How Do You Know?

[Maureen]

I'll have just a couple of scoops of ice cream. I'm on a diet. I'm always on a diet.

Can a guy admit that he is on a diet and still be a manly man?

I'll also have some ice cream, Heavenly Hash please. And I'm not on a diet. I'm never on a diet. Is it possible for a woman not to be on a diet?

M.

[Ray]

If someone's intent is to just be right at all costs I think they have missed the boat completely.

My intent is to love everyone no matter what they believe and I know that intent is just right. And ONE of the ways that I show my love to everyone is by teaching what I know to be right. And if people disagree and have a problem with me because I share what I know to be right, then that is their problem and I’ll still love them anyway, while I continue to try to teach them what is right. :)

I'm pretty sure Ray missed the boat.

I’m pretty sure you’re wrong about that and a LOT of other things, but I still love you anyway, Jason, :)

I… agree with you on your point that God's truth is God's truth consistently and without error. Were are we to go from here?

We (all of us) are to go to God to learn what He knows to be true, so our truth can be consistently the truth without error and in total agreement with Him. And not until we do that can all of us be one, because if we are not one we are not all His. And I’ll tell you what I’ll do, when I know you’re wrong, I’ll let you know, and you can go and ask Him. :)

It's been my experience that religiously arrogant folks tend to chase off far more people from what they proclaim to want them to have, then they attract to their faith. It is as if those people are saying.... you are stupid, you have no value, your opinion doesn't count for crap, and you had better listen to me because next to God I am the way. Are you one of those people Ray?

Nope. I am not. All people have value, even when they are wrong, but some beliefs are nothing but a load of crap. Do you think a false belief is every bit as valuable as the truth… the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Rice Pudding anyone?

Cherry Cheesecake?

Boston Creme Pie?

Death By Chocolate Ice Cream Sundae?

I’m still holding out for some of that rice pudding, if Shannon has any of it left.

[Dr T]

Hi Ray,

I’ll tell you what I’ll do, when I know you’re wrong, I’ll let you know, and you can go and ask Him.

When I know you're wrong, I'll let you know. :)

Dr. T

[Ray]

Hi Ray,

I’ll tell you what I’ll do, when I know you’re wrong, I’ll let you know, and you can go and ask Him.

When I know you're wrong, I'll let you know. :)

Dr. T

Okay. But if what I tell you is what I learned from God, I'll also tell you that you don't agree with Him. :)

And btw, the point of me saying that is mainly so that I can get myself off the hook if God ever asks me why I didn't tell you what I knew and that I had learned that from Him. :)

I believe He expects me to try to share what I know when I know I have learned from Him. :)

[Dr T]

Understood Ray. :) I see that your worldview is about sharing what you think you know from God. Ray, "I'll share what I know from God too." My point is, this knowledge will conflict at times and we will both be claiming that God revealed it to us. As you said, and I agree, God is consistent, all truth should line up (at least theoretically). What will we do when we come to an impasse? Just say, "Your info is from Satan and mine is from God!" This is where this thread has taken up and still there is no standard we can use as a framework.

Dr. T

[Ray]

Okay, my bottom line statement is to say I have learned and am continuing to learn from God, and that we (all of us) should also be learning and continuing to learn from God… not just from the Bible or even the Book of Mormon or even all of the scriptures we (LDS) have (which were all written or translated by men)… but actually learning and gaining personal knowledge from nobody else but God.

And from there we will see if other people agree with Him.

And if or when someone disagrees with me or what I am sharing with them, even when I say I've learned and am continuing to learn from God, I will then usually share or repeat my bottom line statement… let’s keep learning by learning from God.

And btw, sometimes I also share what I know to be true about what Satan does to try to deceive us (all of us) personally, but when I say that it shouldn’t be offensive to anyone personally. I’m simply sharing what I have learned from God.

Did I say that in a way where you could actually hear what I keep trying to say to you?

[Lindy]

OK OK OK

RAY....here's your bowl of rice pudding and a spoon!

[Ray]

Okay. But I really wanted some that was made and given by Shannon. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Ray: Dr. T is saying that there is no agreed upon "method" of discovering truth, because each of you may claim different beliefs were revealed to you by God. So the question is, which "method" of arriving at truth is correct, or which belief is correct? Dr. T may believe as firmly as you do that he is right, and saying, "God told me so," isn't productive in that case. That's where discussion of doctrine/scriptures/opinions comes in, though the goal shouldn't be convincing others but explaining why we believe something if there are reasons in addition to God telling us so.

