LDS View on Occultism?

[Guest saintish]

I'm trying to find quotes and references to how the church views occultism but more spicifically the topics of: conjure, magic, astrology, necromancy and spiritualism.

I know at the turn of the turn of the 19th century the church strongly dissaproved necromancy (it was a bit of a fad at that time) but i cant find any refernces.

also any insight as to whether these things are considered "of satan" or if the tap into some sort of universal principals that we shouldn't mess with until we are exalted and given those keys?

thanks in advance for your thoughtful replies, i hope this topic provides for an interesting conversation.

[JudoMinja]

I don't have any quotes or know what the official LDS view is on the topic, but here's my take:

I believe that the use of any power other than the Priesthood is "of Satan". The power itself may not come directly from the devil, but he twists it to his advantage and some of it does come from him. Anything we would think of as "magic" is like a counterfeit of Priesthood power. Such will have its limits and cannot be wholly trustworthy, since Lucifer will attempt to use it to ensnare us and pull us away from the Lord. It is dangerous to toy with it. Those who practice magic may not necessarily be devil worshippers and may use their "power" for good, but their practice is sorely misplaced. Anything that can be done with "magic" can be done through the proper channels of the Priesthood.

[estradling75]

I believe Isaiah 8 :19 summarizes the position pretty well

19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Basically it is sure they might have some power, but you are better off turning to God for your miracle needs.

I did have a very interesting discussion with a Chaos mage while online a while back.

[Captain_Curmudgeon]

Astrology, on the other hand, is just silly. No Satan Required.

[NeuroTypical]

Typical pessimistic virgo, no doubt.

(Actually, I love Weird Al Yankovik's stunning defense of astrology. Here- say this in one breath, in 4/4 time:)

Now you may find it inconceivable or at the very least a bit unlikely that the relative position of the planets and the stars could have a special deep significance or meaning that exclusively applies to only you, but let me give you my assurance that these forecasts and predictions are all based on solid, scientific, documented evidence, so you would have to be some kind of moron not to realize that every single one of them is absolutely true.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[JudoMinja]

Haha, LM. I love that song. According to Weird Al I am Lord of the Dance.

[Backroads]

I'm sure if you wanted to you can call some of the early practices in the church "occultism"... but I imagine those very things were via the priesthood which, as mentioned, the only valid path through these things.

A few summers back at camp a lady came up for Woodbadge who was Mormon, yet also liked to work with tarot and see auras and stuff like that. One fellow staffer listened to her a lot, then asked me to order a book for him which I later referred to as the Mormon occult book. I can't remember for the life of me what it was called and just might have to go through my Amazon orders to see... it was a very strange looking book...

[blackknight5k]

I'm sure if you wanted to you can call some of the early practices in the church "occultism"... but I imagine those very things were via the priesthood which, as mentioned, the only valid path through these things.

A few summers back at camp a lady came up for Woodbadge who was Mormon, yet also liked to work with tarot and see auras and stuff like that. One fellow staffer listened to her a lot, then asked me to order a book for him which I later referred to as the Mormon occult book. I can't remember for the life of me what it was called and just might have to go through my Amazon orders to see... it was a very strange looking book...

Please do, I'd like to know what this book is and what it's about.

I have a friend who's really into the occult. He reads on everything from voodoo to shamanism and beyond. He has a little alter and some other weird stuff in his home. He believes in demons, ghosts, and whatever. Strange enough, he also claims to be related to Harold B Lee but has never been a member of the church.

I have to say that he is plagued by spirits bothering him. Everywhere he lives is haunted - and I don't mean "haha that creaking is creepy" but more stuff flying off the shelves. At one time I did something that one of them didn't "like" and it annoyed me until I left. It started with feeling like a cold spirit went through my body, then tried to push me out of the house.

I honestly believe with Joseph Smith said about evil things existing, but to not talk about them and let them be and they will stay out of our lives. He isn't the only one who does this in his group of friends, all of them seem to be pestered by spirits at all times. I'm the only one who doesn't. Are they lying/making it up? I don't think all of them are, I know he isn't for sure, but a few of them probably are.

[Blackmarch]

I'm trying to find quotes and references to how the church views occultism but more spicifically the topics of: conjure, magic, astrology, necromancy and spiritualism.

I know at the turn of the turn of the 19th century the church strongly dissaproved necromancy (it was a bit of a fad at that time) but i cant find any refernces.

also any insight as to whether these things are considered "of satan" or if the tap into some sort of universal principals that we shouldn't mess with until we are exalted and given those keys?

thanks in advance for your thoughtful replies, i hope this topic provides for an interesting conversation.

well I can sum it up in three words:

Don't do it.

