Mormons walking in Gay pride parade in SLC

[Windseeker]

I've read thru this thread and honestly find it sad that anyone who calls themselves a latter day saint would find it necessary to attend this type of event in order to "Love the Sinner".

The Homosexual movement has been very successful at pressuring moral people to define deviancy down. Like a petulant child they have made people believe that short of fully accepting their sexual practices as normal and celebrating their lifestyle you cannot possibly say you accept them and definitely you can't say you "Love" them. If you don't feel that SSA is good and praiseworthy then you are considered a hater and labeled a homophobe. They have been very effective at drowning out opposition by controlling and defining the argument.

They are not looking for tolerance or acceptance and could care less about "Love" as in Charity or the "Pure Love of Christ". What they demand is obvious, Gay Pride.

This is what Ezra Taft Benson had to say about Pride.

The central feature of pride is enmity—enmity toward God and enmity toward our fellowmen. Enmity means “hatred toward, hostility to, or a state of opposition.” It is the power by which Satan wishes to reign over us.

Pride is essentially competitive in nature. We pit our will against God’s. When we direct our pride toward God, it is in the spirit of “my will and not thine be done.” As Paul said, they “seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s.” (Philip. 2:21.)

Our will in competition to God’s will allows desires, appetites, and passions to go unbridled. (See Alma 38:12; 3 Ne. 12:30.)

The proud cannot accept the authority of God giving direction to their lives.

Our enmity toward God takes on many labels, such as rebellion, hard-heartedness, stiff-neckedness, unrepentant, puffed up, easily offended, and sign seekers. The proud wish God would agree with them. They aren’t interested in changing their opinions to agree with God’s.

The scriptures abound with evidences of the severe consequences of the sin of pride to individuals, groups, cities, and nations. “Pride goeth before destruction.” (Prov. 16:18.) It destroyed the Nephite nation and the city of Sodom.

Fear of men’s judgment manifests itself in competition for men’s approval. The proud love “the praise of men more than the praise of God.” (John 12:42–43.) Our motives for the things we do are where the sin is manifest. Jesus said He did “always those things” that pleased God. (John 8:29.) Would we not do well to have the pleasing of God as our motive rather than to try to elevate ourselves above our brother and outdo another?

When pride has a hold on our hearts, we lose our independence of the world and deliver our freedoms to the bondage of men’s judgment. The world shouts louder than the whisperings of the Holy Ghost. The reasoning of men overrides the revelations of God, and the proud let go of the iron rod.

The proud depend upon the world to tell them whether they have value or not.

Pride is the great stumbling block to Zion. I repeat: Pride is the great stumbling block to Zion.

We must cleanse the inner vessel by conquering pride. (See Alma 6:2–4; Matt. 23:25–26.)

We must yield “to the enticings of the Holy Spirit,” put off the prideful “natural man,” become “a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord,” and become “as a child, submissive, meek, humble.”

If my son were gay, I would love him unconditionally as we should, as we've been commanded.. Whether or not he accepts my love is up to him. I wouldn't feel it true to that love nor necessary to celebrate his lifestyle. How can we say that God truly loves us when he does not accept or celebrate our sins?

Being a latter day saint to me means to stand by my morals and values despite not being accepted, despite being ridiculed and labeled a hater. I don't acquiesce to these tactics from my children and I don't capitulate when they are used by political/social movements.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Windseeker

[pooter1]

Windseeker I feel the same way.I have a son who is a drug user and drinks.He knows I love him.He also knows I will never ever support what he does.I will always choose what is right over my son. He KNOWS I will never bail him out of jail.He KNOWS I would be the last person to walk in a parade with him to support whatever sin he committing. I choose God over my son as much as I love him I knew I had to make this decision when he went astray.

[Soulsearcher]

Except that it was a parade dedicated SPECIFICALLY to honoring people who engage in certain perverse sex acts.

It's a parade to honor people exactly as you said. It's about the people, who happen to be attracted to the same sex, oddly more straights put a focus on the sex gays have than the gays themselves. Also there's quite a few of us who aren't having sex who are being honored as well. You can have a gathering of people who share an attraction with out it being sexual, i mean how many events are mainly straight and you complain it's all sexual?

[beefche]

Here's what wikipedia says on Gay Pride parades:

Pride parades for the LGBT community (also known as gay pride parades, pride events and pride festivals) are events celebrating lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) culture. The events also at times serve as demonstrations for legal rights such as same-sex marriage.

