Job

[bytor2112]

Does Satan converse with God often? Are there others that the Lord asks Satan if he has considered? Why can Satan,,,,who had been cast out....come and converse with God?

Why does the Lord ask Satan."whence thou comest?" Surely HE knows already.....

The story of Job disturbs me greatly. So, Satan showed up with the "sons of God"? Archangels? :confused:

[Vort]

The book of Job is a fable, a fairy tale. Job himself may have been a real man, but the presentation of the book of Job is very obviously the presentation of a morality tale, not a straight history.

[bytor2112]

So, no leviathon?

[bytor2112]

The book of Job is a fable, a fairy tale. Job himself may have been a real man, but the presentation of the book of Job is very obviously the presentation of a morality tale, not a straight history.

So, the Lord is creating a fable....about a real man? Consider Ezekial:

Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Real people....but fabled lives?

[volgadon]

You need to take a look at Hebrew. It says "ha-satan." In Hebrew "ha" is the definitive article, like "the" in English. It isn't attached to personal names. In the Book of Job the satan has a role like that of a prosecutor in court.

[prisonchaplain]

I doubt I'll answer your concerns, but I love the book of Job. If we had special saints, he'd qualify as a patron saint for prisoners. It is believed that Job may have been the first biblical book penned, so Job knew not the law of Moses, and had no scripture. It is very likely he relied on oral tradition, and upon personal revelation. He experienced loss of family, wealth and health (do you see why prisoners can relate???) He wife tells him to curse God, and his friends tell him that God is cursing him! In the end, he gets double what he lost, his friends are told that Job will act as their priest, and, while he gets 7 sons, his daughters are the ones named, and they are declared the most beautiful in the land. Hey...I've got three daughters, so I'm biased!

I also find no reason to think that Job could not have been a personal account, or one written by an acquaintance.

[annewandering]

I also find no reason to think that Job could not have been a personal account, or one written by an acquaintance.

Didnt some one say that only the songs of solomon are not scripture?

[Vort]

So, the Lord is creating a fable....about a real man? Consider Ezekial:

Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Real people....but fabled lives?

Once, when George Washington was a child, his father gave him a brand new hatchet, sized just for him. Elated, little George went out to test out his new hatchet, and cut down one of his father's cherry saplings. His father found the tree cut down, returned to the house, and demanded to know who had done this. Little George replied, "Father, I cannot tell a lie. I did it with my little hatchet."

Please note two things related to this famous story:

• So far as anyone has been able to determine, the story is a complete fabrication, with no basis at all in literal reality. It is a morality fable, nothing more.
• George Washington was still a real person, an actual historical figure, and the morality tale was designed to highlight personal moral attributes for which Washington was famous.

Real people. Fabled lives.

[Blackmarch]

Does Satan converse with God often? Are there others that the Lord asks Satan if he has considered? Why can Satan,,,,who had been cast out....come and converse with God?

Why does the Lord ask Satan."whence thou comest?" Surely HE knows already.....

The story of Job disturbs me greatly. So, Satan showed up with the "sons of God"? Archangels? :confused:

Well its highly likely that the account of Job is more of a story to illustrate a concept than trying to remain historically accurate. That is my first take on it.

However let us suppose its literally true.... Why should it be disturbing? As god can hear all things, one would suppose that even one in Hell could theoretically send a mesage to God, and considering that the devils have not been completely bound yet, we could also consider that its not that big of an issue the devil was able to cause some form of misfortune to Job.

as for why God asks a question, its the same reason he asks us questions- to get us to think deeper on what we are about to do or say.

Edit- another possible reason, is for legality sakes.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Blackmarch

[prisonchaplain]

Didnt some one say that only the songs of solomon are not scripture?

Joseph Smith apparently did not think so. Others here have told me so. I grew up being taught that the Song of Solomon was the greatest of his proverbs--put to song, of course.

