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letsjam

17 Points To The True Church Of Christ

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What Snow said is absolutely true. I know what is true when God gives me His assurance, not by trusting what I read in some books.

So my first source for information about God, is God, who has said and continues to say a LOT more than those writers did while they wrote what they wrote in their books.

And if that still doesn't help you to really see what I am saying, try these words:

The "book" of Matthew in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Matthew said was true.

And the "book" of Mark in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Mark said was true.

And the "book" of Luke in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Luke said was true.

And the "book" of John in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what John said was true.

And I know God inspired them so they could know what was true by God telling me they told the truth.

Do you want to know what else I know???

Ask God. I'm learning all that is true from Him. :)

What did God tell you about Mark 16:8-20 and John 7:53–8:11... that (you know that they are) "true by God telling (you) the truth?

Ray,

Thank you for your PM confirming that you believe that Mark 16:8-20 and John 7:53-8:11 were written by Mark and John from what they knew of God to be true... in the same way that you, Ray, know what they both wrote was true.

In response to your question: What is the point? ... ... ... The point is that Mark did not write Mark 16:8-20 nor did John write John 7:53-8:11. They were not part of the original text but rather later additions by manuscript scribes.

My question to you is why do you think that God would reveal to you that Mark and John wrote it and that what they wrote was true, when, in fact, they didn't write it?

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Ray,

Thank you for your PM confirming that you believe that Mark 16:8-20 and John 7:53-8:11 were written by Mark and John from what they knew of God to be true... in the same way that you, Ray, know what they both wrote was true.

In response to your question: What is the point? ... ... ... The point is that Mark did not write Mark 16:8-20 nor did John write John 7:53-8:11. They were not part of the original text but rather later additions by manuscript scribes.

My question to you is why do you think that God would reveal to you that Mark and John wrote it and that what they wrote was true, when, in fact, they didn't write it?

I too engaged in some private conversation with Ray. His main point seems valid--we ought to indeed seek God's direction, confirmation, etc. However, God is often content to let us grapple with things ourselves, to lead us to human counsel, to written texts, and sometimes to leave us in a place of not know all the answers (actually most of the time). I guess I'll just take that main point and say thanks.

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The story, which was later made in to a Novel, was told by Floyd Weston. However he stated during the telling of the story that he could not remember exactly how many points there were, only an approximation of 17. The original list of points he had was apparently long gone and he only cited a couple of the points in his talk. The list of the 17 points appears to have been made by someone else to coincide with the talk and was not necessarily based on the original list let alone the original references.

I've wondered the origins of the story - and as some have pointed it out, it seemed to coincidental.

However, we know that a similar and true story exists in Parley P Pratt's autobiography when he travels to Canada. He met a group of people that had similar questions and a 'list' of sorts and where wondering if such a 'true' church existed that could meet their criteria. After Parley presented his evidence (over what sounded like about 8 hours of lectures....ouch) and stories about the restoration, many were baptized. It's a cool story. Chapter 17 and 18.

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One thing left out here. Believing on Him, in Jesus. It is on this that the church is built. It is not a building or a religion, it is believing on His Son. Making Him your Lord, God and Savior. All religions have members of His church, however not all members of a religion are in His church. It is a simple thing yet so elusive to many.

Col. 2:8-9 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

The true church consists of the true believers.

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The list you mentioned letsjam was from a fireside talk given by Floyd Weston a convert to the church around the time of World War II. The list was compiled by his Catholic roomate who was a brilliant man with a photographic memory. Weston along with his roomates attended a lecture at Cal Tech, given by none other than Albert Einstein. Einstein was thought to be an atheist, but made the statement that "The more I delve into the sciences of this universe, the more I am convinced that some higher being had a hand in it". This sparked a religious discussion with each of 5 roomates of Weston, and each belonged to a different faith, and one was an atheist. Weston's Catholic friend, (his name escapes me now) decided to go through the bible to try and determine if possible what charachteristics the church Christ established should possess. He pulled up a long blackboard and during their time at the University, began compiling the points that you now find in the aforementioned list. They together would visit different faiths and talk to different church leaders during that time. Eventually Weston got drafted in the army and lost touch with the others, but each of them was given a copy of the points which they kept. Weston talked to some army buddies who were members of the LDS church and probably former missionaries. Weston became interested in the church and after much time soul searching discovered for himself that the LDS church met every requirement on the list of points. Years later he ran into his Catholic friend and discovered he too had joined the church. I think the atheist guy was killed in a plane crash during the war, but all of the roomates had wound up finding their way to the Church of Jesus Christ. Now this really happened and was told by Floyd Weston to inspire other seekers of truth to truly investigate these points and find out for themselves just like he did. James 1:5.

