it works out well & you feel closer to God or better yet if the spirit confirms to you that this is good stuff, then you can pretty well say they are a prophet.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

I know why. But they have started to make me question with the thought process of an Atheist.

I think there is value in that, but you have to know where to draw the line. Most atheists are the way they are because they have trust issues. And knowing the way things are in the world, that makes a ton of sense. Trust is fairly synonymous with "faith".

Any line of reasoning that throws out the value or meaning of non-rational mental processes is NOT going to support believing in Prophets or God. Same for people who don't believe in the useful value of immaterial things or emotions or feelings.

These folks are supported by logic but not by real life.

I guess the best way to explain how I feel is, when you are being tempted to do something wrong, and you try to convince yourself that it is wrong, but you end up doing the wrong anyway.

That is the human condition. It's why opera (soap or otherwise) has existed for so many years. It is necessary in our fallen world.

I know that Satan is tempting me. Yet I'm more confused as to why, if God exists and the church is true, then why some of these reasons why it isn't true, make sense to me?

Sometimes a truth is taken too far, to conclusions that don't take into account the whole story, the whole situation. That's why.

The whole picture is complicated and requires a lot of information and sometimes experience, too.

HiJolly

[findingmyway]

Also, knowing this, of course anyone can claim to have revelations from God. How do you know that the Prophet truly is a Prophet of God?

By not waiting for your road to Damascus. Hey man.... all these questions you have, just shows you're faith is tried. You're either becoming truly converted or ...... well..... not.

You heard the prophet and the speakers today and yesterday, did they answer any of your questions or concerns ? They answered a lot of mine. I hope you found yours.:)

[Suzie]

I know that Satan is tempting me. Yet I'm more confused as to why, if God exists and the church is true, then why some of these reasons why it isn't true, make sense to me?

Even though is true that Satan tempt us in many aspects of our lives, we also need to realize that sometimes these doubts and questions are natural, particularly those who inquire more than others. Maybe you would like to share these concerns and reasons?

[jayanna]

webmasterteen, did you watch conference? Well, they were talking about this very thing! As findingmyway has mentioned above...God obviously answered your question in conference this weeked, He has heard your prayers and answered your concerns through authorities He has sent, and prepared for your welfare. You have a reason to have JOY! :)

The Lord has sent you so much, scriptures, prayer, a Savior, apostles, and prophets...before you read that anti stuff, if you insist on reading it...you need to put on the whole armor of God. He has offered you ways to get testimony. If you live the gospel you will find that it is true.

What are these anit's telling you all this stuff for, are they wanting to improve your family life? Are they encouraging you to do good works? Are they helping you find a way to find happiness and fulfillment? Are they telling you that you have a divine purpose? Or are they angry and jealous that you have something they don't? After reading their comments/remarks how do you feel? Do you feel good? Do you feel the joy you feel when you read the scriptures and they tell you to be good to others and that you are loved?

Don't sell your birthright for a bowl of food.

[webmasterteen]

Cool. Me too. I'm 50 years old.

Because God allows all kinds of activity here on Earth that is not exactly pleasing to Him, but he has granted us our moral agency. This means that there HAS TO BE lots of religions -- because they are based on the actions of people who are exercising their agency. And we are allowed to start churches, to break off from existing churches, and all that.

Like evil, it is a necessary by-product of moral agency.

There are a couple of different angles on this. I like Jesus' approach. If you think they are a prophet, then try doing what they say to do for awhile. If it works out well & you feel closer to God or better yet if the spirit confirms to you that this is good stuff, then you can pretty well say they are a prophet.

HiJolly

That does make sense. And I knew it all along. I guess I just needed to hear it from someone else.

That's the thing. Before I questioned the church, I was happy. Yet suddenly these new viewpoints that have been given to me to ponder, make me unhappy. I feel that it's saying to keep going to church, but they argue that I'm simply used to going to church, which is why I feel unhappy when I question it.

I think there is value in that, but you have to know where to draw the line. Most atheists are the way they are because they have trust issues. And knowing the way things are in the world, that makes a ton of sense. Trust is fairly synonymous with "faith".

Any line of reasoning that throws out the value or meaning of non-rational mental processes is NOT going to support believing in Prophets or God. Same for people who don't believe in the useful value of immaterial things or emotions or feelings.

These folks are supported by logic but not by real life.

