Illegal immigrants, baptism & temple marriage

[Bini]

I got a couple questions. I may be misunderstanding how the church operates. I appreciate all responses, be it official church policy or your own personal experience.

1) Can illegal immigrants be baptised and married in the temple?

2) If not. How does the church balance encouraging illegal immigrants that are interested in the gospel but are unable to fulfill certain expectations and ordinances due to their current status? It seems a bit devastating to be welcomed with open arms, only to learn that you are unfit to be baptised or be married in the temple. What are their options? Are they to never receive a church calling? Are they to remain single, without spouse or family? It just seems that this situation prevents one from ever being able to live the fullness of the gospel.

[beefche]

1) Yes

2) See #1.

[annewandering]

There was a bishop in SL that was deported recently. He had lived here forever and had tried to get his legality problems sorted but ended up being deported.

[pam]

1) Yes

2) See #1.

1. Ditto

2. Ditto

[mnn727]

I have to disagree with the above answers.

How can you get past the Temple Recommend question of "Are you honest in your dealings with others?" when you are in this country illegally - a yes answer would be a lie.

Has it happened? I'm sure it has, but should it?

[beefche]

mnn, do you think the First Presidency is unaware of the immigration issues in this country? Do you think that they haven't instructed stake presidents on such?

[sister_in_faith]

I have to disagree with the above answers.

How can you get past the Temple Recommend question of "Are you honest in your dealings with others?" when you are in this country illegally - a yes answer would be a lie.

Has it happened? I'm sure it has, but should it?

Interesting point. I wonder if you could get a temple recommend if there is a warrant out for your arrest? Kind of the same thing?

[sister_in_faith]

Or perhaps if there is a warrant out for homicide you can't have a TR, but if you have a warrant for unpaid traffic tickets you could. Where would they draw the line?

[james12]

I have to disagree with the above answers.

How can you get past the Temple Recommend question of "Are you honest in your dealings with others?" when you are in this country illegally - a yes answer would be a lie.

Has it happened? I'm sure it has, but should it?

If you disagree with the above answers then you are wrong. The question was: Can illegal immigrants can be baptized and married in the temple? The answer is "yes". Here is a statement from the church newsroom:

The First Presidency has for many years taught that undocumented status should not by itself prevent an otherwise worthy Church member from entering the temple or being ordained to the priesthood.

Responsibility of Church Members: Avoiding Being Judgmental - LDS Newsroom

[Just_A_Guy]

I have to disagree with the above answers.

How can you get past the Temple Recommend question of "Are you honest in your dealings with others?" when you are in this country illegally - a yes answer would be a lie.

Has it happened? I'm sure it has, but should it?

The trouble is, if the person answers "yes", I'm not sure it's really the Bishop's prerogative to go on a fishing expedition for answers re one's immigration status any more than it's his prerogative to ask to review your 1040 to ensure that you filled it out correctly, or asks to put a GPS on your car to ensure that you never speed.

And, quite frankly, there are some things that the Church values more than complete honesty with the legal authorities. In bygone days, we considered plural marriage more important that compliance with statutory norms. Specific members--and the Church as a whole--engaged in some pretty flagrant misdirection, and no one lost their temple recommends because of that.

Politically, I'm pretty hardcore anti-illegal immigration. But the Church has decided that keeping families together, working in a first-world country, and living in a place where the Church is relatively powerful and has a well-developed missionary program; is a higher priority than whatever cultural/national interests that guide you and I to our respective political positions. I understand that the Church does allow illegals to serve missions, and even takes the trouble to assign them stateside missions and transport them on buses (rather than airplanes) so as not to put such missionaries in awkward situations with immigration authorities. I may not be 100% comfortable with that; but ultimately it isn't my decision and I do have a testimony that President Monson and the Twelve generally know what they're doing.

[dahlia]

Well, lie about one thing for your recommend, why not lie about everything else? Maybe you take some coffee in the morning or a few beers when you get home, or you come into a country illegally, work under the table and underbid tax-paying Americans for work. Yeah, let's give 'em a recommend.

I don't care what the church's stance is on keeping families together (they could have stayed together where they were) or for some reason bestowing sainthood on people who come here to work, illegal is illegal and if they can lie to get a recommend, then why can't we all?

[RipplecutBuddha]

Well, lie about one thing for your recommend, why not lie about everything else? Maybe you take some coffee in the morning or a few beers when you get home, or you come into a country illegally, work under the table and underbid tax-paying Americans for work. Yeah, let's give 'em a recommend.

I don't care what the church's stance is on keeping families together (they could have stayed together where they were) or for some reason bestowing sainthood on people who come here to work, illegal is illegal and if they can lie to get a recommend, then why can't we all?

Because the standards for entering the temple are not for the Church's protection, but for our protection.