Edited by ldrkholt

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This has been around for over twenty years. I thought it was cool to share it on my mission, but honestly, this is just dancing around the heart of the matter. He that hath ears will hear and eyes to see. Nephi, Alma, Ammon, Aaron, Helaman, Moroni and others have told us exactly what the gospel of Jesus Christ is and how to discern. Our savior has given us the simplest method to know, but we are creatures who like to make things more complicated than it really is and patting ourselves on the back for it.

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Much, much longer than 20 years skalenfehl. There is no dancing around anything. Why can't people simply see it for what it is? It is simply how Floyd Weston and a few others gained a testimony of the gospel and joined the church. It was presented at a fireside in an inspirational talk. Why are so many of you making it out to be something to dismiss? It may be old, but it is still interesting and inspiring. I found that the points (which were created at the time by someone who had known practically nothing about the church) to be an amazing story. The points were given in the talk simply to invite investigators of the church, to ponder about the church Christ established and seek to know more just as Floyd Weston did . It is a great missionary tool.

Edited by ldrkholt

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There has been floating around for some time a list of "Seventeen Points of the True Church" that was compiled by a group of people studying the Bible as students (or servicemen, or scientist), based on the church Jesus established as described in the New Testament. According to the story (of which there are conflicting versions), when these people broke up and went on about their lives (after college, after the war, whatever), each of them searched diligently among the various religions for the "true church" according to the list of points. Many years later, they all discovered that each of them had independently found... Guess! Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! Oh, isn't that a heart-warming testimonial?

Here is the list.

17 Points of the True Church of Christ

Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)

The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)

The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)

The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Eph 4:11-14)

The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)

The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)

The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)

The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)

The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)

The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)

The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)

The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)

The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)

The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)

The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)

The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)

"By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)

However the list came to be and whether or not the story is completely accurate, anyone who disputes it needs to confront the scriptural justifications given for each point, not just argue with the poster 'LetsJam'.

The major comment here is that scriptures describe a church and that the LDS Church matches that description.

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I had the audio tape and booklet of Floyd Weston telling the story. I was basically a fireside but I noticed the strangest thing. The stories related two different endings of the story. The first was that the friends all independently joined the LDS church and met years later. The other was that Floyd joined and later they discussed it and agreed that his church matched the 17 points. I didn't think anything of it at the time but years later on a LDS board I read a few others had looked into the story. Apparently the dates of him being at Cal Tech doesn't match the events he describes and the one friend he mentions by name had never heard of the 17 points and had not joined the church.

Apparently the 17 points belong on the shelf with the collected works of Paul H. Dunn

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mdb, I don't understand why you say these things are false.

!. We are taught to Baptize by IMMERSION only.

2. We do teach that God and Jesus are SEPARATE and DISTINCT beings. Joseph Smith saw this for himself.

3. WE ARE taught the God and JESUS have bodies of FLESH and BONE.

4. The Church HAS been restored. Jesus Christ,through instructions from Heavenly Father Organized The Church of Jesus Christ. Through apostasy it was taken from the earth.

It was restored by JOSEPH SMITH, through instructions from Heavenly Father.

5. We DO practice Baptism for the dead

Why would you say these things are false? Are you a non member, or perhaps a very new member?? Brother Ray

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I had the audio tape and booklet of Floyd Weston telling the story. I was basically a fireside but I noticed the strangest thing. The stories related two different endings of the story. The first was that the friends all independently joined the LDS church and met years later. The other was that Floyd joined and later they discussed it and agreed that his church matched the 17 points. I didn't think anything of it at the time but years later on a LDS board I read a few others had looked into the story. Apparently the dates of him being at Cal Tech doesn't match the events he describes and the one friend he mentions by name had never heard of the 17 points and had not joined the church.

Apparently the 17 points belong on the shelf with the collected works of Paul H. Dunn

I read too that Floyd Weston was not in places he said he was, and I was very disappointed that he had lied..

But I read the list again today, and it sure seems to match things that the Church teaches.. Sure we should dismiss the whole Floyd Weston story. But. Should we, also dismiss the list?