[Dravin]

Soul, are you saying that the message of such a parade, a pride parade, is not in part, "Homosexual relations are morally acceptable."?

Edited June 7, 2012 by Dravin

[Soulsearcher]

Soul, are you saying that the message of such a parade is not in part, "Homosexual relations are morally acceptable."?

Not at all that is of course part of it, but not the focus. To those involved it's as moral as the values others hold. The fact some don't agree is fine, but again, either accept a difference between people or support the people who throw stones at your glass house with open arms. No body has to go to the parade I'm not supporting people being forced, but i do have issues with people telling the people who go what they mean by their attendance, they know better than someone else why they are there.

[Dravin]

Not at all that is of course part of it, but not the focus.

And that's the part people are objecting to, like I said earlier, if it was a "Stop Violence Against Gays Parade" there wouldn't be an issue in my mind. It's that it is a 'pride' parade and the connotations of moral acceptability of behavior that cause the problem.

To those involved it's as moral as the values others hold.

Except no LDS should agree that homosexual relations are as valid as the other morals they hold. Which is the hang-up with those involved (in the thread).

The fact some don't agree is fine, but again, either accept a difference between people or support the people who throw stones at your glass house with open arms.

I'm not sure how to parse this in context. Not accepting there are differences between people would mean I don't believe homosexuals exist (or women for that matter). I suspect you mean accept in the sense that has shades of approval. As far as the stone throwing, I'm unsure who has the glass house and who has the stones you are talking about there.

No body has to go to the parade I'm not supporting people being forced

I don't think you are for what it's worth.

, but i do have issues with people telling the people who go what they mean by their attendance, they know better than someone else why they are there.

I agree that we can't really speak to the motives of those involved, not in any sense beyond hypothetical. I may be misreading the thread as of yet, but at least for my part, disagreement is primarily over what the actions communicate not so much the motives. For instance with Pam's motive for going if she'd been able, I accept that such is her motive, it's a pure motive. But much like giving the A-OK sign in Brazil, one can have a pure motive and end up communicating something one doesn't intend.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Dravin

[pam]

But I'm willing to take, for instance, Pam's explanation of why she decided to go

Actually I didn't go.

[Dravin]

Sorry, let me correct that, "Why she would would have gone."

[Backroads]

T

To not attend just because it is parade about taking pride in their lifestyle is not a good argument. They will hold the parade and live their lifestyle regardless. If not attending the parade would cause them to stop living that lifestyle; then it would be undermining the church. Since it does not stop them, we should have tolerance(love) towards our neighbors.

Yes it is a good argument. I have the right to not attend the parade and I have the right not to support their-or anyone else's--lifestyle.

You just said that I am undermining the Church by not attending a gay pride parade. Wow. I guess I better find a way to schedule in every celebration of diversity whether I agree with it or not and heaven help me if I accidentally miss one because I'll be kissing my church membership goodbye.

[applepansy]

The feeling I have after reading though the entire thread is sadness.

I understand the feelings on both sides of this. I cannot support a "pride in sin" parade. There are other ways to show our love and to open a dialogue. People on both sides of the issue will choose to seek understanding or not. Unfortunately, most do not.

Parades are a very "in your face" event. Anyone agreeing or disagreeing who lives in a community where a parade of any sort is occurring can't avoid it. If you leave your house to go to the grocery store there might be roads closed off for the parade. If you don't leave your house you'll hear about it on the news or from neighbors/friends. Even leaving town doesn't help, because when you get home somebody will have something to say about the Parade. It doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with the reason for a parade it will be part of your consciousness at some time and in some way.

I think this is the reason for Gay Pride parades. The more exposure the more acceptance? Sadly all it does is polarize both sides and make the rest sad.

[Saldrin]

I've read thru this thread and honestly find it sad that anyone who calls themselves a latter day saint would find it necessary to attend this type of event in order to "Love the Sinner".

The Homosexual movement has been very successful at pressuring moral people to define deviancy down. Like a petulant child they have made people believe that short of fully accepting their sexual practices as normal and celebrating their lifestyle you cannot possibly say you accept them and definitely you can't say you "Love" them. If you don't feel that SSA is good and praiseworthy then you are considered a hater and labeled a homophobe. They have been very effective at drowning out opposition by controlling and defining the argument.

They are not looking for tolerance or acceptance and could care less about "Love" as in Charity or the "Pure Love of Christ". What they demand is obvious, Gay Pride.

