Does the King James Bible support the ongoing need for Prophets and Apostles?

[jcob]

Mathew 21:33-37 "he sent his servants" "But last of all he sent unto them his son"

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached"

Acts 2:18 "And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy"

Ephesians 2:20 "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone"

Ephesians 4:11- "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets" "Till we all come in the unity of the faith" (See Galatians 3:28)

Hebrews 1:1-2 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son"

[pam]

What do YOU think it means?

[FunkyTown]

Yes, Pam raises a good point. What do you believe it's saying there?

[estradling75]

I guess it would depend on what you mean by ongoing...

If you mean that it is possible that at some future point collected Body of Christ(aka all the believers) will get its act together and no longer need Prophets and Apostles then yeah, sure I can believe that.

If you are trying to make the case that it already happened... Well then I have to look at Ephesians 4:11 and say... I am not seeing the unity of the faith that I think is required for them to be done away with.

[NeuroTypical]

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached"

FYI: "The Law" and "The Prophets" are two sets of books that make up the TaNakH (canonized Hebrew scripture).

The Law (Torah): Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy

The Prophets (Nebiim): Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, The Twelve, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel

I have to shake my head when a Christian has to come to a bunch of Mormons to learn about what's in his own Bible. I take it as a sad commentary on the state of protestant scholarship and teaching. Don't you guys ever read your old testament any more?

[jcob]

Well then I have to look at Ephesians 4:11 and say... I am not seeing the unity of the faith that I think is required for them to be done away with.

I believe the unity of the faith is reffering to the Jew and the Gentile (see Galatians 3:26-28). If you believe that Prophets are needed until their is only one denomination, how do you reconcile this with the idea of a total apostasy. If Prophets were given forever then surely you must have to throw the total apostasy doctrine out?

[jcob]

FYI: "The Law" and "The Prophets" are two sets of books that make up the TaNakH (canonized Hebrew scripture).

The Law (Torah): Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy

The Prophets (Nebiim): Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, The Twelve, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel

I have to shake my head when a Christian has to come to a bunch of Mormons to learn about what's in his own Bible. I take it as a sad commentary on the state of protestant scholarship and teaching. Don't you guys ever read your old testament any more?

Thanks. I didnt realise this. The only thing is I left the LDS church a month or so ago and only attended another Church for the first time last Sunday. So it would appear that it was rather the mormon curriculum which failed me. Also love how you make the distinction between Christians and Mormons. I thought you were supposed to be Christian? Looks like the Church teaching failed you aswell. : )

Edited June 7, 2012 by cobbettj

[estradling75]

I believe the unity of the faith is reffering to the Jew and the Gentile (see Galatians 3:26-28). If you believe that Prophets are needed until their is only one denomination, how do you reconcile this with the idea of a total apostasy. If Prophets were given forever then surely you must have to throw the total apostasy doctrine out?

I'd call it an Apples to Oranges comparison ... The Apple is us uniting and living the gospel so well that no further guidance is needed (aka unity of faith and you can judge for yourself how likely that is.)

The Orange is God calling prophets and apostles to try to build this unity and then people turning around and killing, stoning, and disobeying them to the point that God executes judgement against them, pulls out the prophets and apostles, leaving the people experience the pains of disobedience. This lasts until God in his judgement again gives us a chance to (re)learn his ways and stop rebelling against him.

Or to put it simply the first one would be God saying the work is done... The second one is us trying God's patience.

[Dravin]

FYI: "The Law" and "The Prophets" are two sets of books that make up the TaNakH (canonized Hebrew scripture).

One doesn't even need to dig up fancy resources to know this:

In the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) the books were divided into three groups: the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.

Easily obtained online.

Link: Bible

In the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) the books were divided into three groups: the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (or Hagiographa).

And anyone with an LDS edition of the KJV has this reference sitting in the back of their scriptures.

Link: Bible

[annewandering]

If the 'law and the prophets' really was referring to not needing prophets any more then does it also mean we dont need laws any more?

[Shawn_]

Good question.

Mathew 21:33-37 "he sent his servants" "But last of all he sent unto them his son"

This is a parable and not meant to say that Jesus is literally the last one sent. That wouldn’t make sense because Paul was made a prophet after the crucifixion.

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached"

This has already been explained.