Brother Ray

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So I'd like to discuss two points:

This is doubtful. Nothing Jesus said or did would indicate that he had plans to organize anything resembling any church existant today.

Uh oh. Mormons are out.

What do you mean by uh oh Mormons are out??? Our leaders are NOT paid by the Church. They all have individual jobs.

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I am always skeptical of these amazing gatherings of wise folk who determine which is the one true church based on irrefutable facts. However, those who like such things can take comfort...you're not alone: Where Is the True Church? – and Its Incredible History!

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I am always skeptical of these amazing gatherings of wise folk who determine which is the one true church based on irrefutable facts. However, those who like such things can take comfort...you're not alone: Where Is the True Church? – and Its Incredible History!

The Bible is a fact - as a religious man you know that

So why not accept the doctrine from the Bible that is under your nose and accept that the LDS Church is the ONE True Church.

That isn't a question, it is an observation.

You either take ALL of the teachings from the Bible, or you take none of it. You cannot pick and choose which parts you like and discard the rest. Which is what most religions do.

I was heavily involved with another religion for over 30 years before I discovered the truth. I was not taught by missionaries, either, I found the answers for myself.

The Bible = The Truth = The LDS Church

That is all we need to know

.

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My only suggestion is that whether a church is true or not would not hinge on a story like the 17 points one. Joseph Smith sought God with his question and relays a divine visitation. Your missionaries ask householders to pray and receive a divine revelation from the Holy Spirit. Jesus disciples saw Jesus and just seemed to know it was true. The tale of scholars or smart individuals (it seems this story has several versions) coming upon 17 doctrines that happen to coincide with LDS distinctive teachings may reassure the already faithful...but we all know that each of us must have our own divine encounter with God, before we can experience our own redemption.

Jezebel, As for your inquiry about why I have not embraced the LDS church...if you really want to know about my faith journey, I've got my page here, and a little over 10K posts...you'll see that I'm neither hostile nor thoughtless...just haven't had that revelation that you have. It's good that we share Jesus and can discuss these things though.

Edited by prisonchaplain

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My only suggestion is that whether a church is true or not would not hinge on a story like the 17 points one. Joseph Smith sought God with his question and relays a divine visitation. Your missionaries ask householders to pray and receive a divine revelation from the Holy Spirit. Jesus disciples saw Jesus and just seemed to know it was true. The tale of scholars or smart individuals (it seems this story has several versions) coming upon 17 doctrines that happen to coincide with LDS distinctive teachings may reassure the already faithful...but we all know that each of us must have our own divine encounter with God, before we can experience our own redemption.

Indeed, relying on a checklist and absent revelation, would be a fine dandy example of relying upon the arm of flesh in my estimation. Scholarship and reasoning can enhance our walk with the Spirit but cannot replace it. And that is where the 17 points have any value they have, in directing people to seek the Spirit so they may know for themselves. As a bludgeon of reason they are fruitless.

Edited by Dravin

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The Bible is a fact - as a religious man you know that

So why not accept the doctrine from the Bible that is under your nose and accept that the LDS Church is the ONE True Church.

That isn't a question, it is an observation.

You either take ALL of the teachings from the Bible, or you take none of it. You cannot pick and choose which parts you like and discard the rest. Which is what most religions do.

I was heavily involved with another religion for over 30 years before I discovered the truth. I was not taught by missionaries, either, I found the answers for myself.

The Bible = The Truth = The LDS Church

That is all we need to know

.

What happened to Article of Faith #11? I find PrisonChaplain to be more religious than many of the judgemental members of our own faith.

Edited by pam

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The Bible is a fact - as a religious man you know that

So why not accept the doctrine from the Bible that is under your nose and accept that the LDS Church is the ONE True Church.

That isn't a question, it is an observation.

You either take ALL of the teachings from the Bible, or you take none of it. You cannot pick and choose which parts you like and discard the rest. Which is what most religions do.

I was heavily involved with another religion for over 30 years before I discovered the truth. I was not taught by missionaries, either, I found the answers for myself.

The Bible = The Truth = The LDS Church

That is all we need to know

.

Wait, you are calling out PC for not embracing the LDS when you, yourself, took over 30 years to embrace it? Wow...

