Numerical Singularity

[peteolcott]

Isaiah 45:6

I am the Lord and there is none else. (Nothing besides God exists)

John 17:21

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (One and the same as, numerical singularity)

Galations 5:14

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Your neighbor IS yourself)

The Holy Spirit will confirm the above.

Moroni 10:4

if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Because I have directly experienced this singularity (mystical union with God) hundreds of times, I am pretty sure that my interpretation of the above verses can not be incorrect.

By "union with God" I mean the case when one's will and God's will become one-and-the-same. It is in this sense that I refer to numerical singularity. I am not saying that human individuality will ever cease to be.

Edited November 7, 2011 by peteolcott

[pam]

I've sent you an email to the email addy that we have on file. There is a slight issue regarding your registration. It's an easy fix. :)

Until then, I'll close this until we get that taken care of. Then I'll be happy to reopen it. :)

[pam]

Thanks for your awesome quick response. Thread is now reopened.

[pam]

Galations 5:14

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Your neighbor IS yourself)

Howard W. Hunter said this:

“I suggest to you that the Lord has prepared a touchstone for you and me, an outward measurement of inward discipleship that marks our faithfulness and will survive the fires yet to come. …

“The answer of Jesus to the lawyer might be considered as the Lord’s touchstone. He said on another occasion, ‘Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me’ (Matt. 25:40). He will measure our devotion to him by how we love and serve our fellowmen. What kind of mark are we leaving on the Lord’s touchstone? Are we truly good neighbors? Does the test show us to be 24-karat gold, or can the trace of fool’s gold be detected?

“… We need to remember that though we make our friends, God has made our neighbors—everywhere. Love should have no boundary; we should have no narrow loyalties” (“Following the Master: Teachings of President Howard W. Hunter,” Ensign, Apr. 1995, 23)

So how do you get the idea that thy neighbor IS yourself?

Edited October 30, 2011 by pam

[NeuroTypical]

The Holy Spirit will confirm the above.

He never has before. We're not Zen Buddhists here, we're Mormons. We believe in a Godhead, not a Trinity. We believe in intelligences, not one big intelligence.

I mean, fringe doctrine is all fine and well and everything, but no, the Holy Ghost tends to not confirm fringe doctrine like you're claiming. If He did, it wouldn't be fringe doctrine any more, now would it.

[Snow]

Isaiah 45:6

I am the Lord and there is none else. (Nothing besides God exists)

John 17:21

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (One and the same as, numerical singularity)

Which verse do you want people to believe - that there is one Lord and NONE else or that there are multiples deities that are, in some sense, one/unified?

Galations 5:14

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Your neighbor IS yourself)

Uh - no. One is not one's neighbor. One is one's self and the neighbor is someone else who is close to one's self.

Words have meaning - you can look it up.

[Justice]

Galations 5:14

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Your neighbor IS yourself)

As long as we're being technical, this scripture contradicts itself. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" is seven words not one.

[Vort]

As long as we're being technical, this scripture contradicts itself. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" is seven words not one.

Clearly, Galations 5:14 was originally written in a highly agglutinative language.

[prisonchaplain]

Which verse do you want people to believe - that there is one Lord and NONE else or that there are multiples deities that are, in some sense, one/unified?

Can't speak for him, but I would have you believe there is one and NONE else, and make Jesus' deity fit that notion. Hey...you asked what I wanted.

[Spartan117]

Jesus saith unto him, I am the away, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

We're all agreed on this point, and since the other details aren't essential for salvation, can't we all just get along?

[prisonchaplain]

Jesus saith unto him, I am the away, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

We're all agreed on this point, and since the other details aren't essential for salvation, can't we all just get along?

Sure... follow me.

[peteolcott]

Howard W. Hunter said this:

“I suggest to you that the Lord has prepared a touchstone for you and me, an outward measurement of inward discipleship that marks our faithfulness and will survive the fires yet to come. …

“The answer of Jesus to the lawyer might be considered as the Lord’s touchstone. He said on another occasion, ‘Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me’ (Matt. 25:40). He will measure our devotion to him by how we love and serve our fellowmen. What kind of mark are we leaving on the Lord’s touchstone? Are we truly good neighbors? Does the test show us to be 24-karat gold, or can the trace of fool’s gold be detected?