Who is harmed if one enters a temple unworthily, the person or the church? Those that enter the temple unworthily will answer for it in time. The Church itself suffers no consequence.

As for your example, I hope the rhetorical nature of it alone is enough of an answer.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Well, lie about one thing for your recommend, why not lie about everything else? Maybe you take some coffee in the morning or a few beers when you get home, or you come into a country illegally, work under the table and underbid tax-paying Americans for work. Yeah, let's give 'em a recommend.

I don't care what the church's stance is on keeping families together (they could have stayed together where they were) or for some reason bestowing sainthood on people who come here to work, illegal is illegal and if they can lie to get a recommend, then why can't we all?

Because the standards for entering the temple are not for the Church's protection, but for our protection.

Who is harmed if one enters a temple unworthily, the person or the church? Those that enter the temple unworthily will answer for it in time. The Church itself suffers no consequence.

As for your example, I hope the rhetorical nature of it alone is enough of an answer.

It's just another example of us not judging unrighteously, and also the fact that the people in the church are not perfect. It's a fact of life we all must accept.

[Guest gopecon]

From my understanding, being here illegally is akin to a traffic violation. It is not a felony, and probably not even a misdemeanor. While we are encouraged to follow traffic laws, traffic tickets do not cause one to be unworthy of a temple recommend. I don't have a problem with someone who is here illegally answering that they are honest in their dealings. Under the table work (because they cannot get hired) and "underbidding" do not strike me as honesty issues, but as public policy problems that the government needs to address. I do think that when ID theft and fraudulent ID's are being used that you can make a pretty good case for the honest-in-your-dealings question being an issue. I think that those are felonies that can really hurt their victims.

[Just_A_Guy]

Well, lie about one thing for your recommend, why not lie about everything else?

Because it isn't just the bishop I'd be lying to.

[mnn727]

I just don't believe that its that hard to enter this country legally assuming you are an honest law abiding citizen in your previous country.

The Church may allow it, but should they? I don't believe they should as to me it is completely dishonest and that speaks to your character.

Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or

Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or

Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;

has committed a federal crime.

Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense.

Edited December 16, 2011 by mnn727

[Guest gopecon]

Do you really want to judge the character of someone whose life is so lacking in opportunity that they are willing to cross the desert, work for low wages, live in what are often deplorable conditions (by American standards), and send what little they are able to save back to their struggling family south of the border?

Please understand that I have no patience for the criminals that jump the border, and very little patience for those who come here just to suck off of our social services. I wish that they all would come here the proper way (if they did, we could probably allow for many more legal immigrants). That said, I can't fault the character of someone who is just trying to do hard work to provide a better life for their family. I think this is the point of the statements that the Church has made about this.

[Dravin]

Please understand that I have no patience for the criminals that jump the border, and very little patience for those who come here just to suck off of our social services. I wish that they all would come here the proper way (if they did, we could probably allow for many more legal immigrants). That said, I can't fault the character of someone who is just trying to do hard work to provide a better life for their family. I think this is the point of the statements that the Church has made about this.

My position is that despite my own inclinations on the subject it is not my position to judge the temple worthiness of another on this matter, particularly as it's contrary to Church instruction on the matter. Now I'm not saying it is easy not to let my thoughts go down that road, but ultimately the Lord through his authorized servants sets the standards for admission into his House and participation in his ordiances, not me.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Dravin

[annewandering]

If a person feels strongly about this then perhaps the solution is for them to be active in changing immigration laws so that illegal immigration isnt such a big problem.

[dahlia]

I can't fault the character of someone who is just trying to do hard work to provide a better life for their family.

I can. In areas with many illegals, they are a burden on health care and the schools. Across the country, many of them drive without licenses or insurance - and then run away if they get into an accident. If you engage in illegal and immoral behavior every day, just to stay in this country (and I'm not even talking about the big stuff like rape, murder, and gang activity), then I say again, how can you rightfully go to the temple? I don't know how you can even be baptized.

And if it will make folks feel better, I'll blame the employers as well. If you knowingly hire illegals, you should go to jail. You should have licenses revoked. If I were an LDS farmer or contractor and hired illegals, I don't see how I could be temple worthy.

[annewandering]

I can. In areas with many illegals, they are a burden on health care and the schools. Across the country, many of them drive without licenses or insurance - and then run away if they get into an accident. If you engage in illegal and immoral behavior every day, just to stay in this country (and I'm not even talking about the big stuff like rape, murder, and gang activity), then I say again, how can you rightfully go to the temple? I don't know how you can even be baptized.

And if it will make folks feel better, I'll blame the employers as well. If you knowingly hire illegals, you should go to jail. You should have licenses revoked. If I were an LDS farmer or contractor and hired illegals, I don't see how I could be temple worthy.

