Youtube and my faith reduced to rubble

[DevtheWind]

So a few weeks ago I did a paper on why homosexual marriage is wrong, and ever since then, I have been looking for people to debate on the topic with, as I feel a strong sense of "spirit" whenever I do so. I eventually found myself on youtube, arguing with around 23 different people over 7 videos, and I was soon overwhelmed and depressed because not only was I not able to rebuke the arguments, but I was being bashed for being LDS and my faith began to take a huge nosedive. After about two weeks of bashing my faith and relationship with God had been reduced to rubble and I finally deleted my email account but I still am pretty much back to Sunbeam level. Does anyone have any advice for me? I've fallen back into my old sins again and I feel absolutely horrid and confused because I don't know what to do!

[Jamie123]

I'm not sure what you mean by "sunbeam level", but I think I know what you're talking about. I've been hooked on the youtube debates for a long time now, though for me it's so much not about gay marriage as about creation/evolution and atheism. My own position is one of theistic evolutionist (I'm a great admirer of Alistair McGrath) and I walk a middle line between the Ray Comforts on one side and the Thunderff00ts and Christopher Hitchenses on the other. But in many debates I find myself siding with the atheists about everything other than the existence of God - particularly when the "God" side is represented by a glib talker like Ray Comfort, whose (largely rhetoric) victories are praised to high heaven on Conservapedia. There's no doubting that all this has made God seem less real to me, but it's hard to say whether I'm falling under a delusion or coming out of one.

[FunkyTown]

If your faith can be shaken by a few YouTube debates, then there are a few things I should point out:

1) You probably weren't super strong to begin with.

2) You probably shouldn't be involved in YouTube debates.

God exists. He loves you.

They're wrong.

It's pretty much that simple.

[applepansy]

So a few weeks ago I did a paper on why homosexual marriage is wrong, and ever since then, I have been looking for people to debate on the topic with, as I feel a strong sense of "spirit" whenever I do so. I eventually found myself on youtube, arguing with around 23 different people over 7 videos, and I was soon overwhelmed and depressed because not only was I not able to rebuke the arguments, but I was being bashed for being LDS and my faith began to take a huge nosedive. After about two weeks of bashing my faith and relationship with God had been reduced to rubble and I finally deleted my email account but I still am pretty much back to Sunbeam level. Does anyone have any advice for me? I've fallen back into my old sins again and I feel absolutely horrid and confused because I don't know what to do!

The bolded is where you allowed Satan in.

Neal A. Maxwell said:

Just as personal goodness in mortality consists of accumulating service rather than a single act, so temptation is not a one-time thing either. The point of our personal vulnerability, as Satan cunningly observes them, will be exploited. Lucifer will quote scripture if it helps, or cite supposed opportunities for us to do good. He will offer chances for self-indulgence and even provide the preparatory self-pity --- whatever might induce rationalization on our part. (As I Am, P.76)

Arguing (Debating) with people who strongly believe differently doesn't help them and it doesn't help you. Satan will (and did) use the contention to undermine your faith.

The Church is true. You can regain your testimony. Heavenly Father loves you. Christ loves you. Repent, read your scriptures and increase your prayers. You might want to consider talking to your parents about your doubts. Avoid the debates and videos, and get yourself back on the right road.

Lastly... John Bytheway suggested "doubt your doubts" to a young girl who was doubting her faith. Its a good suggestion for everyone because Satan is the author of our doubts regarding faith in Christ.

[rameumptom]

1. Do not contend, for contention is the doctrine of Satan (3 Ne 11). You cannot be filled with the true Spirit of God, if you are filled with contention.

2. Pick your battles. Some are not winnable on a logical level. Also, if you are not perfectly speaking the Lord's words, you may be as wrong about it as those promoting homosexuality or other sin or belief.

3. It is more important to testify of Christ and his atonement, than to pick fights over homosexuality or any other issue. If you lead people to Christ, then you are leading them to the Spirit, which will teach them the truths of all other things in their own time and place. If you seek to fight, then you only introduce contention, and they cannot hear the Spirit over your fighting words.

