Racisim in Scripture

[Hala401]

Believe me I start this discussion with real fear and trembling but I thought it was best to breech this subject in a place where someone would know how to interpret the scriptures I will show.

To be clear, I am a White American of Northern European descent. Travel to Honduras, Kenya, Israel, Japan and Kenya has pretty much erased any feelings I have as to what race is the best. So, I just want to share these scriptures and for someone to tell me how we as modern members of the church should interpret them.

2 Nephi 5:21, 3 Nephi 2:14, Moses 7:22, Alma 3:6

[skippy740]

I don't have much time, but here's my best advice: read the footnotes.

This link should help greatly:

Lesson Outline For Teachers | BlacksInTheScriptures.com

Also, you will want to know the definition of the word "idiom":

idiom - definition of idiom by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

1. A speech form or an expression of a given language that is peculiar to itself grammatically or cannot be understood from the individual meanings of its elements, as in keep tabs on.

2. The specific grammatical, syntactic, and structural character of a given language.

3. Regional speech or dialect.

4a. A specialized vocabulary used by a group of people; jargon: legal idiom.

4b. A style or manner of expression peculiar to a given people: "Also important is the uneasiness I've always felt at cutting myself off from my idiom, the American habits of speech and jest and reaction, all of them entirely different from the local variety" (S.J. Perelman).

5. A style of artistic expression characteristic of a particular individual, school, period, or medium: the idiom of the French impressionists; the punk rock idiom.

Edited March 30, 2012 by skippy740

[Just_A_Guy]

The explanation I've often heard is that the darkening of the skin was a sign of the curse, but not the curse per se. IMHO, in the Lamanites' case, a "darkening" of the skin is quite explainable if the Lamanites were willing to intermarry with the racially diverse indigenous peoples of the Americas whereas the Nephites were unwilling to do so for cultural/religious reasons. Whatever the situation, less than a generation later the Nephites were already being warned against racism:

Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers. [Read the whole chapter for full context. Jacob is basically saying that if the Lamanites are disobedient, it's their parents' fault; but if the Nephites are disobedient, it's their own darned faults because they were taught the truth from the beginning.]

As for Moses 7:22, note that the footnote refers you to 2 Nephi 26:23:

For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

Whatever reasons the Lord may have had for any segregation against the lineages of Cain, Laman, or anyone else in the past, no longer apply to us. The scriptures you cite are, quite frankly, outdated; and remain in our canon primarily for the sake of textual integrity.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[estradling75]

Another thing to do is to take things in full context.

With just a few verses one might think that God is calling for racism or being racist... But then read the rest of the story... What happens to the Lamanites? What is their end result compared to the Nephites? A good number convert and become rock solidly righteous, surpassing at times the fairer skinned Nephites.

If anything I find the message in the Book of Mormon that while we might have to deal with condition handed to us by our parents (which would include skin color) that God holds us responsible only for what we do with what we are given.

[pam]

President Hinckley had said on numerous occasions that it mattered not the color of the skin. We are all equal sons and daughters in the sight of our Heavenly Father. I'll go with President Hinckley.

[Hala401]

Thank you. This is pretty much what I was assuming because we have several different races in our Ward, including Blacks.

I ran into a bitter, angry young woman on youtube and just wanted to respond to her, but now I am unable to find her post. I would now suggest that she could have studied harder in seminary. She's around 18 and says she is also an Athiest. Our kids have these problems and later come round. All I can do is pray for her.

She seems quite angry about being expected to have a whole bunch of children, as if it is the Mormon Mandate. Is there directive as to how many children women are supposed to have?

[pam]

This is what is said at lds.org:

Children are one of the greatest blessings in life, and their birth into loving and nurturing families is central to God’s purposes for humanity. When husband and wife are physically able, they have the privilege and responsibility to bring children into the world and to nurture them. The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife.

So the answer is no. There is no Mormon Mandate that states how many children you should have.

[Hala401]

Sounds like she has a bad case of youthful rebellion.

[Dravin]

She seems quite angry about being expected to have a whole bunch of children, as if it is the Mormon Mandate. Is there directive as to how many children women are supposed to have?

Church Handbook of Instruction 2:

Birth Control

It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear. The decision as to how many children to have and when to have them is extremely intimate and private and should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.

Link: Selected Church Policies 

[estradling75]

Pam and Dravin, have quoted the official position.

Unfortunately some members don't follow the official position very well. There can be a local culture and expectations amongst church members contrary to that position. Personally I think it might be a result of pride and looking for ways to feel superior to someone else... and that is never a pretty picture.

[skippy740]

This was just forwarded to me:

April 2012 Ensign "The Atonement" - page 47:

"The Savior has suffered not just for our iniquities but also for the inequality, the unfairness, the pain, the anguish, and the emotional distresses that so frequently beset us." - Elder David A. Bednar

[Hala401]

The Atonement is something that I have more reason than most to appreciate.

[bytebear]

Beware. Just because someone says they are LDS or were LDS does not make it so. Many times I have seen antagonists try to bolster their bigotry by claiming they once lived as we live. She sounds angry and hateful. That is not what the Gospel teaches.

[Hala401]

It's not that I feel my faith is in danger from dealing with her. I just want to confront her with the truth. After what Heavely Father has done for me in the last year, how could I lose faith? Still, I will listen to your council. :)

[dahlia]

Hala - I've responded to a few people on YouTube, but the mental level of many YouTube posters is around age 8. Unless they express a genuine question about the faith, I leave them alone. That is, I don't bother with the angry ones. They're going to need to work that out with someone other than me. I also don't have time to engage in a lot of negativity when I am trying to live in and enjoy my faith.

