Does God Love Everyone?

[JudoMinja]

Yes - that is one of the stock answers to the problem of evil. It is a reasonable and sufficient explanation to many things we experience. Suffering is educative. We grow because of it. It is for our good.

But that doesn't explain all evil. A simple example makes the point. A innocent toddler is kidnapped, tortured, raped and killed.

In what way is that for the child's good?

or

Why am I only allowed to suffer a little but Nigerians are blessed with horrific suffering?

Think how much more growth they are getting out of live than I am.

Great points! :) You always get me thinking harder. Let's deal with the toddler example first:

Since this ends with the child's death, I would personally interpret this scenario to have not been for the toddler's experience at all. Since (s)he is below the age of accountability, (s)he will automatically be blessed with exhaltation. Those innocents who die before the age of accountability for any reason are essentially only here for the purpose of receiving a body, as far as personal growth is concerned. The experience (s)he "briefly" (in the grand scheme of things) suffered likely gave the spirit a sufficient understanding of suffering to be able to offer compassion to others in the spirit world, and that was all (s)he needed to learn from mortality.

Overall though, this gives the offender and the family of the child their own opportunities for learning and growth had this never happened. If the child had not been killed in the end and eventually reached the age of accountability in his/her life, who knows what growth that experience might have brought. There are any number of possible scenarios for the feelings, choices, and actions that all involved will end up feeling/making. So many opportunities for lessons and Christ-like compassion on everyone's part.

Of course, the offender is responsible for his/her own actions too, and when judgement day comes the spirit who inhabited that toddler body will be there to stand as a witness and testify of his/her misdeeds. Think of all the innocent women and children burned in the fiery pit by their fellow neighbors for no other reason than that they believed on the words of Alma and Amulek and were baptised:

But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

(Alma 14:11)

Sometimes God does intervene and prevent some suffering from happening, but in situations like this one, nothing is done so that the requirements of both mercy and justice may be fulfilled at the last day. Had these atrocities been prevented, the wicked would have never really "chosen" to do wickedly, and the innocents who were harmed would not be able to witness against them. God allows these things to happen so that when judgement day comes, He is not punishing people for what they MIGHT have done had He not intervened, and those who suffered so that He could mete out that justice are infinitely blessed for that sacrifice.

Now, as for why some are "blessed" with more suffering than others:

God knows us all intimately, even better than we know ourselves. Because of that, he knows what experiences we can handle and what experiences we need so that we can learn and grow in those areas where we are weak. Some of us may have no need to experience physical suffering and/or may not have been able to endure it.

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

(1 Corinthians 10:13)

This scripture applies to each and every one of us. In part, it has to do with the atonement and the "escape" that we have all been granted through the Savior's suffering for us. However, it also means that our individual "needs" for suffering, experience, and temptations are being met. We will not be given an experience from which we personally cannot learn and grow. We will not be put under any strain or pressure that we personally cannot handle. Does that mean those who go through less suffering are "weaker"? Maybe not. Maybe there was just nothing they needed learn from the experience. And maybe yes... At least in those areas where they are not made to suffer. We all have weaknesses:

And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

(Ether 12:27)

And as said before- those who are placed in conditions of wealth are expected to share that wealth. We have a greater responsibility to show Christ-like compassion and give of our substance to those who have none. This responsibility itself can be a challenge and an opportunity for learning and growth. Some of us need to learn to give, while some need to learn to receive. Though the experiences are different, they are all specifically targeted toward the individual and can bring us to humility if we make the correct choices.

Edited August 26, 2011 by JudoMinja

[volgadon]

Why were they there?

Because more than likely they had been living there all their lives, and so did their parents.

[prophetofdoom]

The atheists' concept of God doesn't make much sense to me. They seem to believe that life on Earth should be a heavenly utopia where God intervenes right away when any wrong is committed.... They scoff at God because in his perfect love, he allows evil to exist so that we can have free agency.

They don't comprehend God's eternal perspective and plan for us to grow.

[volgadon]

The atheists' concept of God doesn't make much sense to me. They seem to believe that life on Earth should be a heavenly utopia where God intervenes right away when any wrong is committed....