Edited April 16, 2012 by rameumptom

[JudoMinja]

Arguments do not foster faith are are not really constructive to either party. That you sought out debates shows that you were approaching this with the wrong attitude, and that this- more than anything else- is why your faith faltered. Think about the "war chapters" of the Book of Mormon. These physical wars are described for our benefit and can be compared to the spiritual war we are waging with the adversary. When the Nephites sought to defend themselves, their lands, their homes, their families, and their freedoms- they were blessed with the strength of the Lord who helped them. But when they attempted to take the battle to the Lamanites, to turn on the offensive, or in other words sought out battle- they no longer had the blessing and help of the Lord.

Should you come across something, as you seek to share your faith and build up the kingdom of God, where you feel an inspired and important opportunity to defend your faith, then do so. But to seek it out is to go on the offensive, and this fosters a spirit of contention which is not of the Lord. Think also of Alma and Amulek as they spoke with the lawyer Zeezrom. Zeezrom sought to lock them in a debate of words so that he could twist what they said and manipulate their answers in order to tear them down and tear down their missionary efforts. No matter what you say, if you find yourself in such a debate, you cannot win. You are engaging in a discussion with someone who is not interested in learning but in proving you wrong. You must rely on the inspiration of the spirit to avoid such debates and instead of getting caught in their midst either sharing your testimony or saying nothing at all- as the spirit directs.

Should you be earnest in your efforts to spread the gospel, you will come across many people like Zeezrom and many situations where you may be tempted to go on the offensive. If you are not prepared, have not become familiar with the Word and the whisperings of the spirit, you will be pulled in and led astray. If you want to overcome the doubts and uncertainties that these people and situations can cause to form in your mind, it is important to take a step back and immerse yourself in scriptures, the counsel of the prophets, and prayer. Take the seeds you've planted and nourished in your heart and examine the fruit they've borne. If it is good fruit, you know it is right. And if it is bad fruit, you need to cast it out and stop watering it.

[Connie]

My advice would be to:

1. Avoid contention.

2. Study the scriptures every day.

3. Pray at least twice a day.

4. Attend Sunday worship services.

5. Rewatch General Conference.

6. Utilize the Atonement of Christ through repentance.

I wish you the best. Now i'm off to follow my own advice. :)

[prisonchaplain]

It is so easy to forget what has been paid for our faith in Christ. The blood and imprisonment of so many prophets and kings leading up to Christ. Of course, there were countless who died in the service of these great ones. Then, of course, the hard life and miserable death of our Saviour. Most of the apostles executed, with one exiled on a prison island. Countless martyrs throughout the centuries. Today Pastor Youcef has spent nearly 1000 days in a prison in Iran for the crime of apostasy, because he allegedly converted from Islam to Christianity. Additionally, we know of brave souls who escaped North Korea, came to a saving knowledge of our Lord, and now plan to return secretly, knowing that they face certain death.

Don't let the Youtube naysayers, nor those who may vehemently protest their right to justify their sin keep you from rich faith that has come to us at such a high price.

[Klein_Helmer]

So a few weeks ago I did a paper on why homosexual marriage is wrong, and ever since then, I have been looking for people to debate on the topic with, as I feel a strong sense of "spirit" whenever I do so. I eventually found myself on youtube, arguing with around 23 different people over 7 videos, and I was soon overwhelmed and depressed because not only was I not able to rebuke the arguments, but I was being bashed for being LDS and my faith began to take a huge nosedive. After about two weeks of bashing my faith and relationship with God had been reduced to rubble and I finally deleted my email account but I still am pretty much back to Sunbeam level. Does anyone have any advice for me? I've fallen back into my old sins again and I feel absolutely horrid and confused because I don't know what to do!

You have taken a difficult position, and if you run into anyone with so much as a modest education, and anything resembling linguistic competence, you are going to get your doors blown.

