As man is, god once was...

[Zerossoul]

Hi, I've recently had a discussion with someone who had an issue with this statement. The statement is,

'As man is, God once was. As God is, Man may become.'

I personally know very little about this statement, only that it was recorded words form the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Her problem with this is that, "God is God because he is perfect. How can something, like us who is not perfect, become perfect?"

Also, she has heard that in our faith, 'Jesus and Satan are Brothers', which is of course causing a lot of skepticism. Is this true? In a way, I think yes. We are all Spirit children of the same God, but what is different about Christ? he being the 'only begotten son'. What is the difference between being 'the only begotten son' and being 'spirit children'? Would it be saying the same thing if I said 'we are Christ's brother'? (not that I ever would).

I've done some research into these questions, but am unable to produce time to do enough research. regardless, I am praying and reading scriptures. perhaps posting this thread will speed up the proccess.

[Vort]

Why do we seem suddenly to have a bunch of new people who haven't posted coming on here and throwing around the standard anti-Mormon lies we've all heard so much?

Hi, I've recently had a discussion with someone who had an issue with this statement. The statement is,

'As man is, God once was. As God is, Man may become.'

I personally know very little about this statement, only that it was recorded words form the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Then you know even less than you think. Joseph Smith did not say this; Lorenzo Snow did.

Her problem with this is that, "God is God because he is perfect. How can something, like us who is not perfect, become perfect?"

Ask "your friend" why the Lord commanded us to be perfect, even as our Father in heaven is perfect, in Matthew 5:48.

Also, she has heard that in our faith, 'Jesus and Satan are Brothers', which is of course causing a lot of skepticism. Is this true?

This is the typical absurd nonsense you get from anti-Mormons. The antis put great stock on the idea that Christ is "uncreated" and therefore not a creation of God. The whole "God's Son" business they dismiss as figurative talk (contrary to the Bible's clear teaching). They do violence to the word of God, then condemn us for doing violence to God's word because we refuse to follow them in their false teachings.

I've done some research into these questions, but am unable to produce time to do enough research. regardless, I am praying and reading scriptures. perhaps posting this thread will speed up the proccess.

No, it will not. You will need to study and pray for your whole life, just like everyone else. There are answers, but you will never get them without giving the necessary effort.

[LDSJewess]

Quote "I've done some research into these questions, but am unable to produce time to do enough research. regardless, I am praying and reading scriptures. perhaps posting this thread will speed up the proccess." End Quote

Please do not take this as talking down to you but how much research can you possibly have done? You are 21 years old. Why do you need to speed up the process? What is the big hurry? Perhaps it is the instant gratification mentality of your generation.

There are many many wonderful blessings awaiting you, and yes I beleive that with much study, prayer and putting God's word into practice that we can become perfect. We have an eternity to accomplish that though. We are not talking about doing a little research and viola we suddenly become perfect like God. Enjoy your life, study, read, pray, gain a testimony and then study, read, pray and keep on progressing. It is a work in progress and there is no high speed quick fix way to accomplish Heavenly Father's plan. All these things will be revealed to you in Heaven;ly Father's time, not ours, so meanwhile make sure your mind and heart is in the right place and enjoy the journey.

[Just_A_Guy]

Hi Zerosoul -

You'll have to forgive Vort's strident answer; we do hear these things an awful lot. But please rest assured that we're more than happy to answer them again for sincere questioners.

That said, the answers Vort gives are substantively correct. I would just add the following:

'As man is, God once was. As God is, Man may become.'

It is correct that Lorenzo Snow (a contemporary of Joseph Smith's, and later a leader of the LDS Church) coined this expression. However, the sentiments and theology behind it are almost certainly Smith's.

"God is God because he is perfect. How can something, like us who is not perfect, become perfect?"

This is all speculation--we don't purport to know exactly what God was like, or what He did, before He became God. That said, hypothetically speaking: The fact that God is perfect now does not necessarily mean He was always so. When you bake a cake, you take a liquid (batter), put it through a precise chemical reaction, and wind up with a solid. Try as you might, you'll never turn that cake back into batter. But it does not follow that because the cake is now cake, and will ever be so; that it never was batter at any point in its history.