That is the human condition. It's why opera (soap or otherwise) has existed for so many years. It is necessary in our fallen world.

Sometimes a truth is taken too far, to conclusions that don't take into account the whole story, the whole situation. That's why.

The whole picture is complicated and requires a lot of information and sometimes experience, too.

HiJolly

I will often state that they need faith. They then make fun of it by stating that, well they have faith they will 'insert crazy thing here', and what difference does it make?

By not waiting for your road to Damascus. Hey man.... all these questions you have, just shows you're faith is tried. You're either becoming truly converted or ...... well..... not.

You heard the prophet and the speakers today and yesterday, did they answer any of your questions or concerns ? They answered a lot of mine. I hope you found yours.:)

I feel I'm at the stage where it's time to make crucial choices in my life, and Satan knows that and is doing what he can to change my mind.

Yes, I did get some answers. But again, I unfortunately viewed it mostly from the Atheists view, that these are just old people who claim to be taught by God.

Even though is true that Satan tempt us in many aspects of our lives, we also need to realize that sometimes these doubts and questions are natural, particularly those who inquire more than others. Maybe you would like to share these concerns and reasons?

Well the first thing that they tried to convince me about was that I'm just brainwashed into "yet another religion". Since there are a few religious people but mostly atheists there. ProBoards Support - View Profile: Ryan Roos is the main guy who is anti-religious. He has thrown the God and rock question at me, (Can God make a rock so big and heavy He Himself cannot lift it?) has thrown every piece of scientific piece of evidence as to why God cannot exist, etc. Even the owner of the forum is anti, but doesn't throw it in my face.

The main problems I have is that I believe everything people say. I turned 12 and really got into the gullible stage. Even some of the boys at church were a bit mean. So then I went online more because I didn't feel rejected as much (at church, but I felt it was because the boys were human, I didn't blame the church) and I started to trust what these people online said, mostly because they were right about many of the scientific things they said, plus the news they would talk about.

Then my religion started to get questioned, and with issues such as Prop 8 hitting us, I really got hit hard accused of not being Christian. I've done my best to defend the church, but then they started to accuse me of things that weren't true.

Finally I started to doubt a few things here and there. I then started to view the church a bit on the Atheist point of view. And here I am Today still affected by it.

webmasterteen, did you watch conference? Well, they were talking about this very thing! As findingmyway has mentioned above...God obviously answered your question in conference this weeked, He has heard your prayers and answered your concerns through authorities He has sent, and prepared for your welfare. You have a reason to have JOY! :)

The Lord has sent you so much, scriptures, prayer, a Savior, apostles, and prophets...before you read that anti stuff, if you insist on reading it...you need to put on the whole armor of God. He has offered you ways to get testimony. If you live the gospel you will find that it is true.

What are these anit's telling you all this stuff for, are they wanting to improve your family life? Are they encouraging you to do good works? Are they helping you find a way to find happiness and fulfillment? Are they telling you that you have a divine purpose? Or are they angry and jealous that you have something they don't? After reading their comments/remarks how do you feel? Do you feel good? Do you feel the joy you feel when you read the scriptures and they tell you to be good to others and that you are loved?

Don't sell your birthright for a bowl of food.

Yes I did. I enjoy watching it, even if I feel it may not be true, based on my doubts I've been having. But I did feel the spirit.

I guess I sort of half have the worldly view of "it's just your emotions" trying to explain everything. I state that things are just coincidence, etc.

It hurts even worse when I tried to explain my view on homosexuality. Here's the topic:

404: Board Not Found! - Gay marriage debate

I had posted in another thread how I didn't like people who tried to change the way the world is. Then they moved it and made it appear that I had started another gay debate thread. You can see my defending, and then giving up.

[Blackmarch]

I've been a member of the church all my life.

For a while I've been a member of an online message forum containing members from around the world, most not being religious. I've been okay with the difference, in fact I've enjoyed being able to explain gospel topics to those with questions.

However, just recently, some of these more anti-religious people have started to make me question the church. I know that you shouldn't be involved with anti-religious topics, but in a way, I never got into them, they got into me.

The main problem I had was accepting that I'm not brainwashed. Many of the members of this forum had started to convince me that the things I've grown up with are wrong, incorrect or ignorant and sheltered. I know not to believe everything I read, but some of their arguments seemed to make sense.