Dr. T: Ray is saying that if he believes he's right about truth, and you disagree about truth, his revelation trumps yours because he knows how to learn from God better than you. I think what's behind this is the additional truths/scriptures/revelations we have in our LDS canon. I don't think he understands how he comes across, or that other people might believe they learned something from God that contradicts what he feels he learned from God. When it comes down to Ray saying "I learned it from God," and no other discussion is forthcoming, further attempts at dialogue will fail miserably. I'd advise dropping the subject (with him at least) and moving on to more fruitful discussions. :)

Lindy: Where's the tapioca?

[shanstress70]

I’m still holding out for some of that rice pudding, if Shannon has any of it left.

Sure Ray, if Lindy didn't eat it all!

[sgallan]

Nope. I am not. All people have value, even when they are wrong, but some beliefs are nothing but a load of crap. Do you think a false belief is every bit as valuable as the truth… the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Let me put it this way Ray...... I would never, ever, accept an invitation from you to either visit your Chapel, nor hear your message in my house. As a matter of fact, if you were to get in my face with such a message, in my house, there is a good chance you would get the boot in a very harsh and nasty way. And as a matter of record, the last time this house had a visit, from a member of this faith, from a person with your exact attitude (it's been about four years and people in that Ward still walk soft around me - it's a small town), they came off as extremely insulting.... especially to my then wife (still clean and sober and sweet). There were words, and if that particular person hadn't been of the health and age where I thought I might actually kill him, I think those words would have escalated. His partner was smart enough to get out of there post haste..... and no one has been back since.

Is this the sort of thing you are intending to do? Do you REALLY consider this a constructive way to bring people to something you cherish?

[sgallan]

Hmm..... I better qualify what I just said. From a discussion board perspective you have every right to your views, and I respect that. I think they are probably the norm within the faith. I am in no way saying that I have it "out for you" in any way whatsoever. I am just suggesting, in a real world perspective, I have come across somebody who verbalized things like you do, in my house, and it wasn't pretty. Heck, my wife even left the room when he said what he said, becuase she knew it was about to hit the fan.

[Dr T]

Thank you AK. I'm still curious about the topic, but I'll have to agree on that point.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[prisonchaplain]

How do we know what is true?

First, I've not waded through the 10-pages here. I did check the last two pages to see if I'd jumped in, and I haven't.

Most here are aware that the majority of people end up embracing "the faith of our fathers." In other words, we go with what we grew up with. It's not always a matter of laziness. Quite often what we've been raised in proves reasonable and true. In the absence of compelling negatives or of a more compelling alternative, we stick with our default spiritual settings.

Others, like Ray, convert. Technically, I did too--but I was only 10. I grew up in a "non-Christian, non-church-going household," but began attending Sunday School as a "bus kid." I said the Sinner's Prayer at 10, was baptized in the Holy Spirit at 14, my dad saw me water baptized at 16, and I found myself in what became a 6.5 year mission from 23 - 29. The call to 'full-time service' came at 30, and I've continued on ever since.

I don't recall a crisis of faith, but rather a continual growth, with some struggles along the way. Perhaps the fact that I grew up in public schools and a 'non-believing' household meant that I faced questions of faith on an on-going, but never stark basis.

How do I know that my faith is true, that my 'ecstatic' pentecostal experiences are 'of God' and not 'the flesh' 'the Devil' or human invention? It's a combination of the witness of the Spirit (gaining a testimony?), reasoned examination of the Scripture, the absence of drastic logical inconsistencies, and yes, ultimately, faith.

Don't know if I repeated what everyone else has said, added to the conversation, or simply further muddied the waters--but this is my story, and I'm sticking with it.

[sgallan]

Most here are aware that the majority of people end up embracing "the faith of our fathers." In other words, we go with what we grew up with.

Which is what is my wish for my child as well. :)

[Dr T]

Hey Sgallan,

Why do you want your child to grow up with the belief that there is not God?

Just curious.

Thanks

[StrawberryFields]

<div class='quotemain'>

If someone's intent is to just be right at all costs I think they have missed the boat completely.