As others have mentioned, if being on what I can only imagine was the losing side of a number of online debates has reduced your faith to, "rubble", and left you, "falling back into sin", you should probably seek out other outlets for the expression of your beliefs.

...

If however you should like to continue down the aforementioned path, I'll be your Huckleberry.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Klein_Helmer

[Backroads]

Is your faith in God and the gospel or in the Church policy regarding homosexual marriage?

[FunkyTown]

You have taken a difficult position, and if you run into anyone with so much as a modest education, and anything resembling linguistic competence, you are going to get your doors blown.

I disagree with this. I feel that there are answers to any critic's questions. That said, the OP is claiming to be a 14 year old boy. It's unlikely that a 14 year old boy could win a debate against the endless hordes of people - Both educated and un - Shouting them down on the Internet.

The Internet is rife with the educated and the uneducated, those using logical fallacies, those who understand logic and those who can't spell fallacies. If you take a contrary position on the internet, be prepared to be shouted down.

The internet is a wondrous place, filled with knowledge. However, if you want a spirited debate you're far more likely to get one by joining the debate club at school. On the internet, mob rule is the norm. Prepare to face summary mob justice if you disagree with the majority in any way for the area of the net you've staked out to say your piece.

[Klein_Helmer]

I disagree with this. I feel that there are answers to any critic's questions. That said, the OP is claiming to be a 14 year old boy. It's unlikely that a 14 year old boy could win a debate against the endless hordes of people - Both educated and un - Shouting them down on the Internet.

The Internet is rife with the educated and the uneducated, those using logical fallacies, those who understand logic and those who can't spell fallacies. If you take a contrary position on the internet, be prepared to be shouted down.

The internet is a wondrous place, filled with knowledge. However, if you want a spirited debate you're far more likely to get one by joining the debate club at school. On the internet, mob rule is the norm. Prepare to face summary mob justice if you disagree with the majority in any way for the area of the net you've staked out to say your piece.

If the answer to which you are referring is, "Because God (specifically the god described by the church of latter day saints) said so, you are correct.

Beyond that, not so much.

Certainly it is the right of anyone to believe in the supernatural, and any behavioral mandates thereof; but it is unreasonable for any such a one to expect those outside of their specific belief system to grant any credibility to (or entertain in a debate) truisms based on faith alone.

When two people disagree with respect to any given issue, differing spiritual belief systems derived from faith must be left out of the discourse, or there is simply not enough common ground to prevent an impasse.

My point is this: if the lad desires to debate what he deems to be the inherently problematic nature of homosexuality, he has two options:

He can either say homosexuality is wrong, because he has derived this notion from faith in the social standards which he believes to have been outlined by a specific supernatural entity, and the conversation is over; or he can attempt to conduct the conversation on any other grounds, and get crushed again.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Klein_Helmer

[Vort]

So a few weeks ago I did a paper on why homosexual marriage is wrong, and ever since then, I have been looking for people to debate on the topic with, as I feel a strong sense of "spirit" whenever I do so. I eventually found myself on youtube, arguing with around 23 different people over 7 videos, and I was soon overwhelmed and depressed because not only was I not able to rebuke the arguments, but I was being bashed for being LDS and my faith began to take a huge nosedive. After about two weeks of bashing my faith and relationship with God had been reduced to rubble and I finally deleted my email account but I still am pretty much back to Sunbeam level. Does anyone have any advice for me? I've fallen back into my old sins again and I feel absolutely horrid and confused because I don't know what to do!

Brother, my advice to you is this: Don't go looking for trouble. Don't pick fights. Even if you're right, you are unlikely to disprove dozens or hundreds of others, many of whom are better-educated than you and can argue much better than you can.

It's a common (but false) belief that, as long as you're right, you can win any argument. Truth always carries the day. This simply is not so. People who win fights are those skilled at fighting, not necessarily those whose cause is just.

