On what do members of the LDS Church base their great faith?

[heidirunner]

Someone was worried about their friend who was swearing and gossiping. So I have been reading the Book of Mormon and the Bible. I found a verse that says no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven and ye cannot be saved in your sins. (Alma 11:37) So if we can't be saved "In" our sins, how can we be saved if we don't keep all the commandments?

[beefche]

Someone was worried about their friend who was swearing and gossiping. So I have been reading the Book of Mormon and the Bible. I found a verse that says no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven and ye cannot be saved in your sins. (Alma 11:37) So if we can't be saved "In" our sins, how can we be saved if we don't keep all the commandments?

Through and by the Atonement of Christ.

[heidirunner]

But it appears in Moroni 10:32 that IF we shall deny ourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, THEN his grace is sufficient for us... So what is this verse saying? Deny myself of ALL ungodliness then I can get God's grace?

[beefche]

Is there something wrong with denying ourselves of ungodliness? Are you suggesting we keep ungodliness with us?

[heidirunner]

No, but is it possible to deny ALL ungodliness so that we can receive God's grace? (see Moroni 10:32 What do you think it is saying/means)? How do we achieve the Atonement of Christ?

Edited October 6, 2011 by heidirunner
adding a question

[pam]

I have just started reading the book of Mormon

For someone that just started reading the Book of Mormon, you sure are skipping around it a lot and it all seems to be themed based. Have you just tried reading it through without any ulterior motive other than to discover if it is true or not?

[heidirunner]

I would want to know if anything were true before I started believing it. It soes not make sense to me that all religions can be correct, so of course I want to know if it is true! Don't you?

[pam]

I would want to know if anything were true before I started believing it. It soes not make sense to me that all religions can be correct, so of course I want to know if it is true! Don't you?

I already know and believe without a doubt it's true.

[Vort]

I would want to know if anything were true before I started believing it. It soes not make sense to me that all religions can be correct, so of course I want to know if it is true! Don't you?

Pam didn't ask you to start believing it. She suggested that you read the Book of Mormon with a desire to know if it is true. What fault do you find with that?

[heidirunner]

No, but she asked me to read it just to read it without any other motives. I take anything spiritual very serious and I will question it as I read it.

[pam]

No, but she asked me to read it just to read it without any other motives. I take anything spiritual very serious and I will question it as I read it.

So far you have found (according to your posts) nothing but fault with it. Is there anything positive you have read?

[heidirunner]

Yes! I love that Moroni 10:35 encourages us to study and pray. I also like where it talks about there being only one God. (Alma and 2 Nephi). I love that LDS people are generally sooo nice.

[Just_A_Guy]

No, but is it possible to deny ALL ungodliness so that we can receive God's grace?

Not all at once, perhaps. That's why Peter speaks of our growing in grace.

(see Moroni 10:32 What do you think it is saying/means)? How do we achieve the Atonement of Christ?

Read 2 Nephi 31.

[LeKook]

Hi Tim,

I am a recent convert (former Jehovah's Witness). I can state emphatically that what has been the major difference between this church and any other I've ever attended in the past 45 years or so is that the Holy Spirit is present and has given me an undeniable spiritual witness that this church is true, that Joseph Smith Jr. was a true prophet, and that Heavenly Father still leads this church through a living prophet today. It testifies of the gospel of Jesus Christ hundred percent of the time. The emphasis is NOT on Joseph Smith Jr. (as some say we "worship" Joseph Smith, which is untrue).

Since first reading the book of Mormon, and praying to know the truth as to whether it is true or not, the Holy Spirit has testified of its truth to me. Do I ever doubt things, based on something I read about the history of the church, etc.? Yes, I sure do. But the split second I take these concerns to God in prayer, I get the very powerful witness by the Holy Spirit that the gospel and this church are the real thing and that even though some of my questions will remain unanswered in my lifetime, it's okay.

There's a peace in receiving the testimony of the Holy Spirit that leads many of us to have unwavering faith regardless of what is going on in our lives. It's undeniable, real, and powerful. You can see the truth of this church in the lives of those who belong to it by seeing (as you indicate you have) the power it has had to change lives. I'd venture to say that all of us who have joined this church have in fact received supernatural verification of the truth it conveys to mankind.

The mistake often made is that people believe that what is taught is the words of humans. Ask God. He'll prove that they're HIS words, not the words of humans. He's just waiting to be asked in sincerity.

Oh, and nice to meet you! :)

-LeKook

[sister_in_faith]

Very nicely put LeKook!!! i feel exactly the same way. I know that I don't know the answers to all the critic's questions but the spirit has told me that this is true, and so none of that bothers me... I always keep in mind that the devil likes nothing more than pulling people away from the church, and is doing his best to confuse us.

[LeKook]

Very nicely put LeKook!!! i feel exactly the same way. I know that I don't know the answers to all the critic's questions but the spirit has told me that this is true, and so none of that bothers me... I always keep in mind that the devil likes nothing more than pulling people away from the church, and is doing his best to confuse us.