My intent is to love everyone no matter what they believe and I know that intent is just right. And ONE of the ways that I show my love to everyone is by teaching what I know to be right. And if people disagree and have a problem with me because I share what I know to be right, then that is their problem and I’ll still love them anyway, while I continue to try to teach them what is right. :)

Ray, I love ya but you are incorrigible,

[sgallan]

Why do you want your child to grow up with the belief that there is not God?

For the same reason people who do believe in a certain god or religion raise their children to believe in God. I am raising my child to have similar values to what I have. Believing in a god or religion is not one of those values I find particularly constructive or useful in the manner I live my life.

At the moment she still believes in God, something she got from my estranged wife, but would best be described as a deist. And her mom - the last I heard - was getting into new age (some call it occultist) stuff with a belief in a Higher Power. I am homeschooling my child though, and her mom isn't around much, so I am having her read "The Demon-Haunted World", by Carl Sagan. Though it is a little advanced for her.... it is this kind of philosophy of learning and living I teaching her.

A description of the book....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World

[shanstress70]

Sgallan,

It's possible to have faith without all the BS that goes along with it. It is possible to be spiritual without being judgmental; perhaps not the norm, but possible.

Why try to persuade your daughter that there is no higher power? Why not just encourage her to make up her own mind and respect the belief in God that she already has? I can't imagine growing up without a belief in an afterlife... it depressed the heck out of me as an adult when I lost my faith for a while!

[sgallan]

Why try to persuade your daughter that there is no higher power?

I am just going to present her with why I don't believe. Which is a lot of what is in the Demon-Haunted world. My general opinion is..... if you can believe in God, then it isn't too far to go to believe in any of the hundreds of myths and legends either. Given that she is already showing signs of being skilled in math and science, believing in the various myths and psudeosciences is counter productive to her overall education, as well as her desire to work in the science fields.

Why not just encourage her to make up her own mind and respect the belief in God that she already has?

She can make up her own mind anyhow. I am just going to present her with my arguments and the various facts. She will also be exposed the various religions, because they are an obvious aspect of history and social studies, but she won't get the "this religion is more special than that religion" lesson. And as always.... she is free to attend church. People and friends have given her things like religious tapes and even a pocket sized NT book. I don't mind. If she ends up believing as I do it will because I won the rational argument, and will have done so in a society made up of a majority of believers to influence her in anotther direction.

I can't imagine growing up without a belief in an afterlife... it depressed the heck out of me as an adult when I lost my faith for a while!

She has a kids faith in God a lot like she believed in Santa Claus. I suspect if she loses it early enough, without the indoctrination of religion, it won't be an issue like it was with you.

[boyando]

Why do you want your child to grow up with the belief that there is not God?

For the same reason people who do believe in a certain god or religion raise their children to believe in God. I am raising my child to have similar values to what I have. Believing in a god or religion is not one of those values I find particularly constructive or useful in the manner I live my life.

At the moment she still believes in God, something she got from my estranged wife, but would best be described as a deist. And her mom - the last I heard - was getting into new age (some call it occultist) stuff with a belief in a Higher Power. I am homeschooling my child though, and her mom isn't around much, so I am having her read "The Demon-Haunted World", by Carl Sagan. Though it is a little advanced for her.... it is this kind of philosophy of learning and living I teaching her.

A description of the book....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World

Sgallon:

To be fair, I read wikipedia's description of Carl Sagan's book and though, I have not read it, I think I have a prettygood idea what it's about.

When you get a little time, could you please explain how science is not your religion? Also, maybe you would like to explain how science has proven that there is no God? I'm hoping that you will paraphrase what Carl is saying, because I'm to cheap, with my time and money, to read the book.

In humility, I am willing to listen to anything you have to say. But I have to warn you, listening is not the same as agreeing with you (I sometimes have to explain that to my loving Wife, who sometimes feels that I'm not listening).

awaiting your inlightenment -Allmosthumble

[sgallan]

When you get a little time, could you please explain how science is not your religion?

I like to follow it. I find it interesting. But I'm not a scientist. I don't worship it.... I just use it.... like right this very second.... I am using it. I think about the closest thing I have to a "religion" is teaching and coaching and working to improve/teach some of my fellow human beings. I say this because I teach distance education in college (most of my students are incarcerated), substitute teach K-12, and volunteer coach about 20 hours or more a week.

Also, maybe you would like to explain how science has proven that there is no God?