SONG OF SONGS - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

Edited November 26, 2011 by prisonchaplain

[Traveler]

There are many parables in scripture as well as some possible myths such as the Prodigal Son or the Good Samaritan. In my mind these parables are not a question about whether or not the principles and finer points of doctrine are true or not. Sometimes I think we can analyze such things to death and live without understanding the messages G-d gives to us.

Let me propose some thoughts about the Book of Job. I will start with the assumption that the doctrines and principles are all true. Let’s start with at the beginning with Satan coming before G-d as G-d sets on his thrown in heaven. I assume that this part of the story is actually true and teaching us some very important notions about the nature of G-d.

What I propose is that when man fell – that the fall was real. Man was excommunicated from the society of Heaven where G-d the Father is the king. Thus being exiled man became, in essence a people without a country – and this would include G-d. Think about what the fall as an exile from heaven meant in reality.

As the first step to saving mankind – Jesus became the G-d of the exiled from heaven peoples. He has all authority to reign and is the one and only sovereign Suzerain G-d of those in exile. This would mean that Satan could come before Jesus (as he did on earth) – to tempt our G-d of exile – Jesus Christ or the Great I AM. I would also point out this is not unusual behavior for Satan – he has not changed his strips.

The Book of Job does indicate that Satan has the power to tempt man; given to him by the sovereign G-d of this kingdom of fallen man. It is not contrary at all to the doctrines and teachings that Satan was exiled from the kingdom of heaven. It also explains why Satan is among us, even today to try us in our covenants. It also is consistent in explaining why man needs a mediator and a savior to end our state of exile.

I agree with Prisonchaplain – the Book of Job is a beautiful book of sacred scripture and is very necessary in order to understand important things pertaining to our relationship with G-d (Jesus Christ) as our King in exile. Without the Book of Job – even more precious truths would be lost from the Bible.

The Traveler

Edited November 26, 2011 by Traveler

[mikbone]

Does Satan converse with God often? Are there others that the Lord asks Satan if he has considered? Why can Satan,,,,who had been cast out....come and converse with God?

Why does the Lord ask Satan."whence thou comest?" Surely HE knows already.....

The story of Job disturbs me greatly. So, Satan showed up with the "sons of God"? Archangels? :confused:

Id like to address the original question in this thread.

It does appear that God and Lucifer do have some sort of agreement. God allows Lucifer to stay here on Earth to temp mankind. God could have exiled Satan to some other location but He didn't. Lucifer was allowed to enter into the Garden of Eden which was in a paradisical state much like the Terrestrial Kingdom. The temple narrative displays interaction between God and Satan.

We have excellent records from both Joseph Smith and Moses that they each were tempted/visited by Lucifer prior to having the direct revelation from God. Even Jesus Christ was temped face to face directly by Lucifer.

It is obvious to me that Lucifer has a role to play that was set forth during the pre-mortal existence. There must be rules that were agreed upon by both God and Lucifer concerning direct interaction between the Gods, Lucifer, and man.

Lucifer is a conundrum in my mind. I cannot understand his motivation. Does he have a mentor? Is there any possibility of redemption for him. Is He a good guy playing a difficult role??? I don't know. And every time I consider him I come up confused.

[bytor2112]

Id like to address the original question in this thread.

It does appear that God and Lucifer do have some sort of agreement. God allows Lucifer to stay here on Earth to temp mankind. God could have exiled Satan to some other location but He didn't. Lucifer was allowed to enter into the Garden of Eden which was in a paradisical state much like the Terrestrial Kingdom. The temple narrative displays interaction between God and Satan.

We have excellent records from both Joseph Smith and Moses that they each were tempted/visited by Lucifer prior to having the direct revelation from God. Even Jesus Christ was temped face to face directly by Lucifer.

It is obvious to me that Lucifer has a role to play that was set forth during the pre-mortal existence. There must be rules that were agreed upon by both God and Lucifer concerning direct interaction between the Gods, Lucifer, and man.