Consider how the missionaries teach. They do not bash or contend (or at least they shouldn't). They simply bear testimony and teach those who wish to hear. In this way, the truth always wins; those who want to know the truth will accept it, and everyone else will ignore it.

[Vort]

He can either say homosexuality is wrong, because he has derived this notion from faith in the social standards which he believes to have been outlined by a specific supernatural entity, and the conversation is over; or he can attempt to conduct the conversation on any other grounds, and get crushed again.

Needless to say, you will find few here who agree with your assessment. I certainly do not. I think homosexuality can be argued as wrong from purely naturalistic principles. I do not do so because I think that misses the whole point; nevertheless, your claim that any grounds other than religious belief always results in failure to argue against homosexuality is simply false. That you may not find such arguments convincing does not disprove them.

[Klein_Helmer]

Needless to say, you will find few here who agree with your assessment. I certainly do not. I think homosexuality can be argued as wrong from purely naturalistic principles. I do not do so because I think that misses the whole point; nevertheless, your claim that any grounds other than religious belief always results in failure to argue against homosexuality is simply false. That you may not find such arguments convincing does not disprove them.

A worthy challenger emerges.

Vort, I beseech you, break from tradition and put up your dukes.

[Klein_Helmer]

You strike me as a reasonable, measured, well spoken individual, and I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the matter from a (as you name it) "naturalistic" point of view.

[Vort]

A worthy challenger emerges.

Vort, I beseech you, break from tradition and put up your dukes.

You know, you are a very funny guy. I (almost) always enjoy your posts.

I might be convinced to engage in such a discussion. I don't consider myself particularly well-qualified, but it might be interesting. I am not in a position to do so now, however.

In the meantime, feel free to explain why you consider homosexual "marriage" to be a reasonable and defensible institution to establish. I would be interested to hear your reasoning.

[Klein_Helmer]

You know, you are a very funny guy. I (almost) always enjoy your posts.

I might be convinced to engage in such a discussion. I don't consider myself particularly well-qualified, but it might be interesting. I am not in a position to do so now, however.

In the meantime, feel free to explain why you consider homosexual "marriage" to be a reasonable and defensible institution to establish. I would be interested to hear your reasoning.

Fair enough, I am in a similar situation at the moment with regard to my availability for an involved discussion.

To get the ball rolling, my position, in a nutshell, is this:

Modern western marriage is an institution comprised of mutual love, and legal/social obligations. Assuming we are viewing the issue through a lens which does not involve the disapproval of a god or gods, I believe that two individuals of the same sex are no less capable, and no less likely to love one another, and fulfill their marital obligations than are couples consisting of a male and a female.

Beyond that, I do not believe that human beings are inherently distinct from other mammalian species with regard to their biological sexuality. Seeing as homosexuality occurs in other species of mammals, whether it be consensual, or an act of domination, it only follows that these behaviors would also be present in human beings.

I see these behaviors as natural, and believe that if anyone wishes to make the claim that such behaviors are inherently problematic or wrong, the burden of proof lies with them.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Klein_Helmer

[DevtheWind]

Faith in God and the Gospel. And don't get me wrong, I was not weak, and I knew mostly what I was getting into. I was "winning" a few of the arguments and that is what led me to go even further with the 7 youtube videos. I just got completely overwhelmed when I constantly had to correct my opponents and more and more people started bashing me. Plus it wasn't good for my schooling and I got depressed. So.. yeah, it was just my faith in God, not about Church policy, I am still 110% against homosexual marriage and would gladly debate someone on the matter face to face

[Hala401]

So a few weeks ago I did a paper on why homosexual marriage is wrong, and ever since then, I have been looking for people to debate on the topic with, as I feel a strong sense of "spirit" whenever I do so. I eventually found myself on youtube, arguing with around 23 different people over 7 videos, and I was soon overwhelmed and depressed because not only was I not able to rebuke the arguments, but I was being bashed for being LDS and my faith began to take a huge nosedive. After about two weeks of bashing my faith and relationship with God had been reduced to rubble and I finally deleted my email account but I still am pretty much back to Sunbeam level. Does anyone have any advice for me? I've fallen back into my old sins again and I feel absolutely horrid and confused because I don't know what to do!