I talked with the bishop about it and he helped me to feel better. However, I still have a bit of their doubt in my mind.

The biggest problem is when I announced how I was going to watch General Conference and hear words from the Prophet and other leaders. Someone stated "at least, that's what they say". I know that you have to have faith in order to really "survive", and I do. I want to have faith. But I've started to feel torn apart a little as I ponder if the church is true.

don't worry you're human. you're going through the same things we have in the past or are going thru currently. Exercise patience in these matters, and wait to see what happens.

The concern I have is that, if you think about it, if God is real, then why does he allow so many churches which don't teach all of the correct truths? Why can't the true church be the only one to exist?

because god does not puppetmaster any of us. this world was made for man, and so God leaves it to man to do as he will in this life.. and generally it takes quite a bit of effort and sacrifice to get God to intervene (at least more directly) for man.

Also, knowing this, of course anyone can claim to have revelations from God. How do you know that the Prophet truly is a Prophet of God?

Matthew 11 has a very good advice- watch and see what fruit they produce- if it's good and comes to pass then it's quite likely they are a prophet.

I've grown up believing, and have been told it's just to brainwash myself.

go take a psychology class, you'll find that everyone is "brainwashed" towards some ideal or another (depending on what theory seems most reasonable to you). However we have the ability and power to choose which ones want to be in. I've found more "brainwashing" outside the church than in.

I'm starting to question how legit this all is.

this can be good, but you need to pray earnestly, and humble yourself.

What do you believe constitutes legitimacy?

I do want to believe, but I've been slowly convinced as to why I shouldn't.

why are you being convinced that you shouldn't?

As soon as you start seeking faults, you will find faults whether they exist or not, and therefore because God is perfect and what he does is perfect.. and since the church has these percieved faults it cannot be true. This is a deception and a tactic that is used very often to first instill doubt and then if allowed to grow will lead to seperation from God, and eventually will seperate one from the blessings and peace of the gospel.

Guess what, the people of God, and the propehts of God are very human, and even with prophets god does not have them on puppet strings and they have to use their judgement and own insight on what God has shared with them to make decisions.

I can tell you from experience thast there is a God, and that the LDS church is his.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Blackmarch

[Dravin]

I will often state that they need faith. They then make fun of it by stating that, well they have faith they will 'insert crazy thing here', and what difference does it make?

Faith in something that is untrue doesn't really benefit you. The question is of course, has been and always will be, what is true? But I have faith when I flip on my light switch the electricity will flow, this benefits me inasmuch as I actually take advantage of electrical lighting. Now if I had faith that when I jump off a building that I don't get injured, then I'm probably in for some hurt.

That faith in anything and everything isn't useful isn't an argument against faith so much as it is an argument against having faith in anything and everything. Even scientists exercise (a form of) faith, how many people have independently verified the findings of nuclear chemistry or plate tectonics they learned about back in Chem or Geo 101?

I feel I'm at the stage where it's time to make crucial choices in my life, and Satan knows that and is doing what he can to change my mind.

Indeed, it sounds like you have reached a crossroads. Will you choose to believe or not? Will you allow whomever happens to be the most polished rhetorician decide for you?

He has thrown the God and rock question at me, (Can God make a rock so big and heavy He Himself cannot lift it?)

Which is an argument against certain concepts of omnipotence not against God. As LDS are quite comfortable saying God can't do anything we might conceive of (like say lying and remaining God, or creating matter from nothing, or creating intelligence (or the light of truth)), it is not exactly a blow against LDS Theology. The problem of evil also runs into similar issues inasmuch as it accepts as a premise that theologically speaking LDS don't (its concept of omnipotence being one we've already touched on).

Which is actually par for the course for a lot of arguments, one has to accept various premises for them to really mean anything, else you just have a nice little self contained logically correct argument that doesn't reflect the real world.

For example:

1. All people who wear green are evil.

2. You wear green.

3. You are evil.

The logical argument itself is perfectly sound, the problem is the premise (that all people who wear green are evil).

Edited April 4, 2011 by Dravin

[rameumptom]

One of the great blessings of the Restoration is our understanding of the atonement and grace. Alma 29:8 tells us that God gives to people the level of truth and light they are willing and able to receive. God does not force his truths upon anyone.