Lucifer is a conundrum in my mind. I cannot understand his motivation. Does he have a mentor? Is there any possibility of redemption for him. Is He a good guy playing a difficult role??? I don't know. And every time I consider him I come up confused.

Exactly. I do not look at Job as a fable per say, but rather symbolic of real events. Christ's Atonement is Infinite and Eternal.....can Lucifer repent or the 1/3 part that were cast out. Do they have a role to play in the great plan? My thoughts exactly.

[mordorbund]

I saw this on askgramps and was reminded of this thread.

Can Satan be in the presence of God? | Ask Gramps

[Martain]

Can Lucifer and those who fell with him repent? Is there any possiblility of redemption for him? Is he a good guy playing a difficult role?

Say to the brothers Hulet and to all others, that the Lord never authorized them to say that the devil, his angels, or the sons of perdition, should ever be restored; for their state of destiny was not revealed to man, is not revealed, nor ever shall be revealed, save to those who are made partakers thereof: consequently those who teach this doctrine have not received it of the Spirit of the Lord. Truly Brother Oliver declared it to be the doctrine of devils. We, therefore, command that this doctrine be taught no more in Zion. We sanction the decision of the Bishop and his council, in relation to this doctrine being a bar to communion. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 21)

25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is aallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—

29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.

30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

Satan and his hosts can not repent [D&C 76:34-35]. Satan and his hosts can not be redeemed [D&C 76:38.

What is his motivation?

There are many answers to that question but here are at least two.

He lusts for power [D&C 76:28].

He wants all of mankind to be as miserable as he is [2 Nephi 2:18].

2 Nephi 2:18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind.

So, Satan showed up with the "sons of God"? Archangels?

The footnotes to Job 1:6 'Sons' links to Genesis 6:2. In the Old Testament Institute Manual, published by the LDS Church, we have a quote by Joseph Fielding Smith where he explains that the 'sons of God' were those who held the Priesthood.

Rather than Archangels, Job 1:6 refers to the covenant people of the Lord's church at that time. Job 1:6 doesn't necessarily mean that anyone saw the Lord or Satan any more than we do when we likewise present ourselves to the Lord in this day.

Does Satan converse with God often?

Job 1:7 indicates that it was the Lord who initiated the conversation. The Lord may be referring to Christ rather than God the Father. There has been many times where the Lord has conversed with others by voice alone keeping his Glory and presence veiled. Could it not have been the same here? Since it states only that they converse, must we conclude that Satan beheld the Lord?

Why does the Lord ask Satan."whence thou comest?" Surely HE knows already.....

Unless the Lord desired it, Satan would not know of his presence. Though he knew already why Satan was there, one does need to actually say something to initiate a conversation. Why not say something that would also be informative to the reader upon the story being told?

Are there others that the Lord asks Satan if he has considered?

Why wouldn't there be? Job does after all set a precedent for such to happen.

John Taylor, the third President of the Church, said: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say, in speaking to the Twelve on one occasion: ‘You will have all kinds of trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God, and (said he) God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God.’ … Joseph Smith never had many months of peace after he received the truth, and finally he was murdered in Carthage jail.” (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith)

Nevertheless we have these words of comfort.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Lucifer is a conundrum in my mind and every time I consider him I come up confused.

A book that I feel would help you in this matter can be found here with additional light shed here.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Martain

[mnn727]

The book of Job is a fable, a fairy tale. Job himself may have been a real man, but the presentation of the book of Job is very obviously the presentation of a morality tale, not a straight history.

Wow, I thought I was the only one that thought Job was a faith promoting story with little basis in reality.

[RescueMom]

Heaven is where Margrethe is.

What I learned about Job.

[Vort]

Wow, I thought I was the only one that thought Job was a faith promoting story with little basis in reality.

Do not mistake my meaning. I do not believe Job "was a faith promoting story". I believe Job was probably a real man who underwent terrible trials. I think the presentation of the story of Job is a fable, a morality tale, what with Satan and God chatting it up and deciding how they're going to put Job to the test so that God can come out the winner.