Apostasy and could it ever apply to us?

[pam]

I was researching some quotes to update my website and came across two quotes that jumped out at me concerning apostasy.

"I will give you one of the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom. It is an eternal principle that has existed with God from all Eternity that that man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is in the high road to apostasy and if he does not repent will apostatize as God lives."

— Joseph Smith, "The Words of Joseph Smith," p. 413

"Apostasy usually begins with question and doubt and criticism. It is a retrograding and devolutionary process. The seeds of doubt are planted by unscrupulous or misguided people, and seldom directed against the doctrine at first, but more often against the leaders."

— "The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball", p. 462

I've been with this site since 1999 and have seen lots of comments made by hundreds of people. Many are bitter because of personal experience with the Church and with Church leadership yet few state that they find fault with the doctrines of the Church.

We focus so much on the apostasy of the early church but how is apostasy thought of now in modern times?

We have been promised that there will never be another apostasy of The Church of Jesus Christ. However, that does not apply to individual members.

Elder Claudio D. Zivic says this concerning apostasy:

Conflicts between Church members can also lead to apostasy. Some individuals begin to think the Church is not true when they feel that a leader did not treat them well. They become offended and, without considering what they are losing, they stray from the Church.

Faultfinding can be another source of personal apostasy. When we look for faults in others or begin to think we could make better decisions than our leaders, we should remember the experience of Oliver Cowdery, the second elder of the Church.

Avoiding Personal Apostasy - Ensign June 2009

From the Teachings of the Presidents:

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young Chapter 12: Preventing Personal Apostasy

To use the old cliche..The gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect but man is not. I just find it disconcerting that people will give up on so many of the blessings of heaven because of triflings and often misguided feelings of hurt and betrayal.

This also goes with our comments of our own local leaders. Bishops, Stake Presidents, Elders Quorum Presidents, etc. We raise our hand to sustain them but do we really do that? As in the quotes I mentioned above, this is where the first steps to apostasy are taken.

And before anyone thinks this would NEVER happen to them..think again.

Edited April 12, 2011 by pam

[Guest saintish]

The problem is that church leaders DO make mistakes and for many people it is hard to distinguish between the leaders and the doctrine of the church. It is one of the clever tools of satan, he understands all too well second and third order effects. If satan can get a bishop or stake president to make even a small lapse in judgement, it is possible that the church could lose one member, and that member may take his/her spouse with them and then their children. until a whole generation has been lost to the church.

look at some areas of utah where people had generations of mormon ancestors all the way back to the pioneers and then something happened along the way and now they no longer go to church.

[RipplecutBuddha]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is perfect. The people in it, including the leaders, are not.

[Jennarator]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is perfect. The people in it, including the leaders, are not.

That's exactly what my dad always told me. When I am tempted to gossip or criticize, I think of that. Then I rememberI am also not perfect.

I think if we don't continually pray, read the scriptures, and go to church, keep a sincere heart, and serve others, we can easily fall into apaostity. I think it would easy to do.

[pam]

Unfortunately there are several threads going on right now that also prompted me to read more about this subject in addition to updating my website.

Edited April 12, 2011 by pam

[Backroads]

I remember a few months ago skimming a New Order Mormons forum. Many of those people are upset by the idea that we have to judge between what was a man's thoughts and what was legitimate revelation. They were quite snippy about it, too.

It is interesting, though. People leave the Church because they don't like something a leader said. They leave because of Church history. People even leave on good feelings just because "it's just not for them." You rarely hear of people leaving because of doctrines themselves.

[Suzie]

You rarely hear of people leaving because of doctrines themselves.

I think you are quite correct because when you talk with a lot of members you discover they come to Church for many reasons, most of them (in my personal experience) is because of social factors rather than doctrinal factors.

Also in my experience, few people know Church history and those "controversial" issues from the past that tend to make people go less active or doubt. So it isn't that they don't leave because of doctrinal issues, most of the time perhaps don't know about them or perhaps they heard about it and they think is anti-Mormon claims (when in fact is part of our history). However, with the invention of the internet things are changing VERY quickly.

[a1000tears]

Very good discussion. I don't always view criticism as a bad thing. It can also be a good thing. To criticize does not necessarily imply to find fault, but the word is often taken to mean the simple expression of an objection against prejudice, or a disapproval. and does not necessarily mean finding fault.

I think it's important to know the difference between the two when we are talking about apostasy. I think the way we present and handle any type of criticism is important. How else can we improve the way our teachers teach..or help our children correct bad behavior.