It is impossible to prove there is no God. But, if I were to tell you I have an invisible Dragon that lives in my garage...... can you disprove it? You can't.... it is not possible.

I'm hoping that you will paraphrase what Carl is saying, because I'm to cheap, with my time and money, to read the book.

The Dragon analogy is something I use a lot and borrowed from Sagan. My Dragon is cooler than his. :)

In humility, I am willing to listen to anything you have to say. But I have to warn you, listening is not the same as agreeing with you (I sometimes have to explain that to my loving Wife, who sometimes feels that I'm not listening). awaiting your inlightenment

I'm not looking for converts. If your faith works for you and your family then I would recommend you keep it. I am only a doting single dad raising my child with my values in a manner that I see as best for her development as a human being.

[shanstress70]

Given that she is already showing signs of being skilled in math and science, believing in the various myths and psudeosciences is counter productive to her overall education, as well as her desire to work in the science fields.

I respect everything you have said on the matter, although I thoroughly disagree and think that at least a basic religious belief in something important to everyone, child and adult.

And I disagree 100% with this statement you made. Some of the smartest scentists that I've come in contact with are spiritual people... though not of your 'typical' faith denominations.

Whatever the case, I know that you're a great dad to your daughter, I can tell by the way you talk about her. Just don't get overly-confident that you know all the best ways to do everything. As a fellow parent, I know it's important to always re-assess.

* I hated the way this sounds when I went back to re-read it. I don't want to sound like I'm being condescending, because under no circumstances do I feel like I know everything.

[sgallan]

Whatever the case, I know that you're a great dad to your daughter, I can tell by the way you talk about her. Just don't get overly-confident that you know all the best ways to do everything. As a fellow parent, I know it's important to always re-assess.

I re-assess all of the time. It's something I've learned in dealing with countless kids over the years. But this kid already a sense of spirituality. The same kind I have. We both get excited everytime we see Half Dome and Yosemite pictures.... or when we are there. The amazing spectical of Rewood National Park, and it's the ocean, of the Tide Pools - with all of it's little critters, of long hikes through amazing old growth forests. Of our vistit to Crater Lake with twenty feet of snow when it's 85 out in June, and that amazing blue lake, the sheer power of rapids, the wonderment of the underwater world when we go Scuba Diving, these things and much more are how I feed my spirituality and how I teach her.

There is a sense of wonderment and awe in these things. We don't need to look to the supernatural to find it..... it is all around us. It is in what we see when we look into the cosmo's, it is what we see when look in a microscope. Or do an experiment. Or when I explain how the Himalayas were made. Nature and learning is full of richness and variety that we'll not even come close to discovering in a lifetime of discovery. These things are enough to feed the spirit, and keep us endlessly interested and busy without having to look outside of what is already there.

[shanstress70]

Whatever the case, I know that you're a great dad to your daughter, I can tell by the way you talk about her. Just don't get overly-confident that you know all the best ways to do everything. As a fellow parent, I know it's important to always re-assess.

I re-assess all of the time. It's something I've learned in dealing with countless kids over the years. But this kid already a sense of spirituality. The same kind I have. We both get excited everytime we see Half Dome and Yosemite pictures.... or when we are there. The amazing spectical of Rewood National Park, and it's the ocean, of the Tide Pools - with all of it's little critters, of long hikes through amazing old growth forests. Of our vistit to Crater Lake with twenty feet of snow when it's 85 out in June, and that amazing blue lake, the sheer power of rapids, the wonderment of the underwater world when we go Scuba Diving, these things and much more are how I feed my spirituality and how I teach her.

There is a sense of wonderment and awe in these things. We don't need to look to the supernatural to find it..... it is all around us. It is in what we see when we look into the cosmo's, it is what we see when look in a microscope. Or do an experiment. Or when I explain how the Himalayas were made. Nature and learning is full of richness and variety that we'll not even come close to discovering in a lifetime of discovery. These things are enough to feed the spirit, and keep us endlessly interested and busy without having to look outside of what is already there.

I totally agree with you about the spirituality that can be gained when experiencing nature. Ironically, that is exactly what restored my faith in God. In my mind, it's not possible that all of these beautiful things you describe (as well as the awesome human body, love for child, etc.) can be a scientific coincidence. It is more likely TO ME that it was created by a higher being... who I believe is God.