Isaiah was an atheist? New one to me.

[Snow]

Great points! :) You always get me thinking harder. Let's deal with the toddler example first:

Since this ends with the child's death, I would personally interpret this scenario to have not been for the toddler's experience at all. Since (s)he is below the age of accountability, (s)he will automatically be blessed with exhaltation. Those innocents who die before the age of accountability for any reason are essentially only here for the purpose of receiving a body, as far as personal growth is concerned. The experience (s)he "briefly" (in the grand scheme of things) suffered likely gave the spirit a sufficient understanding of suffering to be able to offer compassion to others in the spirit world, and that was all (s)he needed to learn from mortality.

Overall though, this gives the offender and the family of the child their own opportunities for learning and growth had this never happened. If the child had not been killed in the end and eventually reached the age of accountability in his/her life, who knows what growth that experience might have brought. There are any number of possible scenarios for the feelings, choices, and actions that all involved will end up feeling/making. So many opportunities for lessons and Christ-like compassion on everyone's part.

You are offering two different solutions to the problem of evil so I'll respond to the insufficiency of each.

1. Yes, there was suffering, but in the big scheme of things, since later the child will be blessed, the suffering was no big deal - relatively speaking: I don't think that does justice to what people actually experience, it's like saying to the rape and torture victim, don't worry, I'll make it up to you later. If you could give the gift of exaltation to a children by torturing and murdering them, would you? Would any decent human being. Perish the thought, no.

2. Suffering is educative and the parents of the murdered child grow by virtue of the ordeal:

a) Often, it simply doesn't work out that way. People who go through such tragedy sometimes never get over it and are worse, not better for it.

b) So - what if parents do grow because of the tragedy of a child that is kidnaped and disappears, never to be found. What, however of a child that is taken, and then unbeknownst to anyone, is savaged and tortured and the body discarded never to be found. The parents certainly don't grow from the extra suffering of the child that they don't know about. That's suffering above and beyond the value that such suffering brings in growth for others.

[JudoMinja]

Snow,

These are indeed hard questions, and I don't have any greater answer than what I've already given. To say, "don't worry, I'll make it up to you later" does indeed seem insensitive on the surface. If that had been what I was told when I was in the middle of suffering through my own "tortures", I would have balked at it. However, I have grown from the experience in ways that I just would not have grown had I not endured the same trials. My growth and understanding of the world is part of how it has been "made up" to me. The rest, I'm sure, will come from blessings in the hereafter.

Alma 14:11 is one of the best scriptural responses in explaining why these things happen- The Lord holds back and allows it to happen so that He may later meet out justice. Think how unjust it would be if God punished us for sins we MAY have committed? I know that may seem to be a petty reason to allow suffering to happen, but it is very important. I think the reason this is such a difficult and seemingly insensitive concept is because we tend to think short-sighted. All suffering has some kind of purpose behind it, even if that purpose cannot be seen in this life. There is more going on after we die that we simply don't know about and cannot fully understand, and everything that we experience in this life is remembered by our spirits. Our spirits are continuing to learn and grow from the experiences we had in mortality.

God wants us to trust that His way is the best way and that it will all come together for our good, that it will all work out in the end. It would be easy to trust Him if we could make sense of everything on our own, if we could easily see for ourselves that yes this is best, this is all good for us. But we can't always see that. We can't always see our trials with God-like eyes. Sometimes, it can be very very hard to trust Him. But from my personal experience, when we DO trust Him, especially in those times when it is hard to do so, everything really does work out for the better. Eventually. Sometimes it takes quite a long time, but I always end up looking back on things with the hindsight that God's way does work. It may not have happened the way I would have planned it, but the results end up being something better than what I was originally planning to achieve.

[Backroads]

God is powerful

God is benevolent

Suffering exists

How can all three things be true.

Did not read all posts, so just my

Does benevolent mean 100% bent on making life great?