Too much criticism can be a bad thing if we do not recognize each other's innate value. There are people that can over-react to criticism and don't realize that it's a way to help people think about their own actions. I think if we look at criticism as a good thing, then we can learn to handle it much better.

[Jenamarie]

A young man gave an interesting testimony is my ward yesturday. He said that Heavenly Father and Satan use similar tools to bring about the fulfillment of their plan (of course, HF's Plan is the only one that will be entirely fulfilled, but that doesn't stop Satan from trying). His example was "By small and simple means, are great things brought to pass." Satan uses "small and simple" attacks to guide us towards apostasy and abandonment of our Heavenly blessings. When our Testimony is based on anything other than true faith in Christ, then it is easy for those "small and simple" things to chip away at our Testimonies.

Of course that doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to the controversial aspects of Church History or current church society. We MUST try to understand how some of the wrongs comitted back then were able to come about, and how some *now* are being comitted, so that course corrections can be made, and the work can continue, and history doesn't end up repeating itself. But just because Church members past or present make mistakes (even some real doozies), does not negate the truthfulness of the Gospel and the reality of Christ. And we need to make sure that we're not focusing so much on the mote in our brother's (or Bishop's) eye, that we're ignoring the beam in our own.

[pam]

Very good discussion. I don't always view criticism as a bad thing. It can also be a good thing. To criticize does not necessarily imply to find fault, but the word is often taken to mean the simple expression of an objection against prejudice, or a disapproval. and does not necessarily mean finding fault.

I think it's important to know the difference between the two when we are talking about apostasy. I think the way we present and handle any type of criticism is important. How else can we improve the way our teachers teach..or help our children correct bad behavior.

Too much criticism can be a bad thing if we do not recognize each other's innate value. There are people that can over-react to criticism and don't realize that it's a way to help people think about their own actions. I think if we look at criticism as a good thing, then we can learn to handle it much better.

But if the criticism we have of a church leader let's say, starts to affect our church attendance and particpation..that's where the concern should start to set in.

[Blackmarch]

I was researching some quotes to update my website and came across two quotes that jumped out at me concerning apostasy.

"I will give you one of the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom. It is an eternal principle that has existed with God from all Eternity that that man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is in the high road to apostasy and if he does not repent will apostatize as God lives."

— Joseph Smith, "The Words of Joseph Smith," p. 413

"Apostasy usually begins with question and doubt and criticism. It is a retrograding and devolutionary process. The seeds of doubt are planted by unscrupulous or misguided people, and seldom directed against the doctrine at first, but more often against the leaders."

— "The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball", p. 462

I've been with this site since 1999 and have seen lots of comments made by hundreds of people. Many are bitter because of personal experience with the Church and with Church leadership yet few state that they find fault with the doctrines of the Church.

We focus so much on the apostasy of the early church but how is apostasy thought of now in modern times?

We have been promised that there will never be another apostasy of The Church of Jesus Christ. However, that does not apply to individual members.

Elder Claudio D. Zivic says this concerning apostasy:

Conflicts between Church members can also lead to apostasy. Some individuals begin to think the Church is not true when they feel that a leader did not treat them well. They become offended and, without considering what they are losing, they stray from the Church.

Faultfinding can be another source of personal apostasy. When we look for faults in others or begin to think we could make better decisions than our leaders, we should remember the experience of Oliver Cowdery, the second elder of the Church.

Avoiding Personal Apostasy - Ensign June 2009

From the Teachings of the Presidents:

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young Chapter 12: Preventing Personal Apostasy

To use the old cliche..The gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect but man is not. I just find it disconcerting that people will give up on so many of the blessings of heaven because of triflings and often misguided feelings of hurt and betrayal.

This also goes with our comments of our own local leaders. Bishops, Stake Presidents, Elders Quorum Presidents, etc. We raise our hand to sustain them but do we really do that? As in the quotes I mentioned above, this is where the first steps to apostasy are taken.

And before anyone thinks this would NEVER happen to them..think again.

Keeping hate and/or pride with oneself always leads to an apostacy of some degree or another.

This often manifests as contention and criticism (of the wrong sort)...

[Connie]

"Apostasy usually begins with question and doubt and criticism. It is a retrograding and devolutionary process. The seeds of doubt are planted by unscrupulous or misguided people, and seldom directed against the doctrine at first, but more often against the leaders."