What is the difference between being 'the only begotten son' and being 'spirit children'?

Each of us has two components: our body and our spirit, or soul. Our bodies are created when we are born here on earth and were directly created by our parents; but our spirits have existed for eons and were directly created by God Himself.

We believe that, like ourselves, Jesus' spirit was created by God the Father. Satan's spirit was similarly created by God the Father; but Satan rebelled against God before being born on this earth and so he will forever remain a disembodied spirit. Since all spirits were created by God, we are all one big (dysfunctional?) family and all of us--including Jesus and Satan--are technically brothers and sisters. The accusation that we believe Satan and Jesus to be brothers is thus semantically correct; but misleading in that it suggests we believe Satan was begotten of God the same way Jesus was.

When Jesus is referred to as the "only begotten", that appellation refers to his physical body. To put it more colloquially: Jesus is the only person on earth who, if you ran his DNA, would test as being biologically the Son of God.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[RipplecutBuddha]

along with what else has been said, let me add that the study of any relgion requires a lot of time; even the religion one accepts as true. There is no shortcut, and there is no speeding up of the process. If you or your friend are sincere about finding the answers to these statements, you will need to earn them just as any of us has to.

The idea that God was not always God is not official LDS Doctrine, as the scriptures do not spell such an idea out plainly. There are verses that suggest such could be the case. Along with the teachings of Lorenzo Snow, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and others, the idea is a popular belief that I feel is correct. This conclusion took time for me to reach. Time spent studying the bible in detail, studying the Book of Mormon, and the words of modern prophets.

The 'Jesus and Satan are brothers' issue is a misconstruction of our beliefs done deliberately to set us directly against protestant beliefs. Yes we do believe they are brothers, just as we also believe Jesus is our eldest brother. Since we believe that God created all inteligent spirits as his children, Both Christ and Satan would of necessity be siblings along with all of mankind. However there are significant differences between us and Christ that place him far and above us in every way.

He is our brother, but most importantly, he is our Savior. We will answer to Christ for our faith and obedience in order to claim the salvation he has extended to us. Because of what he has done for us, we worship him and pray to the Father in his name. All that is done in the LDS Church is done in the name of Jesus Christ; prayers, blessings, priesthood ordinances, and temple ordinances.

Satan, on the other hand, is also quite different from us despite being a brother of ours in spirit. Because he rebelled against God, he lost many blessings that we enjoy, such as the chance to return to live with God again.

[Latter Days Guy]

I like what the Traveller has said about the 'As man is, God once was. As God is, Man may become.' In fact I liked it so much it's my signature!

Edited June 8, 2011 by GB-UK

[pam]

Could we please try and just answer the questions instead of immediately assuming that someone is lying or their statements are false?

This site's mission is to help further the gospel. It doesn't help that people are immediately attacked and talked down to when asking a question.

Until we see any reason to think otherwise, please everyone stop assuming that questions are meant with ill intent.

[Zerossoul]

Thank you for defending the little man Pam!

And Thank you all for your informative answers. If I have any more questions, I'll make another forum post.

And everyone (at least 3 of you) seems to have one problem with my post...

No, it will not. You will need to study and pray for your whole life, just like everyone else. There are answers, but you will never get them without giving the necessary effort.

Please do not take this as talking down to you but how much research can you possibly have done? You are 21 years old. Why do you need to speed up the process? What is the big hurry? Perhaps it is the instant gratification mentality of your generation.

along with what else has been said, let me add that the study of any relgion requires a lot of time; even the religion one accepts as true. There is no shortcut, and there is no speeding up of the process. If you or your friend are sincere about finding the answers to these statements, you will need to earn them just as any of us has to.

In defense, I am simply saying, "why find answers myself when the question has already been answered?" I think there is wisdom in asking someone who already knows. Or am I mistaken? Of course it takes a life time to find some answers, and I'm patient 99% of the time(a certain gift of the spirit I have), except when I cannot be.