In other Christian faiths, there is a belief that the atonement and grace are limited to just a few. for example, the savage who was born in a place and time where he did not get to hear the gospel of Christ would be doomed to hell forever, even though he never had a chance.

We believe that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son" (John 3:16). God loves all the world, not just a part of it. However, the belief that there is just one heaven and one hell means that other Christians have to struggle with their belief: who is going to heaven, and who to hell?

For us, we believe that all but the sons of perdition are going to be saved in heaven. To be a son of perdition means a person must be evil and totally reject Christ's atonement. Very few will ever do this. Instead, we believe that almost all people will be saved by Jesus' grace in one of the kingdoms of heaven. D&C 76 teaches that the Telestial Kingdom is a kingdom of glory and salvation that is better than any place upon the earth.

What is required is for us to repent and believe on Christ. If we sin and refuse to repent, we will suffer in Spirit Prison until we do repent, even as Jesus suffered (D&C 19). Alma went through this kind of suffering until he repented, and then he found himself free from hell (Alma 36). He was now worthy of a kingdom of heaven and salvation. Through his good works after his conversion, Alma would become worthy of higher glory in the heavens.

This is not a sign of a "frenzied mind" (Alma 30) or brainwashing. Your friends attack what they do not understand. They have not had the spiritual experiences you have had, and so speak out of ignorance. In reality, they probably do not know the doctrines of their own churches very well. If they did, they might be shocked at how brainwashed their own church members are on some teachings.

If you were to stop believing, what would you replace it with? If the gospel has made you happy in your life, are you interested in replacing it with something that will make you less happy, or even miserable? Are your "friends" so happy in their own lives as to offer you something better? Have they actually taken the time to study LDS theology with an open mind before deciding it is wrong? Or are they just speaking out of being part of the crowd? I'm guessing it is the latter. They speak out of ignorance. They find one or two anti-Mormon websites and think they are experts on all things.

Well, I've studied these things for more than 30 years. I've compared the scriptures and other ancient texts, and am very convinced that we are being taught by inspired men of God.

If you had the chance to listen to General Conference this weekend, was there anything taught that seemed to be crazy or brainwashing about it?

Joseph Smith had witnesses. Others saw the gold plates. Others were with him and saw visions with him. During the Kirtland Temple dedication, hundreds saw angels and spoke in tongues. What other people that claim to be prophets have such witness as this?

You can see what I've written about Joseph Smith's Prophecy on War (D&C 87) and how it is coming to pass even in our day. DC87 - Life, the Universe, and Etcetera

Or read some of my other evidences for the Church: LDS Evidences - Life, the Universe, and Etcetera

I haven't written much on my website in years, since I'm now mostly blogging. However, many new evidences have come up in the past decade for Mormonism.

But none of these things can truly convince us. They are evidences, not proofs. The only proof is the Holy Ghost. You have felt it in the past. It brought you peace, joy and happiness as you've learned the gospel, served, and done baptisms for the dead. This is the true witness. Meanwhile, Satan is only offering you confusion through these other people. I would venture that not once have you felt at peace or happy as you've listened to them. You've only felt confused. That should tell you something right there. If they cannot offer you something as good as the gospel is in bringing joy and peace, then they are offering you garbage. Esau gave up his birthright for a mess of pottage (vegetable soup), which probably wasn't satisfying and it definitely did make him happy for very long. Don't be like Esau and walk away from the promises you've made with God, and the joy God has given you in return.

[rameumptom]

One thing about atheists: how do they know there isn't a God? Have they traveled the entire universe and found it void of Him? How can they know Joseph Smith didn't see God and Jesus? Did they see Joseph in the grove? They speak from their void of wisdom. They think things must be touched and seen in order to be believed. Yet, they believe in many things that are not felt with the hands nor seen with the eyes. They believe in love as an emotion. They believe in the mind as something beyond just a bunch of neurons. They believe in many theories of science that cannot be proved, even though there may be evidences pointing towards them.

God has told us how he teaches us spiritual things. Most often it is through the quiet whisperings of the Holy Ghost. If this has made you happy in the past, why replace it with nothing? Even if in the end of your life you find you were wrong, if it brought you happiness and made you a good person, so what? If you were to become an atheist, how would it make you a better person? Isn't there disbelief in a God just as impossible to prove as a belief in God? What's the difference, except this one makes you happy,and theirs offers only confusion?