We may feel that homosexuality is wrong but that does not free us from the duty that Jesus Christ placed before us, IE Love each other as we love ourselves. We may not understand a thing but we must have compassion for others. Remember Hansens disease used to be a death sentence and was thought to have been caused by sin. Now days we know it is a treatable bacteria.

Have you seen the video on youtube called, "It Gets Better" ? GBLT folk feel damned when they first begin to grapple with their feelings. We know that negative reinforcement for Gay conduct does not work, and that the Ex-gay club is a farce.

I do not condone the problem; only that I am not Heavenly Father and must give mercy; trying to give as much as I have been given.

[Klein_Helmer]

We may feel that homosexuality is wrong but that does not free us from the duty that Jesus Christ placed before us, IE Love each other as we love ourselves. We may not understand a thing but we must have compassion for others. Remember Hansens disease used to be a death sentence and was thought to have been caused by sin. Now days we know it is a treatable bacteria.

Have you seen the video on youtube called, "It Gets Better" ? GBLT folk feel damned when they first begin to grapple with their feelings. We know that negative reinforcement for Gay conduct does not work, and that the Ex-gay club is a farce.

I do not condone the problem; only that I am not Heavenly Father and must give mercy; trying to give as much as I have been given.

Good post.

[bytor2112]

Your 14...focus on being a teacher and learning the doctrine of the Priesthood. The Lord wants us to lead people to Christ not drive them away with righteous indignation. While I am personally opposed to homosexual marriage, I am more than willing to let the Lord be the judge with regard to others....I have WAY too many faults of my own that I need to to change.

[Timpman]

Yes, the brethren have said we should utilize social media to spread the Gospel. Tweet your testimony, post positive things on Facebook and on a blog perhaps, but Youtube debates are a waste of time.

Anyway, it really is hard to make a good argument against same sex marriage in light of this being America, the land of the free. I see it like this: I am not taking away anyone's freedoms or rights. They can live how they choose. It is the activists who are trying to FORCE everyone else to recognize and even condone unholy unions. If someone can't visit someone else in the hospital, then rules and laws about hospital visits can be revised. ANYONE should be able to have power of attorney to make important decisions about hospital care. Inheritance laws can change as well. The activists will say marriage laws must change, but that is rubbish.

[FunkyTown]

If the answer to which you are referring is, "Because God (specifically the god described by the church of latter day saints) said so, you are correct.

Beyond that, not so much.

Certainly it is the right of anyone to believe in the supernatural, and any behavioral mandates thereof; but it is unreasonable for any such a one to expect those outside of their specific belief system to grant any credibility to (or entertain in a debate) truisms based on faith alone.

When two people disagree with respect to any given issue, differing spiritual belief systems derived from faith must be left out of the discourse, or there is simply not enough common ground to prevent an impasse.

My point is this: if the lad desires to debate what he deems to be the inherently problematic nature of homosexuality, he has two options:

He can either say homosexuality is wrong, because he has derived this notion from faith in the social standards which he believes to have been outlined by a specific supernatural entity, and the conversation is over; or he can attempt to conduct the conversation on any other grounds, and get crushed again.

Dear Klein,

No.

Also, this is not about you. This is about someone claiming to be a fourteen year old getting shouted down on YouTube. If you want to start a debate thread, start a debate thread.

[Klein_Helmer]

Dear Klein,

No.

Also, this is not about you. This is about someone claiming to be a fourteen year old getting shouted down on YouTube. If you want to start a debate thread, start a debate thread.

Do not address me with imperatives.

I was responding to the young man's thread in a manner both courteous and germane. I endeavored to explain to him the reasons for his perceived misfortune, and how he might avoid such things in the future.

If you seek to dispute that which I have said, you will need to do better than a coarse and impolite, "No."