This is what Ezra Taft Benson had to say about Pride.

If my son were gay, I would love him unconditionally as we should, as we've been commanded.. Whether or not he accepts my love is up to him. I wouldn't feel it true to that love nor necessary to celebrate his lifestyle. How can we say that God truly loves us when he does not accept or celebrate our sins?

Being a latter day saint to me means to stand by my morals and values despite not being accepted, despite being ridiculed and labeled a hater. I don't acquiesce to these tactics from my children and I don't capitulate when they are used by political/social movements.

Right on.

[JesusParadox]

What SoulSearcher said should clarify my point for readers of this tread.

If you heard half of the stuff i hear about LDS from the community i think you'd be disheartened, but for the most part it's because of a lack of out reach. Yes there are press releases but even knowing they are there i have to tend to dig to find them. Something like this made a huge impact to the people who were both in and at the parade and softened some hearts. I'd rather have to stop correcting people and start agreeing because they actually know what you guys are teaching .

The members marching in the utah pride parade seemed to be more focused on getting the truth of the church's stance out vs what many gays have learned or been taught about the LDS in the past and by the wrong people. That's the message i took from it and i do think that was their intent, though i also agree both sides could use this in ways other than intended.

The Latter-day Saints were not going because they agree with their actions. As SoulSearcher stated, "they were going for outreach." In the process, it softened hearts and showed that our church is tolerant. It does not matter that it is a gay pride parade, outreach is outreach. You can not say all the Latter-day Saints went for that reason. It comes down to the intent they had. We should be joyful, from reading Souls posts, it sounds like they had good intent.

Respectfully, I have to disagree with the whole pride issue and touting the evils of pride. We need to be honest, a gay pride parade is not much different then a pioneer parade. As far as, showing pride for a group of people. The fact that they are showing pride in a sinful activity does not matter to the Latter-day Saints who went. They did not go for that reason. How many times do we go to a gas station that sells alcohol?

I want to be clear, I am not saying you are a bad Latter-day Saint if you did not go.

[Dravin]

Respectfully, I have to disagree with the whole pride issue and touting the evils of pride. We need to be honest, a gay pride parade is not much different then a pioneer parade.

And if deciding to cross the plains, or rather crossing the plains to tighten up the paralleled, was a moral turpitude I'd object to participating in those too.

Edit: Just to make it perfectly clear I do understand you see things differently.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Dravin

[annewandering]

And if deciding to cross the plains was a moral turpitude I'd object to participating in those too.

oh we crossed the plains due to 'moral turpitude' alright. Of the mobs.

[JesusParadox]

And if deciding to cross the plains, or rather crossing the plains to tighten up the paralleled, was a moral turpitude I'd object to participating in those too.

If you read Windseekers post she basically said it is bad to have pride. That is what prompted me to give an example of how we also have pride. I even went so far as to put, "As far as, showing pride for a group of people." I was hoping it would show I was only talking about having pride.

[annewandering]

What SoulSearcher said should clarify my point for readers of this tread.

The Latter-day Saints were not going because they agree with their actions. As SoulSearcher stated, "they were going for outreach." In the process, it softened hearts and showed that our church is tolerant. It does not matter that it is a gay pride parade, outreach is outreach. You can not say all the Latter-day Saints went for that reason. It comes down to the intent they had. We should be joyful, from reading Souls posts, it sounds like they had good intent.

Respectfully, I have to disagree with the whole pride issue and touting the evils of pride. We need to be honest, a gay pride parade is not much different then a pioneer parade. As far as, showing pride for a group of people. The fact that they are showing pride in a sinful activity does not matter to the Latter-day Saints who went. They did not go for that reason. How many times do we go to a gas station that sells alcohol?

I want to be clear, I am not saying you are a bad Latter-day Saint if you did not go.

Oh horse pucky. Pioneer parades honor our early pioneers who crossed the plains under duresss of the mobs and for all who died getting here. If there is pride it is in how they endured and laid the groundwork for many generations down to this day.

Gay pride is about being proud of being gay, hence why it is called 'gay pride'. ^^ Not even near the same thing.

[Dravin]

If you read Windseekers post she basically said it is bad to have pride. That is what prompted me to give an example of how we also have pride. I even went so far as to put, "As far as, showing pride for a group of people." I was hoping it would show I was only talking about having pride.