— "The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball", p. 462

For some reason his use of the words "at first" really stood out to me. That implies that at some point an apostate will begin to attack doctrine. I wonder at what point that happens. Maybe some just leave the church and never really get to that point of attacking doctrine? Or maybe some decide not to leave the church and try to change the doctrine from within? Hmmm... just seemed interesting to me.

[pam]

Interesting catch on that Connie. I don't believe that all that leave the church will attack doctrine. I've known many that have left the church due to hurt feelings etc but yet still defend the doctrine.

[bytor2112]

Many have left church activity because of being poorly treated by other members and leaders. Unwelcoming attitudes, back biting and gossip can put out the flame of a small or fledgling testimony. I wonder whom the Lord is more wroth with...the one who's feeling were hurt and left or the one who hurt the feelings without remorse or restitution?

[Backroads]

Many have left church activity because of being poorly treated by other members and leaders. Unwelcoming attitudes, back biting and gossip can put out the flame of a small or fledgling testimony. I wonder whom the Lord is more wroth with...the one who's feeling were hurt and left or the one who hurt the feelings without remorse or restitution?

No good comes from letting pain eat at you. We were commanded to forgive for our own sakes.

[The_Phoenix]

It can happen to anyone.

[bytor2112]

No good comes from letting pain eat at you. We were commanded to forgive for our own sakes.

Easy for someone who has a testimony and I dare say we are commanded to ask for forgivness as well. I serve as the EQP and in visiting in-active folks it seems to be a very common theme.

[classylady]

In several cases that I've been aware of, it seems that the apostate members were looking for excuses to leave. When you're looking for fault, you'll find it, because, simply put, our Bishops, Stake Presidents, Relief Society Presidents, etc., are human and imperfect. They have their weaknesses and imperfections just like us. The Lord uses us as His tools to build up His kingdom, and there is no requirement of perfection in order to serve--just a willingness. These wonderful men and women who are called to serve, did not ask or volunteer for these positions, but they do it willingly.

What bothers me, is I often don't see some of their imperfections, until someone else points it out to me. And then after I've heard the criticism, it's hard to get it out of my mind. I often wish, "Please just keep it to yourself."

[a1000tears]

As far as going inactive - there is always more to the story..it's often times easier to say I left because of so and so..but I usually find it's much more than that. We need to also be mindful that not everyone leaves because of apostasy, there are cases of unrighteous dominion out there and nobody is going to bring that up in a conversation..instead they will say something of a lesser value. Is it right to say something one way or another? Hard to say because everyone could have a different experience.

I think apostasy happens when our hearts have become hardened and there is no hope for change left. It can be gradual, but I believe that as long as there is hope for someone to change, then I'll have faith that that person will change. Besides, I'm in no position to judge. Trust me, I've made plenty of mistakes in my life and I would hope that people still had faith that I could change and grow for the better.

[JudoMinja]

Thank you so much for this post Pam. I want to address a couple of your quotes in particular:

"Apostasy usually begins with question and doubt and criticism. It is a retrograding and devolutionary process. The seeds of doubt are planted by unscrupulous or misguided people, and seldom directed against the doctrine at first, but more often against the leaders."

— "The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball", p. 462

I think nearly every member goes through a period of these questions, doubts, and criticisms. Of course converts, those who investigate the church and join as adults, must go through this process to even find the church. They ask questions, they have their doubts and criticisms, and they seek to have them addressed. The difference between the investigator that joins though and the investigator that decides "this isn't for me" is in those doubts and criticisms.

I've found that from every convert story I've heard from a member now fully entrenched in the gospel with a strong testimony there was a common theme. Each of these members had doubts that they could not get firm answers on, but instead of focusing on those doubts they focused on the core message of the gospel and prayed. They sought personal revelation to decide whether or not this church is true, and when they received a confirmation they decided not to let their doubts bother them. Those who never converted or who converted and later turned away let those doubts be the focus instead of their faith.

Members who grow up in the church typically go through a period like this as well (most around college age). Some of them fall away completely. Others find that they were able to address their doubts and came back, or simply gave up on those doubts turning instead to their personal testimony of the church, as the converts did.

Doubting is a natural part of being human and science tells us that doubt is good. Doubt leads to questions and questions lead to finding answers. We must be careful, however, about where we go to seek those answers. Though some doubting can be a good thing, leading us to seek out greater knowledge, too much is most definitely bad for us. Doubts and fears reflect an absense of faith, and without faith there can be no testimony.