I've been a member for a bit over a year and just got my endowments this month. I don't need the negativity, when I have been so blessed and happy to be in the church. I guess the other issue is, although I am fairly well-read in the faith, I don't have the answers that someone more familiar with the BoM or the Bible might have, so I hesitate to actually engage in big arguments with people who can throw scripture at me.

[skippy740]

I ran into a bitter, angry young woman on youtube and just wanted to respond to her, but now I am unable to find her post. I would now suggest that she could have studied harder in seminary. She's around 18 and says she is also an Athiest. Our kids have these problems and later come round. All I can do is pray for her.

The internet is a strange place at times. I just left an online facebook group because of all the 'nit-pickiness' going on there. With the line of questioning, I seriously thought this particular sister was going to start down the path towards apostacy. It seemed that no one could answer her question... and she wanted EVERYONE to see what she sees and the way she sees it. She used an anti-LDS link to back up her views.

She later told me that she is very strong and immovable in her faith... that no one understands the spiritual experiences she's had. I asked her to be aware of pride... and she got all in a 'huff' about it.

I have had to finally tell myself that not everyone acts in real life the same way they do online. I'm pretty sure I would enjoy meeting this sister in person. But online? It's just too different... and not everyone is well versed in proper communication etiquette. (I try to be - and I try to type out my words so that my meaning and 'tone' is clear and understood.)

I try to be very congruent in my life. I don't want to try to have to create pretenses and create a different persona. I am who I am.

Different people are bitter and angry... and instead of venting it out in the 'real world', they do it online... for a permanent record and to get attention.

Don't worry. Hopefully the real caring world that she knows will reach out to her.

[bytebear]

The online topical guide is wonderful. I use it a lot when I am trying to remember a topical scripture. In particular, look under the various headings about "Man"

[skippy740]

[Tyler90AZ]

If anybody ever feels the need to throw down, Lds.org has a study by topic and Bible Dictionary. I have a leg up on any member of another faith because of the great resources The Church provides. Most of the time I don't even use those resources, just common sense. Some times I come across some challenging foes, but most of the time thy get their stuff verbatim off anti-mormon websites.

Bible Dictionary

Bible Dictionary

Study by Topic

Study by Topic

[Hala401]

Hala - I've responded to a few people on YouTube, but the mental level of many YouTube posters is around age 8. Unless they express a genuine question about the faith, I leave them alone. That is, I don't bother with the angry ones. They're going to need to work that out with someone other than me. I also don't have time to engage in a lot of negativity when I am trying to live in and enjoy my faith.

I've been a member for a bit over a year and just got my endowments this month. I don't need the negativity, when I have been so blessed and happy to be in the church. I guess the other issue is, although I am fairly well-read in the faith, I don't have the answers that someone more familiar with the BoM or the Bible might have, so I hesitate to actually engage in big arguments with people who can throw scripture at me.

You may have seen me write this in another blog, but I will repeat it for clarity. I was raised in a very poor, fruit migrant, uneducated family where none of us liked each other. We were like a barrel full of feral cats. So when I became an adult Heavely Father began to drag me, unwilling at first, down a path to understanding and learning to love others. Were it possible, I am sure I would have left claw marks on his arm. :) I was just too ignorant to know better.

So he took me to Honduras on a relief mission, I thought to help others, but it was I who needed to be educated. I came back with a deep love for Latino people who were perhaps the descendants of Nephi?

Later, I was called to go to Kenya, a prospect which frightened me terribly. And, as you might guess, came back with a deep love and respect for Black people. They were dignified, loving, and spoke English with an English accent.

And so it went on down through the years, seemingly every time I showed fear or prejudice about other people or situations, that is where Heavenly Father put me, if I was going to obey him.

Even my experience as Muslim taught me many good things. Modesty, reverence, respect for authority, obedience were but a few.

Prejudice is really from the devil. I learned some new ones in Islam, and have had to really seek the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to become centered on the way that Heavenly Father finds acceptable.

[Timpman]

The "curse" was definitely black skin and we need to stop trying to explain it another way. That just mocks people's intelligence. Regardless of what our modern prophets say, we can't cover up the past. We need to address it head on. It is what it is.

[mnn727]

. Is there directive as to how many children women are supposed to have?

no more than 40. just kidding.

No that decision is left to the couple and God. MY DW and I have none -- that was apparently Gods choice however, we would have liked a couple kids ourselves.

[Suzie]

Regardless of what our modern prophets say, we can't cover up the past. We need to address it head on. It is what it is.

What "past" are you exactly referring to?

[Hala401]

The "curse" was definitely black skin and we need to stop trying to explain it another way. That just mocks people's intelligence. Regardless of what our modern prophets say, we can't cover up the past. We need to address it head on. It is what it is.

There is no moral high ground for treating a person differently whether they are white, red, yellow, brown or black or yet another color all together. In fact, I have seen articles that state that White people are not the most intelligent, just the most predatory.

From the pen of a White woman.

[Vort]

In fact, I have seen articles that state that White people are not the most intelligent, just the most predatory.

Yes, and I have seen articles that assert that white people are the mortal offspring of Satan. I accept it as simply more hateful racism, exactly equivalent to anti-black racism of past generations but, in light of the later date and our more enlightened understanding of race, far less justifiable.