Personally, I'd rather be happy, hoping uncertainly that there is a God who truly loves me, than to be smug in my personal opinion that there is no God nor purpose for my existence.

These guys are not confused in their belief. Why? Because they have grieved the Spirit and their conscience enough that they no longer can feel it whisper to them that God does exist.

But let me add my witness and testimony. I know God lives. I know that Jesus is the Christ. I know that they speak to us through the Holy Ghost. I have seen and experienced miracles and angels. I have studied these things deeply for decades and see many evidences that it must be true, for Joseph Smith could not have guessed right on so many things that we are now finding in archaeology, etc. All of this has brought me such intense joy that the atheists can never understand nor experience in their current state of disbelief.

[JudoMinja]

I can see where you are coming from in your doubts. We all have a point where we face a crisis of faith at least once in our lives. This crisis is either resolved, or we become lost. You are doing the right thing in trying to resolve your doubts and seek answers. The problem is that answers in matters of faith will never be entirely concrete, and faith is ultimately a choice.

We are all capabale of twisting our minds through series of thought and logic that will convince us to believe just about anything. We all want to believe something, even if it is a belief that there is nothing. We can never know with 100% certainty that our beliefs are correct. Even those who use strictly scientific methods to determine what they will and will not believe will find that they cannot stake 100% certainty on those beliefs.

Probably the best thing you can do right now is apply principles of BOTH logic AND faith to determine what it is you will believe in. Look at all the evidence you have on both sides of the spectrum, and pool it all together. Then offer yourself a test-

"By their fruits ye shall know them"- this is a simple scriptural concept, but it applies to more than just scripture. It can even be boiled down to logic and science. Essentially- look at the results to judge the overall system. Good things produce good results and bad things produce bad results. Do you find that good things come from the church? Then it is likely a good thing, even if you still have your doubts. Do you find that good comes from following church guidelines? Then those guidelines are likely good things, even if you still have your doubts. Etc, etc.

I also refer to a particular stream of logic when voicing my testimony- that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints finds at its core one very central event- the visitation of God the Father and Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith in the sacred grove. This visitation is either true or false. Either Joseph Smith was truly visited by Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son, or this entire church is a lie. Look at all the details we know about Joseph Smith's life and what he accomplished. If the simplest solution is usually the correct solution (another logical assumption), there is no possible way that this is a lie.

You must come to know this for yourself if you are to resolve your faith, and remember that you make a choice about what you will believe. When you know with a certainty that what you believe in is good and true, you will find that your faith becomes a part of you and it will not be shaken.

[Backroads]

I have never liked the term "brainwashed" and people throw around that word because they know it will get to people. Nobody likes to think of themselves as brainwashed. People like to think that they used their intelligence to make their own decisions. That's why calling someone brainwashed is such a powerful-but-nasty weapon.

My other critique of the word is that many people call anyone who does not believe exactly as they do "brainwashed". It's a way of closing off their own minds but acting like they are superior enough to use this term. They are right, and everyone else is wrong. It's completely hypocritical. People that do this are completely incapable of considering others' points of view.

As has been said, there is a lot of stuff that Mormons grow up with, taught are truth more or less, but really aren't. It is important to study and know the difference so you are not basing your testimony on hearsay.

I will say one other thing on that topic: THere seems to be two general groups of people that have not studied their beliefs. One group really just doesn't care much either way and is largely in this belief system out of habit or culture. The other believes it, but has never bothered to study it. That latter is possibly where any "brainwashed" messages can come in.

[beefche]

The other believes it, but has never bothered to study it. That latter is possibly where any "brainwashed" messages can come in.

Why? And how does that relate to D&C 46:14?

[Backroads]

Why? And how does that relate to D&C 46:14?

People who are adamantly stubborn about their beliefs without ever having even thought about their beliefs, why they believe that way, or even anything about them tend to be seen as, well, unknowledgeable.

I expect people in whatever religion to know about their religions. If they're just spouting off like a parrot, it's not very intelligent.

And where did D&C 46:14 come from?

[beefche]

Because you said "the others believe it without having studied it" makes me think of those people who believe on the words of others. D&C 46:14 is a description of one gift of the Spirit which is to believe on the words of others.

So, lumping all people who believe the words of others (which can include prophets, mom, dad, missionary, etc.) and saying that they are brainwashed goes against scripture.