In my eyes, God does more or less let us do our own thing. I don't think this means He is any less loving, just not the "helicopter parent" sort of God. Yes, I do believe luck determines much of our lives. I don't agree that God is going to make our lives perfect. I don't believe suffering means there is no God. I don't think all suffering is educational and instructive and often just what is. I do believe we can learn from suffering, our own and others'. Perhaps I do lean more toward to the idea of God as a benevolent observer.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Backroads

[Vort]

Does benevolent mean 100% bent on making life great?

"Benevolent" --> "love Bennet"

Benevolent people are those who read Jane Austen.

[Backroads]

"Benevolent" --> "love Bennet"

Benevolent people are those who read Jane Austen.

I do love the Bennett sisters.

[Traveler]

You are offering two different solutions to the problem of evil so I'll respond to the insufficiency of each.

1. Yes, there was suffering, but in the big scheme of things, since later the child will be blessed, the suffering was no big deal - relatively speaking: I don't think that does justice to what people actually experience, it's like saying to the rape and torture victim, don't worry, I'll make it up to you later. If you could give the gift of exaltation to a children by torturing and murdering them, would you? Would any decent human being. Perish the thought, no.

2. Suffering is educative and the parents of the murdered child grow by virtue of the ordeal:

a) Often, it simply doesn't work out that way. People who go through such tragedy sometimes never get over it and are worse, not better for it.

b) So - what if parents do grow because of the tragedy of a child that is kidnaped and disappears, never to be found. What, however of a child that is taken, and then unbeknownst to anyone, is savaged and tortured and the body discarded never to be found. The parents certainly don't grow from the extra suffering of the child that they don't know about. That's suffering above and beyond the value that such suffering brings in growth for others.

Just a quick note with my opinion:

As I understand the benefits of coming to mortality is #1. To obtain a body. #2 To have a mortal experience.

The question is - does G-d love us? Answer = Yes. All of the suffering possible during a mortal experience is worth it. The reason is because of the Atonement. Through the atonement Jesus suffered more than any mortal is capable. Despite the worse suffering possible the atonement (that is freely given because of the love of G-d) makes mortality “worth it”.

The Traveler

[Guest fadedleaf]

There's a thread where we are discussing whether God answers prayers and how, in the face of evil and suffering, can there be a powerful God who is loving. That thread deals with one posters specific case so I'd like to separate out this issue from that specific case.

Recently my there was a priesthood lesson about the power of prayer and the well-intentioned teacher offered a recent example where he has lost his briefcase with important things it. Through prayer the contents came back into his possession.

Of course I asked why would God bless him with his iPad when he refuses to intervene to save children who are tortures, abused and killed... and he, of course, couldn't say, so he gave his testimony instead.

Every year over 3 1/2 million die of water pollution. A handful will die from it during the time it takes to read this post 15 million die of starvation, hundreds of them just while you read this post. 500,000,000 live in grinding. abject poverty. Crime, murder, rape, torture, genocide are rampart. The pain and suffering is incalculable.

On the other hand, most all of us are extremely well off - at least by comparison. We have housing, food, internet access, many have loving families, fulfilling careers, well-fed intellectual lives, favorite sports teams, diet coke.

We thank God for our blessings. Yet, if God is responsible for the food we thank Him for, He must also be responsible for the food that others don't have.

What's the difference between us and Somalians?

... the luck of where you happen to be born.

God is powerful

God is benevolent

Suffering exists

How can all three things be true.

Schadenfreude.

[kayne]

theres an excellent book called spiritual vision its about 130 pages that covers this to an extent.

basically the idea is God created a perfect world. but a perfect world of what exactly when there are obvious hyprocracies everywhere? he created a perfect world of free agency. essentially all this is allowed to happened solely due to free will so random and chaotic things like this come into play. The Lord lets things play out but He will step in from time to time but He needs Free will to take priority so He doesnt stop everything directly that would defy Free Will.

once you accept that this is a world of perfect free will it can be easier to stomach why some go through such evil and some dont.

granted a humans brain cant comprehend it too well. i do recommend that book it gives a better description than i am giving.

[Seminarysnoozer]

However, no one has been able to reconcile all suffering with the notion of a benevolent, just, and powerful God

That's because the reconciliation hasn't taken place yet. All will be made right at some point but we are not supposed to demand justice in this life, our reward is after this life.