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I served in the mission field with Floyd Weston's son. He was my first companion in the field. As a greenie I heard him retell his father's story more than once. Floyd found the church after he had been wounded in the war and was sent back to the Bay area to a hospital for healing. One of his nurses was LDS. He ended up going to church with her, had an interview with the bishop, & asked him about each one of the 17 points. He ended up marrying that nurse in the Temple. I believe 3 of his sons have now served as mission presidents (including my former companion). The story is all true. I suppose I should send a FB message to my companion and have him send me the story. I've retold it many times (to the best of my recollection). I used in recently in a lesson I taught just last week.

Edited by Mahonri

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I just have to go over the list that prisonchaplain created.

Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)

While Christ is central to the church, He is the one worshiped, not the organizer of the worship. Such details are usually left to his servants to take care of.

Your statement is False: Of course Jesus set up his church. He called Apostles, seventy and all manner of people go forth to preach the word and spread the gospel. Luke chapter 10 is a good example.

The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)

Any church that makes use of the Bible as its central Scriptures could claim to be founded upon what is said by the apostles and prophets.

You make a good point here, but what is meant is Living Apostles and Prophets. In the original church, there was a line of leadership that ran the whole church. After Jesus was resurrection, the leadership was pasted down the the senior apostle. The point being, each church was not run by individuals, but was overseen by one leadership, on who could give revelation for the whole church and every part of it where ever it may be. That is why there is so much conflict today. When you have Brother Bob's Church, Pastor John's Church, and Rev. Tony's church, each church is run by a different person with different beliefs. Jesus meant it t be one God, one faith and on baptism.

The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Eph 4:11-14)

Most Christian churches have the roles (gifts) detailed in this passage. Some might use different names. For example, The Message lists pastor-teacher as one of the positions. I suppose a bishop would qualify, even if the actual title differs slightly.

Your right, some churches may come close to having the organization, but name one besides the LDS church that has everything. There is no other church that has a Prophet, Apostles, Seventy, and down the line all the way to Deacon and Teacher. The Catholic Church comes close, but still doesn't have a Prophet or Apostles.

The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)

Again, most Christian churches claim authority from God.

Most Christan churches do CLAIM authority from God, but where is it? Anyone can claim anything, but authority of God is the Priesthood. I only know of two churches on the earth that claim to have the true authority of God, but as we know on one of them can be correct.

The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)

You might want to reference previous strings on this topic. However, it is pretty clear that even in the apostolic age church workers were supported. A workman was due his pay. In particular, Paul went to great lengths to defend and explain the fact that he was NOT paid--indirectly suggesting that his refusal to be supported was UNusual.

Paul was not paid because he belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ. Yes, I'm sure Scribes and Pharisees were paid, and other people that in the temples and synagogs. But didn't Jesus spend much of his ministry rebuking these people for their wrong doings? That's why Jesus set up his own church, because man had become so corrupt. Aren't we all to follow the example of Christ? Did he preach to earn a profit? No, he preached the word to call people to repentance so that they my be saved. We should do the same.

The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)

I'll let the sprinklers and pourers defend themselves, but I (a dunker) often wonder how essential the form is to the ordinance. Salvation is by grace, through faith. The baptism is a testimony to the salvation. So, as long as the story gets told, has God's purpose not been fulfilled?

You can not except one scripture so closely and forget the rest. For they are all important. Yes, by his grace we will be saved. But don't forget, Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5. Baptism was not just something that we can discard, it is an ordnance set for by Jesus Christ himself. It is essential. That is why we need one true church run by a prophet, that is why the book of Mormon, Doctrine and Convenience, and the Pearl of Great Price was brought forth. Because there is so much confusion in what needs to be done, the Lord had to send a prophet to clarify the truth.

The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)

The laying on of hands is not mentioned nearly as often speaking in other tongues.

Just because the the confirming the Holy Ghost is not mention often, does not mean it is not important. Whey did Jesus tell his Apostle to confirm the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands if it was unimportant? Far too easy do people overlook things of importance. The world has discarded so many essential ordinances set for by Jesus Christ. Can you truly call a church that does not do the ordinances of Jesus Christ the true church of Jesus Christ?

The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)

IMHO, yes, a 'full gospel' church ought to do as Christ did and heal the sick.

Yes, the true church must heal the sick. It is obvious that you do not have a testimony of this, so I don't expect you to understand. But I have a strong testimony of this. I have seen this done, in the name of the Lord, by the power of the holy priesthood. And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. James 5:14.