Okay, I can agree that a word association with pride is a sin, ergo gay pride parade is a sin because of word "pride" isn't particularly convincing. If the parade is prideful, in the sinful sense, it's bad regardless of what words one might want to use to market the parade under, and visa versa.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Dravin

[NadiaStar]

pam, I will refrain from calling you hypocritical as you seem to be clear with your son on what you will and will not tolerate.

But I do not understand those who say they will support their loved ones no matter what when clearly that is not the case.

[Windseeker]

If you read Windseekers post she basically said it is bad to have pride. That is what prompted me to give an example of how we also have pride. I even went so far as to put, "As far as, showing pride for a group of people." I was hoping it would show I was only talking about having pride.

Obviously you are a master of justification. I don't think I will convience you. But for what it's worth I do think there is a difference between celebrating the sacrifice and achievements of our forebears compared to celebrating same sex sexual relations.

Read this again and pay attention to the highlighted sections and ask yourself do you think the pride Ezra Taft Benson is talking about is just as prevelent at Pioneer day as it is at a Gay Pride parade?

The central feature of pride is enmity—enmity toward God and enmity toward our fellowmen. Enmity means “hatred toward, hostility to, or a state of opposition.” It is the power by which Satan wishes to reign over us.

Pride is essentially competitive in nature. We pit our will against God’s. When we direct our pride toward God, it is in the spirit of “my will and not thine be done.” As Paul said, they “seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s.” (Philip. 2:21.)

Our will in competition to God’s will allows desires, appetites, and passions to go unbridled. (See Alma 38:12; 3 Ne. 12:30.)

The proud cannot accept the authority of God giving direction to their lives.

Our enmity toward God takes on many labels, such as rebellion, hard-heartedness, stiff-neckedness, unrepentant, puffed up, easily offended, and sign seekers. The proud wish God would agree with them. They aren’t interested in changing their opinions to agree with God’s.

The scriptures abound with evidences of the severe consequences of the sin of pride to individuals, groups, cities, and nations.“Pride goeth before destruction.” (Prov. 16:18.) It destroyed the Nephite nation and the city of Sodom.

Fear of men’s judgment manifests itself in competition for men’s approval. The proud love “the praise of men more than the praise of God.” (John 12:42–43.) Our motives for the things we do are where the sin is manifest. Jesus said He did “always those things” that pleased God. (John 8:29.) Would we not do well to have the pleasing of God as our motive rather than to try to elevate ourselves above our brother and outdo another?

When pride has a hold on our hearts, we lose our independence of the world and deliver our freedoms to the bondage of men’s judgment. The world shouts louder than the whisperings of the Holy Ghost. The reasoning of men overrides the revelations of God, and the proud let go of the iron rod.

The proud depend upon the world to tell them whether they have value or not.

Pride is the great stumbling block to Zion. I repeat: Pride is the great stumbling block to Zion.

We must cleanse the inner vessel by conquering pride. (See Alma 6:2–4; Matt. 23:25–26.)

We must yield “to the enticings of the Holy Spirit,” put off the prideful “natural man,” become “a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord,” and become “as a child, submissive, meek, humble.”

We have been commanded to stand in Holy Places and to avoid the very appearance of evil. There are many who attend the Gay Pride parade for a miriade of reasons. In the end you are a body and your presence is an endorsement and will be interpreted by those who attempt to define and manipulate our culture anyway they want to use it. Your only choice is to go or not, not how it will be defined and used to move the culture.

The world is only going to get more wicked, you need to decide where you will stand because eventually the line in the sand will be drawn and the wheat seperated from the chaff.

[NadiaStar]

If I say to a loved one "I love and appreciate and care for you but do not agree with some of your life choices just as you probably disagree with some of mine" and he was to say "If you love me, you would participate in this list of things with which I know you do not agree", he is clearly not accepting the love I am capable of offering.

[MorningStar]

I love my family despite their weaknesses, but I wouldn't attend a parade for any of their issues or mine. I can't imagine a parade for shacking up, people who commit adultery, self-mutilation, overeating, having a child out of wedlock, etc. I'm not going to celebrate anything that causes harm to my loved ones and others. I wouldn't want anyone to celebrate my faults.

[JesusParadox]

So... Basically your arguments hinge on a lesser commandment superseding a higher commandment(love thy neighbor).

[Shawn_]

The perception is that those marching in such parades fully support the behavior. I think it's unwise and love can be shown in other ways.

[beefche]

No, I think the basic argument is that showing love to a neighbor can encompass more than attending a parade to celebrate a lifestyle that is against God's commands.