And as far as my time constraints, I will soon be serving a mission, And someone that I know needs these answers, and will only receive them if they are from me. She is also half way around the world and seldom on Facebook, our only means of communication. I have been bending over backwards for her trying my hardest to show her that this church is true.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Zerossoul

[pam]

Have you already received your mission call?

[Blackmarch]

Hi, I've recently had a discussion with someone who had an issue with this statement. The statement is,

'As man is, God once was. As God is, Man may become.'

I personally know very little about this statement, only that it was recorded words form the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Her problem with this is that, "God is God because he is perfect. How can something, like us who is not perfect, become perfect?"

my response would be , a being that has the power to do anything would have the power to make something imperfect to a perfect state. And he does it in small steps over a long period of time.

Also, she has heard that in our faith, 'Jesus and Satan are Brothers', which is of course causing a lot of skepticism. Is this true? In a way, I think yes. We are all Spirit children of the same God, but what is different about Christ? he being the 'only begotten son'. What is the difference between being 'the only begotten son' and being 'spirit children'? Would it be saying the same thing if I said 'we are Christ's brother'? (not that I ever would).

Christ is the only begotten son, because he is the Chosen one, and has been the only one to be born into this world the way he was, and was the only who could save us all.

I've done some research into these questions, but am unable to produce time to do enough research. regardless, I am praying and reading scriptures. perhaps posting this thread will speed up the proccess.

yes they were brothers, they were brothers to all of us -we were all spirit children of God, even Christ and satan. Christ was the first, and the one who loved us and was willing to sacrifice himself so that his brothers and sisters may become perfect.. where as satan wanted to save people by enslaving them, but he rebelled against God when God chose Christ.

[Zerossoul]

Have you already received your mission call?

No, I actually have not yet sent them. We are encountering problems where I cannot get my Physical/Dental examination until we are back in Utah. The second issue is figuring out whether or not we can send them from Utah since my membership records are in Japan. Regardless, I am thinking the Lord is delaying this on purpose. No one knows the mysteries of God.

[pam]

Sounds like you have an interesting story..quite a distance between Utah and Japan.

[Zerossoul]

Sounds like you have an interesting story..quite a distance between Utah and Japan.

Indeed. My Mother started teaching for the Department of Defense schools about 2 years ago, because the Economy in Utah is not so great at the moment. She was a music teacher, and that is, unfortunately, one of the first positions to be cut. Her job security was not looking so good. Now we're in Japan with lots of wonderful Missionary opportunities, and great Financial security!

[pam]

What a great opportunity. I know what you mean about those kinds of teaching positions being cut in Utah. That's where I live right now.

Anyway..I hope you get your question answered so that you can help your friend out. And everything works out so you don't miss out on that chance to go on a mission.

[RipplecutBuddha]

I apologize if my comments put you on the defensive. It wan't my intent in any way. Instead, well let me put it this way. I was at the same point you are, and I reached the same conclusion, that these comments surely have been answered before, so what were they?

Soon enough I did find the answers, but somehow it wasn't enough. It wasn't until I realized that I already knew the statements themselves were off the mark, I just didn't understand why they were. In order for me to understand the why behind what I knew, I had to study it out for myself. I had to make finding the answers part of my testimony.

Finally, as you are preparing to serve a mission, I would like to share some advice with you regarding anti-mormon situations.

First of all, I am not saying that your discussion in your OP was with an anti-mormon. However, those two issues, the progression of Godhood and the relation between Christ and Satan have both been commonly used by anti-mormons for quite a long time, and chances are good you'll hear them in the mission field if you are called to a mission in the US.

One key to dealing with them is something I realized in my search. Nearly all of the arguments that anti-mormons use were originated while Joseph Smith was still alive. They were false then, and they were answered then. Nothing has changed in 180 years, so you personally have no responsability to answer them now. The only new argument would be the whole DNA issue, and even that one has been answered clearly.

Secondly, and really this is the crux of the whole issue, you have to prepare to keep anti-mormon literature and discussions in the proper place. On the one hand it is important that you find the answers to these questions and others you will hear from people you meet or come up with yourself during your mission. The good news is that you will have a lot of time for personal study to gain this. On the other hand it is extremely unwise to engage an anti-mormon in a discussion as a missionary, and all missionaries are counciled to avoid such confrontations up to and including walking away from the situation.