Elder Claudio D. Zivic says this concerning apostasy:

Conflicts between Church members can also lead to apostasy. Some individuals begin to think the Church is not true when they feel that a leader did not treat them well. They become offended and, without considering what they are losing, they stray from the Church.

My family is full of examples of this. My mother, for instance, was offended by the gossip rampant in her ward when she became a victim of that gossip. Though her offense has not caused her to leave the church, she has "left" Relief Society and does not participate in activities, will not allow visiting teachers in her home, and prefers to do her own visiting teaching by only sending letters to those on her list. She is the small example in my family- of one who was offended but chose to keep her faith and work with that offense to maintain activity in the church.

My own "moment of apostacy" started with a YW leader. I had brought a lesbian investigator friend with me to church. She had problems at home with abuse and went to anger management. She was drawn to me at school because of my "sweet spirit" (her words) and calm, accepting nature. I did not judge her and she wanted to know what made me the way I was. I shared my faith with her, and she was intrigued. She started coming to church activities completely on her own, totally interested in the church. However, she also dressed immodestly, had short crew-cut hair, and tended to wander on her own with a couple of the other YW when an activity was not interesting to her.

The current YW leader saw a problem and thought this girl was leading her "flock" away. She talked the bishop into confronting her about her dress and appearance, and after that she stopped coming. Her offense hurt me as well, and I blamed this YW leader. This feeling festered and I started having more and more doubts about the church and finally became inactive during my college years. I am glad I refound my faith and returned a stronger person, but it could easily have gone the other way.

Then there is my older brother. He sought to take out his endowment before going to basic training for the army. He was denied that, because the stake president at the time just felt he wasn't ready. However, someone else told my brother he could have had his endowment session if he'd been going on a mission. This caused him to feel offended. How could he be denied his endowment for not going on a mission when he was going to be serving his country? He fell further and further from there. Currently, he is excommunicated. He does not doubt the doctrine and still defends it, but he is at odds with church leadership and not ready to work out his repentance. He may never be ready.

This is a far too common pattern. The problem is not in the leadership or the church, but in the individuals. We are falling victim to the tools Satan uses to destroy our faith. Doubt, fear, insecurity, pride, anger, and offense. The world is perfectly staged to help him along. We are taught that faith = ignorance, obedience = brainwashing, humility = weak. The world would have us believe that we SHOULD take offense over little things, that we SHOULD be prideful and spiteful, and that we SHOULD turn away from anything and everyone who makes us feel slighted. Sometimes, it is hard to see past these lies.

In a world where good is bad and bad is good, many people will fall away. I think the world as a whole still lives in a state of apostacy, and we as individuals often tread the border when we let the ways of the world get to us. Living the gospel is not going to get any easier and it will take a strong commitment to avoid becoming a victim of this- one of the worst pitfalls.

[pam]

In a world where good is bad and bad is good, many people will fall away. I think the world as a whole still lives in a state of apostacy, and we as individuals often tread the border when we let the ways of the world get to us. Living the gospel is not going to get any easier and it will take a strong commitment to avoid becoming a victim of this- one of the worst pitfalls.

I truly believe we will see more and more apostasize as we get closer to the second coming of Christ. It will basically be a weeding out of the wheat and the tares so to speak.

[Blackmarch]

I truly believe we will see more and more apostasize as we get closer to the second coming of Christ. It will basically be a weeding out of the wheat and the tares so to speak.

true that.

[RescueMom]

Sometimes it's less painful outside the walls of Jerusalem. Sometimes it's not as black and white as some would seem to believe.

Let us remember even Alma the Younger was apostate at one time. I do not believe that God wants any of his children lost, ever. And that members must be even more compassionate and less gossips, less hurtful to those struggling, and less ostracizing to those who have doubts and who are sinners.

I believe God the Father does not want any of us to be tares, and instead of coming down on someone who is struggling with self-righteous prideful words, perhaps we should approach them with humility instead.

Church should be a hospital for sinners, not a social gathering for saints.

And yes I do believe there will be more apostasy, but I don't believe it will be the humble that will become apostate.

[Suzie]

, and less ostracizing to those who have doubts and who are sinners.

Because they are sinners themselves as well.

Just like someone said on a blog, if we want people to stop thinking about ourselves as self-righteous, we need to stop being self righteous.

[swampgeek]

No good comes from letting pain eat at you. We were commanded to forgive for our own sakes.

"Resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it will kill your enemies." --Nelson Mandela

One of my all time favorite quotes. Most profound and very true...