“… We need to remember that though we make our friends, God has made our neighbors—everywhere. Love should have no boundary; we should have no narrow loyalties” (“Following the Master: Teachings of President Howard W. Hunter,” Ensign, Apr. 1995, 23)

So how do you get the idea that thy neighbor IS yourself?

The message that I am proposing is very difficult and few ever get it. I know the truth of this message in very many different ways. Ultimately the one way that carries the most weight is extensive confirmation by the Holy Spirit.

Here is a very tiny little hint that carries almost no weight at all. If you very carefully study Galatians 5:14 you will see that it is not saying that one should

love one's neighbor as one loves oneself.

It is saying to love one's neighber as oneself.

If you take this verse to say exactly and precisely what it means and mean exactly and precisely what it says then one can not insert any words that are not already there.

[peteolcott]

Which verse do you want people to believe - that there is one Lord and NONE else or that there are multiples deities that are, in some sense, one/unified?

Isaiah 45:6 "I am the Lord, and there is none else"

If the above verse is taken as a precise mathematical specification (no weasel wording allowed) then it literally states that God exactly equals the mathematical universal set.

In other non mathematical terms this means that {God exists and nothing at all besides God exists}.

Ultimately my understanding of the meaning of this verse does not come from Math, or English or even Hebrew. It comes from direct revelation by God himself.

[volgadon]

Isaiah 45:6 "I am the Lord, and there is none else"

If the above verse is taken as a precise mathematical specification (no weasel wording allowed) then it literally states that God exactly equals the mathematical universal set.

In other non mathematical terms this means that {God exists and nothing at all besides God exists}.

Ultimately my understanding of the meaning of this verse does not come from Math, or English or even Hebrew. It comes from direct revelation by God himself.

Why do we have to take an ancient Judean text as a precise mathematical specification?

[MarginOfError]

Why do we have to take an ancient Judean text as a precise mathematical specification?

Because, obviously, the concept of zero is heretical.

[FunkyTown]

The message that I am proposing is very difficult and few ever get it. I know the truth of this message in very many different ways. Ultimately the one way that carries the most weight is extensive confirmation by the Holy Spirit.

Here is a very tiny little hint that carries almost no weight at all. If you very carefully study Galatians 5:14 you will see that it is not saying that one should

love one's neighbor as one loves oneself.

It is saying to love one's neighber as oneself.

If you take this verse to say exactly and precisely what it means and mean exactly and precisely what it says then one can not insert any words that are not already there.

Mystifying.

You changed the words in 'Love thy neighbor as thyself' and then choose a non-traditional interpretation of those words and claim it as ironclad inherent within the wording itself, then claim that any other interpretation is adding words.

However, I am going to call you out on that. If we take the direct and literal meaning of those words, then it is saying:

Love thy neighbor as thyself.

This means that the direct and literal translation is saying for you to pretend your neighbor is you and to act for all intents and purposes as if you were loving yourself, but towards your neighbor.

So:

1) Always call your neighbor by your own name. After all, it says to love thy neighbor as thyself. That is: Your neighbor IS yourself.

2) Ignore your neighbors wants and needs and instead love them as if their wants and needs were your own. This is because you are supposed to love your neighbor as thyself. "Hey-hey, me! Since you live in my home, it's clear that nobody lives in that home that everybody else in the world thinks we live in. While you were on vacation, I sold everything in it and knocked down the house to build an addition on to our home. Because I love you.'

3) Always love your neighbor by assuming they are you. Do they have a job you'd hate? Submit a resignation for them. After all, you still have your job. Why do you need a second one that you dislike?

This is silly goosery at its finest. If there are several interpretations of words, claiming your interpretation to be correct by fiat simply by repeating the words doesn't make you correct.

[Spartan117]

Because, obviously, the concept of zero is heretical.

Only in division.

[peteolcott]

Why do we have to take an ancient Judean text as a precise mathematical specification?

It only by taking these words precisely that the truth is derived. This truth has been confirmed by direct revelation.

[peteolcott]

Mystifying.

You changed the words in 'Love thy neighbor as thyself' and then choose a non-traditional interpretation of those words and claim it as ironclad inherent within the wording itself, then claim that any other interpretation is adding words.

However, I am going to call you out on that. If we take the direct and literal meaning of those words, then it is saying:

Love thy neighbor as thyself.