While sincere investigators will ask about these things, others will pose as sincere investigators when they really just want to debate and argue in order to confound your words. You will need the Holy Ghost with you to tell the difference sometimes, which leads me to my third point.

Thirdly, as a missionary you will need to rely on the Holy Ghost constantly for several reasons aside from avoiding contention. The biggest part of your preparation (and this is advice I got from several return missionaries as I prepared for my mission) will be learning how to keep the Spirit with you, and how to listen when it prompts you and speaks to you.

For now you can do a lot of research at FARMS, or the Neal A. Maxwell Institute, where much of the research into these questions is found. Keep praying and studying the scriptures, and God will help you with the rest.

May God be with you as you serve him. You will have an experience to treasure for the rest of your life. :)

[Zerossoul]

Thank you much for your advice, RipplecutBuddha. I'll need every last bit that I can get a hold of.

[prisonchaplain]

Just to affirm our OP's questions...I would suspect that missionaries will get these questions quite often. Snow's statement is indeed a great stumbling block for non-LDS folk like myself. The converations can become very complex and challenging. The nature of God, of Christ, of humanity are huge issues. Our disagreements are substantive. The reality that some "counter-cult" groups have turned these issues into sensational caricature should not distract from seeking out answers. One book I would recommend, that gets more to the basic doctrinal issues is: How Wide the Divide - A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation. It is co-written by Prof. Blomberg (Denver Seminary - Evangelical) and Prof. Robinson (BYU, LDS). They are respectful, and yet do not sweep disagreements under the rug. The book is substantive, and yet approachable. I'm about to order a few more copies to use in my ministry.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Now, if only your ministry were in Wyoming...

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hi, I've recently had a discussion with someone who had an issue with this statement. The statement is,

'As man is, God once was. As God is, Man may become.'

I personally know very little about this statement, only that it was recorded words form the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Her problem with this is that, "God is God because he is perfect. How can something, like us who is not perfect, become perfect?"

Also, she has heard that in our faith, 'Jesus and Satan are Brothers', which is of course causing a lot of skepticism. Is this true? In a way, I think yes. We are all Spirit children of the same God, but what is different about Christ? he being the 'only begotten son'. What is the difference between being 'the only begotten son' and being 'spirit children'? Would it be saying the same thing if I said 'we are Christ's brother'? (not that I ever would).

I've done some research into these questions, but am unable to produce time to do enough research. regardless, I am praying and reading scriptures. perhaps posting this thread will speed up the proccess.

It is as the story of the prodigal son or the lost sheep...

If we are fortunate enough to inherit all that God has, entering into the Celestial Kingdom, which one of His possessions will that person not have?

Almost anything that I learn in this life is based on the learning of many others that came before me. The very language we are using right now is from things learned a very long time ago and yet I claim that I know it.

One of the aspects of God that we are supposed to develop an appreciation for is the idea of finding joy in family, we are united as one family under covenants in this religion. By doing this we also benefit from everyone's achievements, both in the past and in the future. Just like when I am proud of my son when he returns with a good report card at the end of the year. In that same way, we can become glorified in God and He in us, as Jesus wanted it to be. He expressed His desire for us to be "one" in Him as He is "one" in the Father.

At the moment a person becomes "one" with the Father and "one" with Christ, which aspect of that person's being is not one with the Father and Jesus? Which feature of God is not received at that moment? If you say there is anything left out then is it really becoming "one" with Him and receiving a full inheritance?