I think I would be very careful about thinking you know better than the Prophet in this. To not understand is one thing but to be flat out against is something else.

[Vort]

dahlia, I seldom find myself in disagreement with you, but this is one of those times. I think gopecon hit the nail squarely on the head. At least, he voiced my own thoughts.

[Spartan117]

I can. In areas with many illegals, they are a burden on health care and the schools.

Our health care and education systems have been ineffective and inadequate for some time now. Sick and uneducated people aren't the burden, the systems themselves are. Sick people deserve medical care and children are entitled to an education, regardless of the circumstances. These are the kind of people the Savior hung out with when He came here. Was it a "burden" for Him to heal the ones who were sick? Was it a "burden" for Him to teach people about His Gospel?

Across the country, many of them drive without licenses or insurance - and then run away if they get into an accident. If you engage in illegal and immoral behavior every day, just to stay in this country (and I'm not even talking about the big stuff like rape, murder, and gang activity), then I say again, how can you rightfully go to the temple? I don't know how you can even be baptized.

The stereotype that illegal immigrants are "engaging in illegal activity" either at the same rate or more so than US citizens is not a new one.

Center for Immigration Studies

"Researchers and observers, aware that widespread concern over crime committed by immigrants can boil over into hate crimes committed against them, rarely hesitate to note that the majority of immigrants are law-abiding. Often, they go further, adding that immigrants commit fewer crimes than the native-born. A 1997 paper jointly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and the Urban Institute typifies this view:

Few stereotypes of immigrants are as enduring, or have been proven so categorically false over literally decades of research, as the notion that immigrants are disproportionately likely to engage in criminal activity (If anything) immigrants are disproportionately unlikely to be criminal. "

Also, being an illegal immigrant in this country does not constitute "immoral" behavior by itself. As quoted before ...

undocumented status should not by itself prevent an otherwise worthy Church member from entering the temple

There would be no need for someone to lie about their citizenship to their Bishop during a baptismal interview or a temple recommend interview. No one should be assuming that's the standard in situations like this either. Also quoted before ...

Meanwhile, Church members should avoid making judgments about fellow members in their congregations.

And if it will make folks feel better, I'll blame the employers as well. If you knowingly hire illegals, you should go to jail. You should have licenses revoked. If I were an LDS farmer or contractor and hired illegals, I don't see how I could be temple worthy.

I agree with you on blaming the the employers, and thanked your post for it. Not sure about the whole "making folks feel better" comment, though. There is nothing immoral about wanting to work. As an employer, on the other hand, it is wholly immoral and unethical to hire someone who you know is not a US citizen so you can pay them less than minimum wage and avoid ALL the legal responsibilities an employer has to their employees.

Entering the country illegally is a misdemeanor, hiring an illegal immigrant to work for you is a federal felony. These crimes are clearly not equal. The employers don't get blamed "as well" to make anyone feel better, the illegal immigrants do. Felony > Misdemeanor.

I am also completely lost as to how you got to ... faulting "the character of someone who is just trying to do hard work to provide a better life for their family." You don't "fault" someone for having a strong work ethic and good personal traits. Their citizenship is irrelevant and doesn't void someones character.

[Just_A_Guy]

There is nothing immoral about wanting to work. As an employer, on the other hand, it is wholly immoral and unethical to hire someone who you know is not a US citizen so you can pay them less than minimum wage and avoid ALL the legal responsibilities an employer has to their employees.

It's all in the phrasing, Spartan. What is immoral about an employer wanting to take whatever steps he can to have his business bring in enough money to feed the employer and his family, provided that the employees understand and consent to the terms of their employment?

It's two sides of the same coin. Both sides are doing the best they can to take care of themselves and their family; and both sides are neglecting certain legal responsibilities.

Entering the country illegally is a misdemeanor, hiring an illegal immigrant to work for you is a federal felony. These crimes are clearly not equal. The employers don't get blamed "as well" to make anyone feel better, the illegal immigrants do. Felony > Misdemeanor.

Somehow, when we get to the final judgment, I don't think God's going to be holding a copy of the federal sentencing guidelines.

And while you've tried to paint the anti-immigration crowd as a bunch of paranoid rednecks who are always on the verge of violence, you haven't really addressed the point that merely being in the US is not the only crime that most of these people are committing. If you're illegal, you can't get a valid SSN. If you work without an SSN, you're committing a crime. If you work with a fake SSN, you're committing a crime. If you don't work, odds are you're on state assistance--and you've made some misrepresentations to get that assistance, so you've committed a crime.

Reducing immigration debate to textual analysis of 8 USC 1325 is not helpful; because it's such a gross over-simplification and seeks to eliminate so much else from the discussion.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[skippy740]

Illegal aliens and temple recommends | Ask Gramps