What amount of suffering outweighs the idea of obtaining a Kingdom of Glory and an immortal body as a reward? If the Kingdom of Glory plus an immortal body is a greater gift than the amount of suffering experienced in this life then it is benevolent, isn't it?

[Blackmarch]

Because more than likely they had been living there all their lives, and so did their parents.

... and grand parents and etc... which of course was absolutely and in no way anyone's choice of action or reaction to a choice that someone made at some time?

[Seminarysnoozer]

You are offering two different solutions to the problem of evil so I'll respond to the insufficiency of each.

1. Yes, there was suffering, but in the big scheme of things, since later the child will be blessed, the suffering was no big deal - relatively speaking: I don't think that does justice to what people actually experience, it's like saying to the rape and torture victim, don't worry, I'll make it up to you later. If you could give the gift of exaltation to a children by torturing and murdering them, would you? Would any decent human being. Perish the thought, no.

2. Suffering is educative and the parents of the murdered child grow by virtue of the ordeal:

a) Often, it simply doesn't work out that way. People who go through such tragedy sometimes never get over it and are worse, not better for it.

b) So - what if parents do grow because of the tragedy of a child that is kidnaped and disappears, never to be found. What, however of a child that is taken, and then unbeknownst to anyone, is savaged and tortured and the body discarded never to be found. The parents certainly don't grow from the extra suffering of the child that they don't know about. That's suffering above and beyond the value that such suffering brings in growth for others.

I think there is another aspect to "education" that is difficult to measure and see in this life that comes from all experience which is, for lack of a better word right now, appreciation. Appreciation can really only be obtained by paying a price of some kind for the lesson learned which goes beyond simple education. We learned all we could learn in the pre-mortal life without having the opportunity to learn the lessons associated with the mortal existence. I can't say that I fully understand the value of appreciation but I believe that is important to our future growth and potential.

I think there is also a value to realization of an act, otherwise, spiritual creation alone would have been sufficient. If I could predict well enough the winner of a football tournament and hand out the trophy without anyone playing a game, even if I got it right, that wouldn't be as satisfying to the player if they didn't actually play the game. The sense of realizing an act completed, or having knowledge of an act completed contains a value greater than knowing what the outcome would have been theoretically or 'spiritually' created. With experiential knowledge comes appreciation. I think appreciation is contained in our love for our Savior. For many though this may not come until after the experience is over, there is a hindsight value to their experience that would be difficult to put a value on at this point.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Just a quick note with my opinion:

As I understand the benefits of coming to mortality is #1. To obtain a body. #2 To have a mortal experience.

The question is - does G-d love us? Answer = Yes. All of the suffering possible during a mortal experience is worth it. The reason is because of the Atonement. Through the atonement Jesus suffered more than any mortal is capable. Despite the worse suffering possible the atonement (that is freely given because of the love of G-d) makes mortality “worth it”.

The Traveler

I think tied into point #2 is the opportunity to reveal our true natures. For some, I suppose, the aspect of their true nature that needs to be revealed in this life may require specific challenges. They may not appreciate it in this life or comprehend it in this life but our 'true nature' doesn't necessarily require conscious application of knowledge, it may be spiritual natures that are revealed by simply enduring as much as possible.

My brother who has served in Iraq has shared stories explaining his surprise at how people were different in certain situations than what they said they would do back in training if they were in those situations. That situation revealed a lot about one's physical nature at least. I am sure God gathers proof of our spiritual natures in a similar manner of specific challenges and situations that are unique to our individual needs.

In other words, choosing the right answer 'on paper' is not the test we are facing here, we did that with keeping our first estate, now we are revealing our true choice through how we respond to our specific condition.

[volgadon]

... and grand parents and etc... which of course was absolutely and in no way anyone's choice of action or reaction to a choice that someone made at some time?

If you could find a spot on the earth without a single natural disaster that would allow everyone to live there comfortably, then you might have a point. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter where you are because sooner or later something will happen.