[Guest saintish]

well I can sum it up in three words:

Don't do it.

thats all fine and good, i'm not into that stuff anyway. but, i would still like to see some official quotes from church officials.

[Connie]

Not sure how much more official you can get than scripture. And since estradling already quoted Isaiah 8:19 above, i'll just go ahead and offer the institute manual commentary on that verse.

(13-51) Isaiah 8:19 . Warning against Familiar Spirits, Peepers, and Mutterers

The expression “familiar spirits” is not an accurate term to convey the significance of the Hebrew term used anciently. The Hebrew word ‘ob means “a leather bottle or bag” (see William Gesenius, A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, p. 15). This object was used by the practitioners of necromancy, a deceptive craft of pretended communication with the dead. The art involved a kind of ventriloquism wherein the voice or message of the “departed spirits” was called forth from the bag or sometimes a pit. (See G. Johannes Botterweck and Helmer Ringgren, Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, 1:131, 133–34.) The peeping (chirping) and muttering (twittering) somewhat like birds was intended to invoke the departed spirits or to convey the pretended message (see Young, Book of Isaiah, 1:318). The Lord warned Israel and Judah of such deceptions early in their history (see Leviticus 19:31 ; 20:27 ; Deuteronomy 18:10–11 ). President Joseph Fielding Smith in commenting on these ancient practices gave this warning that applies even today:

“To seek for information through . . . any way contrary to the instruction the Lord has given is a sin. The Lord gave positive instruction to Israel when they were in the land of their inheritance that they were to go to him for revelation and to avoid the devices prevalent among the heathen nations who occupied their lands. . . .

“All through the Bible, the New Testament as well as the Old, the Lord and his prophets have expressed their displeasure when the people turned from the Lord to ‘familiar spirits.’” ( Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:33.)

Link

[Guest saintish]

Great reference, although it asserts that it was a "pretended" practice. does this mean that the church believes that all necomancy is fake or is there ever a case when someone is actually talking to spirits (this may be opening a can of worms)

[estradling75]

Great reference, although it asserts that it was a "pretended" practice. does this mean that the church believes that all necomancy is fake or is there ever a case when someone is actually talking to spirits (this may be opening a can of worms)

Ultimately for sources of power you have God, Satan and those who followed him, and then mankind.

From mankind you are going to get the pretenders, the fakes, the tricksters. From Satan and his followers you get some real power but there whole motivation is to pull you away from God so while the will be real they are really entirely poisonous to the eternal welfare to those who get pulled in to believing them.

Thus the stance to stay way... Because at a minimum there is nothing, but they can be dangerous in a very real way.

[JudoMinja]

Even those tapping into real power are "pretending" in that their power is conterfeit to that of God.

You can certainly find some "real" things in the occult. The problem is that real does not equal good. The Lord has told us how to approach Him and appeal to Him to use His power for our good. To go against that is to show a lack of faith, that He will guide us on the path that is best and to start messing with some dangerous forces, as Satan will be glad to "answer" our entreaties in order to slowly lead us away to our own destruction.

[classylady]

thats all fine and good, i'm not into that stuff anyway. but, i would still like to see some official quotes from church officials.

Here are a few quotes from church officials:

James E. Faust "The Great Imitator" Ensign Nov, 1987, 33

"It is not good practice to become intrigued by Satan and his mysteries. No good can come from getting close to evil. Like playing with fire, it is too easy to get burned: “The knowledge of sin tempteth to its commission” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939, p. 373). The only safe course is to keep well distanced from him and any of his wicked activities or nefarious practices. The mischief of devil worship, sorcery, casting spells, witchcraft, voodooism, black magic, and all other forms of demonism should be avoided like the plague."

Boyd K. Packer "To Young Women and Men" Ensign, May 1989, 54

"A warning: there is a dark side to spiritual things. In a moment of curiosity or reckless bravado some teenagers have been tempted to toy with Satan worship. Don’t you ever do that! Don’t associate with those who do! You have no idea of the danger! Leave it alone! And there are other foolish games and activities that are on that dark side. Leave them alone!"

From the Aaronic Priesthood Manual 2, (1993) Lesson 11: Satan and His Temptations

"The young men should understand the reality of Satan, but you should not talk too much about him or relate personal experiences with the power of evil. Avoid discussing the occult. If the young men bring up such subjects as Ouija boards, séances, spiritualism, or Satan worship, you should tell them that such things are tools of Satan and that we have been counseled to avoid them completely. Then direct the discussion back to the lesson."

Are any of these references what you are looking for?

[Backroads]

Here is that book...