I'm no ostrich, LOL!!! I'll look at the "evidence" that's presented, yes, and I'll think about it, yes. But after I've done all that, I'll pray about it, just like I did when I prayed to know of the Book of Mormon was true. That's what I go on, that solid testimony of the Holy Spirit. If I get no response (hasn't happened yet) I'll rethink. To date, though, I've always gotten a clear "Yes, the church is true," in spite of whatever evidence I've seen supposedly to the contrary.

This isn't at all like when I was with Jehovah's Witnesses. I would pray about things that made no sense to me, and get no answer at all. My response to that was 9 years of forcing myself to "suspend my disbelief" in some of their teachings that I didn't understand, and hoping I'd get that peace of knowing and understanding some of it. In all of that time I never get that peace or such a solid YES or NO.

A "yes" from Holy Spirit is very quiet but loud at the same time, LOL!!! It's such a departure from trying to reason things through or blindly accept things that it's totally undeniable - if you get a witness from the Holy Spirit there is no way you can't know what it is or where it's from. :)

[applepansy]

Hi Tim,

I am a recent convert (former Jehovah's Witness). I can state emphatically that what has been the major difference between this church and any other I've ever attended in the past 45 years or so is that the Holy Spirit is present and has given me an undeniable spiritual witness that this church is true, that Joseph Smith Jr. was a true prophet, and that Heavenly Father still leads this church through a living prophet today. It testifies of the gospel of Jesus Christ hundred percent of the time. The emphasis is NOT on Joseph Smith Jr. (as some say we "worship" Joseph Smith, which is untrue).

Since first reading the book of Mormon, and praying to know the truth as to whether it is true or not, the Holy Spirit has testified of its truth to me. Do I ever doubt things, based on something I read about the history of the church, etc.? Yes, I sure do. But the split second I take these concerns to God in prayer, I get the very powerful witness by the Holy Spirit that the gospel and this church are the real thing and that even though some of my questions will remain unanswered in my lifetime, it's okay.

There's a peace in receiving the testimony of the Holy Spirit that leads many of us to have unwavering faith regardless of what is going on in our lives. It's undeniable, real, and powerful. You can see the truth of this church in the lives of those who belong to it by seeing (as you indicate you have) the power it has had to change lives. I'd venture to say that all of us who have joined this church have in fact received supernatural verification of the truth it conveys to mankind.

The mistake often made is that people believe that what is taught is the words of humans. Ask God. He'll prove that they're HIS words, not the words of humans. He's just waiting to be asked in sincerity.

Oh, and nice to meet you! :)

-LeKook

Congratulations? When were you baptized? I'm so happy for you.

[LeKook]

Hi Applepansy,

I was baptized on 9/4, confirmed on 9/11 of this year. :) I'm so happy for me, too! LOL!!! Great to meet you!

-LeKook

[heidirunner]

What makes a true prophet?

[LeKook]

What makes a true prophet?

A true prophet speaks the words of God and the Holy Spirit bears witness with the hearer of those words that the words spoken come forth from God through the prophet. It's a supernatural process, the prophet acting as messenger or mouthpiece for God.

I've heard lots of words that people have told me are from God, and have never had the testimony of the Holy Spirit bear witness that the words were true. At best, I had to either hope they were true, or suspend my decision to believe or disbelieve until another time.

I'm so glad I know the difference now between knowing something is true and merely hoping something is true. Knowing something is true is so much better! :)

[Vort]

What makes a true prophet?

The Holy Ghost.

[LeKook]

The Holy Ghost.

Well stated, Vort. :)

[heidirunner]

DOesn't a prophet have to always be right?

[JudoMinja]

DOesn't a prophet have to always be right?

King David was a prophet, but he committed murder and adultery.

Abraham was a prophet, but he lied and said that Sariah was his sister instead of his wife.

Jonah was a prophet, but he fled the job God had given him.

These are all examples of prophets doing and/or saying something wrong. Does this negate the fact that they were prophets? No. They were still prophets, but they were also human and prone to imperfection.

A prophet is the mouthpiece of God, able to receive revelation directly from heaven and communicate that revelation to us. A prophet can also be the hand of God, working his miracles and justice. But that does not mean a prophet is always speaking God's word, is always doing God's handiwork. They are still themselves, still human.

[LeKook]

DOesn't a prophet have to always be right?

If you mean correct in what they state 100% of the time, I can't answer that question. I know of Deut. 18:22, which states:

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

I can't think of any prophet that has had predictions come true in their entirety. Some predictions aren't supposed to occur until the very last days, so those haven't come to pass yet - if we can't know what happens past our own lifetimes, how can we prove 100% accuracy? Also you have to determine the correct meaning of a given prophecy, whether it is symbolic or literal, and once you determine that much, whether or not your literal or symbolic interpretation is accurate.

For example, what are "Babylon the Great" and "Gog and Magog" that are spoken of in prophecy in the Bible? Nobody seems to know. Everyone takes a good guess and moves on.

Bottom line is, I can't answer your question, really. This one I'll leave to the more knowledgeable amongst us. :) Curious to know the answer for myself!