[Blackmarch]

If you could find a spot on the earth without a single natural disaster that would allow everyone to live there comfortably, then you might have a point. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter where you are because sooner or later something will happen.

what point do you think i'm trying to drive at?

[volgadon]

what point do you think i'm trying to drive at?

What do I think that you are driving at? That the victims of Katrina, etc., were there because they chose to be there, hence it is their fault that they became a victim.

At least that is how it reads.

[Snow]

What do I think that you are driving at? That the victims of Katrina, etc., were there because they chose to be there, hence it is their fault that they became a victim.

At least that is how it reads.

That's probably his point and he is probably correct, at least in part. Adults choose where they are going to live and people could choose not to live in an city that is 49% below sea level and sinking and subject to hurricanes. No place is completely safe but there's relatively safe and unsafe.

Anyone who's tried to run a business in NO can tell you that it not the most educated, stable, reliable workforce but even poor people make decisions. Do they have the same means and capacity of people in Malibu who choose to live there despite annual fires and floods? No, obviously not but people, rich and poor, are still agents and still make choices.

[bytebear]

God is powerful

God is benevolent

Suffering exists

How can all three things be true.

You've clearly never had a bone re-set by a doctor.

[Snow]

You've clearly never had a bone re-set by a doctor.

:):):)

[HoosierGuy]

Anyone who's tried to run a business in NO can tell you that it not the most educated, stable, reliable workforce but even poor people make decisions. Do they have the same means and capacity of people in Malibu who choose to live there despite annual fires and floods? No, obviously not but people, rich and poor, are still agents and still make choices.

If I were from NO I would be greatly offended by that statement. As someone not from NO I'm greatly offended by your statements about the people of NO.

A good book on suffering is by Bart Ehrman - God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question--Why We Suffer.

[FunkyTown]

Hello Snow.

I have read a few of your posts, and I'm going to make some observations that I'd like to get your input in to. You've made a few posts that, on the surface, seem to mock some pretty basic doctrine. My suspicion is that you're using these posts as a means of getting people to develop their own testimony of things by challenging them. You've, in mocking tones, poked fun at a few things I feel are relatively basic ideas:

1) That Satan can and does tempt man.

2) That prayer can and does influence the world.

Your threads aside for a second, is it your honest assertion that prayer does not influence the world? And is it your honest assertion that Satan cannot tempt us? Or is this an attempt at understanding difficult doctrine?

I ask because I suspect you know that certain things such as:

The nature of the veil between life and death and the capability of those beyond.

The ways and means by which a disembodied individual interacts with this world.

The physical expression of the means by which prayer and faith changes the world.

I suspect you recognize that no clinical discussion of those things exists within the standard works, or even in things like the King Follett discourse.

Any discussion of the deepest understanding of those will necessarily fall in to the realm of conjecture. I could certainly quote a list of scriptures that say 'Prayer influences the world' and 'Satan tempts us', but I suspect you aren't looking for a list of scriptures that disagree with you. By understanding your intention in this discussion, I think we can have a more meaningful discourse.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Retrieving the ipad can only be called a blessing if one keeps in mind that where much is given much is required. Otherwise it becomes a curse, a source for receiving many stripes. The inequalities of the world also have to be taken with the knowledge that God knows what was given and expects something different from those that are given more. Sometimes, what we call "blessings" are really just opportunities to serve more and have the opportunity to be a steward over more things. The unjust steward looks at these things we have compared to those in Somalia as the end of the story, as a blessing without added responsibility as if they "own" the blessing, it is just a stewardship.

Why some are given certain stewardships in this life compared to others has to do of God's knowledge of us in the pre-mortal life, knowing what stewardships we need individually to accomplish the things He wants us to do here. That is not anything we can figure out in this life, we can't look at someone at determine why they were given specific stewardships or lack of a stewardship in this life. For that same reason we can't judge how difficult one set of stewardships would be over another without knowing the spiritual make up of that person carrying the stewardship.

I think the first step in comprehending inequalities in this life is to first have a belief that where much is given much is required. The second step is to appreciate the idea that we revealed our needs, at least in part, through being valiant or not so valiant to an all knowing God before this life began.