Amazon.com: To Him That Believeth (9781555173364): Frederick Babbel, June Babbel: Books

Keep in mind, I never read it. I just ordered it for the kid. It was just.. interesting... after all he had heard from this lady, and it left me wondering.

[Guest saintish]

Great stuff Classylady, thanks

[classylady]

Here's another reference: Handbook 2 Church Policies

21.4.8

Occult Affiliation

Church members should not engage in any form of Satan worship or affiliate in any way with the occult. “Such activities are among the works of darkness spoken of in the scriptures. They are designed to destroy one’s faith in Christ, and will jeopardize the salvation of those who knowingly promote this wickedness. These things should not be pursued as games, be topics in Church meetings, or be delved into in private, personal conversations” (First Presidency letter, Sept. 18, 1991).

[john doe]

I'm trying to find quotes and references to how the church views occultism but more spicifically the topics of: conjure, magic, astrology, necromancy and spiritualism.

I know at the turn of the turn of the 19th century the church strongly dissaproved necromancy (it was a bit of a fad at that time) but i cant find any refernces.

also any insight as to whether these things are considered "of satan" or if the tap into some sort of universal principals that we shouldn't mess with until we are exalted and given those keys?

thanks in advance for your thoughtful replies, i hope this topic provides for an interesting conversation.

We're against it. And yes, feel free to quote me directly on that.

[pam]

We're against it. And yes, feel free to quote me directly on that.

Oh yes that works. Quote from "John Doe"

[threepercent]

this site is dedicated to combating the evils of occult practice and new age spiritualism. of great interest is the source of these things.

Father Thy Will Be Done

[gruden]

ClassyLady's post is all you need. The person who runs the website linked before me tends to think that going into the details of the occult practice in question somehow helps. I tend to agree with the Pres. Faust quote, which is not to focus on that stuff at all. Going into detail about occultic practices can be counter-productive, because sometimes it arouses interest in things that should be left alone, even if the intent is to say it's bad.

But I suppose leaving things simply at a stern warning doesn't sell books or bring web site visitors.

[HEthePrimate]

LDS view on occultism?

You will be cast into Outer Darkness for looking at this tarot card!

This particular card is triply evil, because it combines three evil influences--the Tarot, Lucius Malfoy, and the Devil!

Bwahahahahah!

[Obolus]

But I suppose leaving things simply at a stern warning doesn't sell books or bring web site visitors.

The other thing a stern warning doesn't do is address the issue at hand, which for many curious people in the church means that they will conduct a private exploration of the occult that is mediated by magicians, diviners, and occult enthusiasts instead of people with a testimony of the Gospel. Talks like Faust's are perfect for members who were never curious about it in the first place, but for those like myself it simply adds wood to the fire.

Without explaining specifics, I will say that a helpful thing to tell members who are curious about the occult is that the use of magic, tarot, astrology, alchemy and other such practices rose to prominence during the Apostasy. All of them are concerned, on one level or another, with aligning yourself with nature, the cosmos, and the mysteries of God... which makes sense when you realize that the Apostasy was the period when the temple (and the authority to preside over the ordinances therein) were taken from the earth. The Catholics and the other Christian sects all abandoned temple worship because the authority was gone and the rites (though extant in some forms in the masonic tradition) were corrupted and unreliable.

But this abandonment didn't stop common people from attempting to replace the temple with other mysteries which all basically have the same goal in mind: a connection to mysterious powers beyond the veil. Consequently, all of the supposed powers gained from these traditions mimic the gifts of God: Astrology mimics the temple's concern with the cosmos and the meaning of the human being within it. Tarot mimics personal revelation and prophecy. Alchemy serves as an allegory that mimics the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel (turning lead to gold eschews perfection through an atonement), magic/wicca mimics the Priesthood.

Yes, all of them are counterfeits. But for some kids, specifically those who may become curious because of an association with something from popular culture like Harry Potter, a simple "don't go near it" isn't going really address their questions. To say as much merely applies a band-aid to a curiosity that can potentially take someone's life over. So depending on the individual, you may want to have a healthy discussion that explains why these things got popular in the first place. All of it is related to power, and the power that you want your kids to tap into is that offered by the Gospel, the Holy Ghost and the Lord.

If I had had someone in my life who had a spine with regards to discussing these things I would have spent a lot less time exploring them myself. An excellent article that helped me understand the occult and stop giving so much energy to it was One Eternal Round: The Hermetic Version by Hugh Nibley. Amazingly enough, this article is widely available in his book Temple and the Cosmos.

[RipplecutBuddha]

I once played a game of poker with a tarot deck. I got a full house and six people were paralyzed for a week. (just a joke....)