I'm not doubting there are some who go to the extremes in their belief of other's words. We see that happening all the time, but the problem with lumping them altogether is it becomes problematic for those who have a gift of the Spirit and believes the words of others.

[Backroads]

Because you said "the others believe it without having studied it" makes me think of those people who believe on the words of others. D&C 46:14 is a description of one gift of the Spirit which is to believe on the words of others.

So, lumping all people who believe the words of others (which can include prophets, mom, dad, missionary, etc.) and saying that they are brainwashed goes against scripture.

I'm not doubting there are some who go to the extremes in their belief of other's words. We see that happening all the time, but the problem with lumping them altogether is it becomes problematic for those who have a gift of the Spirit and believes the words of others.

Not the way I see it. Even believing on the words of others is a form of studying and acceptance.

[beefche]

That's the thing. Before I questioned the church, I was happy. Yet suddenly these new viewpoints that have been given to me to ponder, make me unhappy. I feel that it's saying to keep going to church, but they argue that I'm simply used to going to church, which is why I feel unhappy when I question it.

I remember a time that I was having a crisis of faith. I had an extremely spiritual experience that taught me many things. But one of the things I learned was from Moroni 7:16. Essentially that teaches that the way to judge is to see if the thing brings us closer to Christ--if it does then it is good, if it doesn't then it is evil.

As I pondered that at that moment, I was reminded of the spiritual moments I had while reading the Book of Mormon and living the life that a Christian is taught to live. I was happy, I liked people, I was positive and optimistic. And then I was reminded of how I felt as I read the anti literature I was reading and wasn't living the life of a Christian. I was depressed, angry, didn't like people, negative.

Remember the fruits of the Spirit? As a member of Christ's kingdom on earth, you have been given the gift of the Holy Ghost--that means you have the right to rely on a member of the Godhead to lead and guide you. Listen to the Spirit--He will tell you those things that are right and true.

And I would suggest you immerse yourself in scriptures, prayer and fasting and avoid those things that make you unhappy as you search for your answers. I wish you the best.

[beefche]

Not the way I see it. Even believing on the words of others is a form of studying and acceptance.

You said:

I will say one other thing on that topic: THere seems to be two general groups of people that have not studied their beliefs. One group really just doesn't care much either way and is largely in this belief system out of habit or culture. The other believes it, but has never bothered to study it. That latter is possibly where any "brainwashed" messages can come in.

I'm not sure how you distinguished between those that have never studied it but believed it (brainwashed) and those that have never studied it but believed it (studied and not brainwashed). Your two statements above seem contradictory, to me.

[crashdown]

I haven't read all the posts so I may be a bit late to the party but here's something I don't understand. Why do people insist on calling knowledge/testimony/obedience brainwashing?

How can my testimony be brainwashing when I have formulated a hypothesis in my own mind (the church is true). I have done research from various sources (scriptures, other testimonies, people's ideas and opinions, church teaching, prophets, etc.) to find evidence to either support or refute my hypothesis. I have experimented with the research and claims, trying them myself (prayer, actually paying my tithing and expecting blessings, etc.). I have received confirmation, through my research and experimentation that my hypothesis is correct (witness of the Holy Ghost, receiving blessings from paying my tithing, etc).

How is this method considered brainwashing when it isn't that different from the scientific method employed by many of the most intelligent scientists around?

Also, another person's opinion is just that....an opinion. It is neither right nor wrong. It is just their ideas. To fully accept and endorse someone's ideas (even if it is your parents or church leaders) without fully weighing them or researching and considering other alternatives is just plain foolish to me!

So, yes. I heard what my parents and church leaders taught me. But I also put their words to the test. I tried them for myself and gained my own testimony. I am grateful for it and I am grateful for the process involved. It's fine if someone doesn't believe what I do. I will weigh their comments and discern for myself the truth. And I do the same thing at General Conference, on Sunday, and every time I study the scriptures.

P.S. I have a dear Atheist friend who helped me do some discerning concerning something my bishop told me. She was a wonderful source of knowledge and she greatly helped me.....and not once did she undermine my testimony or denigrate my beliefs!

[applepansy]

to OP: You should stop associating with people you make you doubt your faith in God. If you are still struggling then try doubting your doubts before abandoning your faith.

Best wishes