This means that the direct and literal translation is saying for you to pretend your neighbor is you and to act for all intents and purposes as if you were loving yourself, but towards your neighbor.

So:

1) Always call your neighbor by your own name. After all, it says to love thy neighbor as thyself. That is: Your neighbor IS yourself.

2) Ignore your neighbors wants and needs and instead love them as if their wants and needs were your own. This is because you are supposed to love your neighbor as thyself. "Hey-hey, me! Since you live in my home, it's clear that nobody lives in that home that everybody else in the world thinks we live in. While you were on vacation, I sold everything in it and knocked down the house to build an addition on to our home. Because I love you.'

3) Always love your neighbor by assuming they are you. Do they have a job you'd hate? Submit a resignation for them. After all, you still have your job. Why do you need a second one that you dislike?

This is silly goosery at its finest. If there are several interpretations of words, claiming your interpretation to be correct by fiat simply by repeating the words doesn't make you correct.

Isaiah 45:6 "I am the Lord, and there is none else"

If you take everything that I said within the context of everything else that I said your analysis becomes incorrect. Your neighbor is yourself only in the sense that nothing is not God. God is the one (numerically singular) self of all.

[FunkyTown]

Isaiah 45:6 "I am the Lord, and there is none else"

If you take everything that I said within the context of everything else that I said your analysis becomes incorrect. Your neighbor is yourself only in the sense that nothing is not God. God is the one (numerically singular) self of all.

If you take everything I said within the context of everything else that I said, your analysis becomes incorrect. Your neighbour is yourself in the sense that he is you.

[NeuroTypical]

Hi peteolcott,

Please understand, we understand that you belive you've had this interpretation confirmed by direct revelation. It's just that we are not bound to believe.

From what I can tell, revealation and stewardship are closely related in this church. I get revealation for me and my family - not for those outside my stewardship. Bishops get revealation for members of their ward - not other wards.

The only folks who have stewardship over all the membership of the church, sit behind the pulpit during General Conference. It is through them, that a revealation that applies to all church members comes. And when I hear them speak, they talk about my literal status as child of my Heavenly Father, my inheritance of a divine birthright. As they read and expound on the scriptures, they speak of individuals, of vast numbers of intelligences, of family structure existing not only here but throughout the eternities. A very different picture than your uber-literal interpretation of "there is none else".

So, I respect you, but no, I'm not buying. Should the prophets, seers, and revealators of this church change their tune, I'll take a new look at it.

[volgadon]

It only by taking these words precisely that the truth is derived. This truth has been confirmed by direct revelation.

That does not answer my question. I can take these words precisely without having to treat them as a precise mathematical specification. I am not really impressed by you direct revelation bit either. I am not required to believe any revelation contradicting established doctrine unless it comes from the Lord's designated and authorised representative on this earth. You'll have to do better to establish the validity of your prooftext for panentheism.

Watch the video below. Is he really saying that the bathroom does not, has never, and never will exist?

I can provide plenty of examples of how "one" in the Bible and the world surrounding it was not a precise mathematical specification.

[volgadon]

Because, obviously, the concept of zero is heretical.

Math is heretical.

[peteolcott]

If you take everything I said within the context of everything else that I said, your analysis becomes incorrect. Your neighbour is yourself in the sense that he is you.

Good, that is it too.

[peteolcott]

Hi peteolcott,

Please understand, we understand that you belive you've had this interpretation confirmed by direct revelation. It's just that we are not bound to believe.

From what I can tell, revealation and stewardship are closely related in this church. I get revealation for me and my family - not for those outside my stewardship. Bishops get revealation for members of their ward - not other wards.

The only folks who have stewardship over all the membership of the church, sit behind the pulpit during General Conference. It is through them, that a revealation that applies to all church members comes. And when I hear them speak, they talk about my literal status as child of my Heavenly Father, my inheritance of a divine birthright. As they read and expound on the scriptures, they speak of individuals, of vast numbers of intelligences, of family structure existing not only here but throughout the eternities. A very different picture than your uber-literal interpretation of "there is none else".

So, I respect you, but no, I'm not buying. Should the prophets, seers, and revealators of this church change their tune, I'll take a new look at it.

That is fine with me. I am drawn to the Mormons because of the fruits of the spirit that I see in them. Also many of the unique doctrines of the LDS have been confirmed to me by the Holy Spirit long before I also knew that they were Mormon doctrine.