The inheritance we receive is not divided. It is not a piece of the fullness but the fullness itself. The only way to give all of the inheritance to everyone that gets a fullness of the inheritance is to share it. If one wants to claim it as their own then it would have to be divided. That is why the devil's way is one of dividing and claiming for one's own that which was meant to be shared, which is selfishness. By being one with them we can have all that was even before we were around and also be a part of all that is to come, thus being 'perfect' forever, in the past and in the future. The only people that will have the capacity of being "one" are those that have no bit of selfishness in them, i.e. - being Christlike. That is the gospel of Christ.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[Latter Days Guy]

Just to affirm our OP's questions...I would suspect that missionaries will get these questions quite often. Snow's statement is indeed a great stumbling block for non-LDS folk like myself. The converations can become very complex and challenging. The nature of God, of Christ, of humanity are huge issues. Our disagreements are substantive. The reality that some "counter-cult" groups have turned these issues into sensational caricature should not distract from seeking out answers. One book I would recommend, that gets more to the basic doctrinal issues is: How Wide the Divide - A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation. It is co-written by Prof. Blomberg (Denver Seminary - Evangelical) and Prof. Robinson (BYU, LDS). They are respectful, and yet do not sweep disagreements under the rug. The book is substantive, and yet approachable. I'm about to order a few more copies to use in my ministry.

I would also recommend that book, I'm reading through it at the moment and its quite a refreshing read!

[rameumptom]

Can we become perfect in certain things now? Yes. For instance, "1 + 1 =2" is a perfect math answer.

As we learn, we become more perfect in many ways. In this life as mortals, we will not become perfect. However, as we strive our best, in the resurrection Christ will perfect us, so we will know all things and be perfect in all things.

[Traveler]

Can we become perfect in certain things now? Yes. For instance, "1 + 1 =2" is a perfect math answer.

As we learn, we become more perfect in many ways. In this life as mortals, we will not become perfect. However, as we strive our best, in the resurrection Christ will perfect us, so we will know all things and be perfect in all things.

I do not want to burst your bubble but your math statement is flawed. The 1 + 1 = 2 is not a complete (perfect) answer but is only correct under cretin circumstances. For example it is not true for complex numbers (sometimes called imaginary numbers).

But I believe you are correct about learning in order to achieve “completeness” or perfection.

The Traveler

[Vort]

I do not want to burst your bubble but your math statement is flawed. The 1 + 1 = 2 is not a complete (perfect) answer but is only correct under cretin circumstances.

In other words, you have to be a real dope to believe Ram? :)

For example it is not true for complex numbers (sometimes called imaginary numbers).

Hmm.

(1 + 0i) + (1 + 0i) = (1 + 1) + (0i + 0i) = 1 + 1 = 2

Seems to work fine with complex/imaginary numbers.

(Note: An "imaginary number" is a multiple of i, which by definition is √(-1). For example, 4i is an imaginary number. A complex number is the sum of a real number and an imaginary number. For example, 4i-6 is a complex number.)

Edited June 8, 2011 by Vort
Said "complex" when I meant "imaginary". Imagine that complex chain of events.

[Jennarator]

In other words, you have to be a real dope to believe Ram? :)

Hmm.

(1 + 0i) + (1 + 0i) = (1 + 1) + (0i + 0i) = 1 + 1 = 2

Seems to work fine with complex/imaginary numbers.

(Note: An "imaginary number" is a multiple of i, which by definition is √(-1). For example, 4i is a complex number. A complex number is the sum of a real number and an imaginary number. For example, 4i-6 is a complex number.)

Why does Math keep creeping into all these threads?! Perhaps my math teacher was right, math IS every where. (Don't tel him I admitted that.....)

[KrazyKay]

I do not want to burst your bubble but your math statement is flawed. The 1 + 1 = 2 is not a complete (perfect) answer but is only correct under cretin circumstances. For example it is not true for complex numbers (sometimes called imaginary numbers).

But I believe you are correct about learning in order to achieve “completeness” or perfection.

The Traveler

A better example would be that 1+1=2 is only true in base 10. But in other bases, that is not the case... such as in base 2 (aka binary) 1+1=10

Jennarator... consider your last post laughed, lol.

When I read this thread title, I immediately remembered - or thought I remembered, this same sentence "as man is, God once was, and as God is, man can be" from a scripture mastery or somewhere in the scriptures. I could be remembering wrong since I can't find it in my scriptures, lol. Maybe I'm remembering from a lesson at some point. But I do know when I heard it, it made perfect sense to me.