The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)

And most Christian churches do. The Trinity explains that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, though one essential God. Are you picking on Oneness Pentecostals here?

As I grew up, my parents jumped from church to church. This was good for me, because I had to opportunity to learn of many different churches and what they believed. This helped me to understand how true the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is. But, I was spent much time attending the Baptist churches, along with the Methodist, and Catholic. Non of these churches believe that the Fater, Son and Holy Ghost were separate. As a matter of fact, I have never attended another church, besides the LDS church that believed so. But the more you read the scriptures, the more it testifies that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate beings, but one in unity working towards that same cause. The Bibles says the we shale leave our mothers and fathers and cling unto our wife, and we shale become as one flesh. We know that his is not literal. You and your wife do now merge into one physical person, but this is a metaphor stating that you two shall work as one, to bring forth what is best for your marriage and for the sake of your children. Did Jesus not pray to his Father in heaven always? Did he not say, thy will be done? All three came forth separately in this scripture. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:16-17. When it was all said and done, didn't Jesus descend into heaven to sit on the right side of his Father?

The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)

This is the stinker in the list. There are very few Christian fellowships outside of the LDS that teach this. The notion that this group of students/scientists would come upon this as an essential is a bit hard to believe. Especially since other such Bible study groups did NOT come up with this one.

We all know that Jesus was reselected. After the resurrection, Jesus visited this apostles in the flesh. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John 20:27. So Jesus resurrected descended into heaven. So we know that Jesus has a body of flesh and bone. If the son has a body o flesh and bone, why wouldn't that father? And if you believe in the trinity, then none of it makes sense. This means that you believe that Jesus is the Father, that he is a spirit, but we know that Jesus has a body of flesh and bone.

The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)

Is there any religion--especially any Christian church--that does not claim this?

When I received my calling in the position I am in now, a group of people prayed about who to call, and all came together with the same answer by the power of the Holy Ghost. I have had the opportunity to call people into positions, and it is always the same. A group of us will pray, I personally had a strong impression on a name I pondered on, and we all returned with the same exact name. Once one is called, they are set apart by the laying on of hands, with the power of the priesthood, which is the athurty of God, and given the the rights and privileges to perform in that calling. Many people with higher callings, such as a Bishop, will be given keys and authority as well. What other church do you know that does this? Who else do you know that has been called in this manner?

The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)

And most do--though not quite to the extent that the LDS Church does.

Correct

The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)

AMEN. But again, most are--some more than others. Now, to tweek this list a bit. The COJCLDS is made up roughly 50% from the 'home country' and 50% from other lands. Not a bad statistic. However, my own fellowship is about 10% American, and 90% other lands. Does that make my group more missionary than yours???

I think your missing the point. The gospel much be preached to every corner of the Earth and sound in every ear. Are missionaries have helped the church reach into almost every part of the world, and continue to bring more and more people unto Christ and into the water of baptism everyday. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15

The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)

Perhaps the NT Church was the beginning of that restoration?

We could open a whole other forum on the Great Apostasy. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a afamine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it. Amos 8:11 The great apostasy came after Jesus was crucified. Like I said, we could start a new forum on this, there is so much scripture that proves this.

The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)

WOW. This group really came up with this as an essential??? This one vague reference about an undefined practice that one church was doing becomes an essential ordinance--one making a top-17 list? I'm beginning to wonder about the credentials of this group.

The Bible is vague on this topic. Again, that is why more scripture has come forth. If everyone has need to be baptized to be saved, then what about all of those who have dies and did not have the opportunity? God love us very much, and gives us many opportunities.

"By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)

Excellent standard. Good fruits = good church, bad fruits = bad churches. I'm not sure you could narrow your choices down to one, based on this, however.

I understand you point of view on the list. I don't know who compiled this list, or who participated. I can only bare my testimony on the things I know to be true. I don't mean any offense to anyone. I am simply stating the things I know to be true. I don't like contention, and that is not how the Holy Ghost teaches. The Holy Ghost teaches with love and truth. That is how I come before you today, with love and humility. Even thought people may be have different beliefs than I, you are all still my neighbor. We have all been commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves. That's why I bring you these words with love, that it may help us all draw nearer to Christ. I have respect for anyone who has devoted their live to Christ no matter what church they belong to. I don't want to argue, but discuss the doctrine of God with the up most respect. Thank you all, I love you all, and I pray for you all. For I want peace to be upon all, and charity toward all men to commence.

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