Acts 2:18 "And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy"

If servants and handmaidens can prophesy, that must mean there has not been an end to prophets. However, there is order is who prophecies apply to.

Ephesians 2:20 "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone"

This in no way precludes modern-day prophets. The foundation was laid, but this does not say there are no more apostles and prophets.

Ephesians 4:11- "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets" "Till we all come in the unity of the faith" (See Galatians 3:28)

KJV reads "And he agave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" The saints are not perfect and the ministry still needs work so prophets are still needed.

Hebrews 1:1-2 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son"

Yes, the Son came to earth and spoke to us. He then spoke to us through Peter, Paul, and others. Otherwise, we would not even have the book of Hebrews. We can still have prophets today.

[annewandering]

by the way love your avatar, Shawn!

[NeuroTypical]

Thanks. I didnt realise this. The only thing is I left the LDS church a month or so ago and only attended another Church for the first time last Sunday.

:) That's a fair response. I encourage you to not ignore the old testament as you go forward with your new faith.

So it would appear that it was rather the mormon curriculum which failed me.

Oh, I don't know if that's automatically so true. Here are a handful of LDS resources that talk about it:

Bible Dictionary: Bible

In the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) the books were divided into three groups: the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (or Hagiographa). See Luke 24:44. This arrangement was according to the Jews’ evaluation of the importance of the books based on the identity of the author.

Study helps: Guide to the Scriptures: Bible

In the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) the books were divided into three groups: the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. The Bible used by the Christian world classifies the books according to subject matter, such as historical, poetical, and prophetical.

Study Helps: Guide to the scriptures: Pentateuch

Study Helps: Bible Dictionary: Pentateuch

The Law after Christ By Stephen E. Robinson - Ensign

Additionally, I remember being taught this in Sunday school the last time we were looking at the Bible. (It is true that we had an outstanding Jewish teacher, so I can't be sure if he was reading from the instructor's manual or just being outstanding.)

Also love how you make the distinction between Christians and Mormons. I thought you were supposed to be Christian?

Nah, I should have been typing 'non-LDS Christians' the whole time, but I figured my meaning would be clear enough. I earned your response though. I may be projecting my own frustrations a bit, I just have lost count of the times when someone who claims to believe and follow the Bible, comes to me with a criticism of my faith that is based on ignorance of what that Bible teaches. I hope you have a better experience at the church you're attending. If you feel the need to criticize your former faith, learn about the pentecost and the last supper before you criticize our sacrament. Learn about the Abrahamic covenant, and how the Bible says you are a part of it, before you laugh at our patriarchical blessings. Learn about how you can shout hosannas to the Lord, before you snicker at our temple dedications. Learn everything about what Christ promised His disciples, before you have a beef with us for thinking we can be gods. And learn what you believe and why you believe it, before you start trying to poke holes in what I believe. Edited June 7, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Shawn_]

by the way love your avatar, Shawn!

Avatar? That's a real picture of me :)

[annewandering]

So nice to see you on the boards! Love your portrayal of Desmond!

[jcob]

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached"

I acknowledge that this was my error. Always good to learn. But still interested to hear your take on the rest of the scriptures. I understand the Church was built on a foundation of prophets and apostles, but does a foundation keep building?

When the apostles replaced Judas, they specifically chose two disciples who were witnesses from the time of John the baptist to the resurection (see Acts 1:15-22). When Paul was called to be an apostle, he became a witness of the resurection. It seems that their testimony was very important in their roles. Should not everyone who claims to be an apostle share the same "eyewitness" testimonies so that we know they arnt following cunningly devised fables? (see 2 Peter 1:16)

[JesusParadox]

Let me get this straight, you attended another church for a week and they are already bashing us? Brother, does know them by their fruit come to mind? Their fruit is not righteous if they spread hate? Count yourself as blessed, the Lord is sending you an undeniable message, that this church is true! There is nothing you have done or said that will stop the Lord from allowing you to regain his light. Brother, I urge you to think this through and come back!

[jcob]

Let me get this straight, you attended another church for a week and they are already bashing us? Brother, does know them by their fruit come to mind? Their fruit is not righteous if they spread hate? Count yourself as blessed, the Lord is sending you an undeniable message, that this church is true! There is nothing you have done or said that will stop the Lord from allowing you to regain his light. Brother, I urge you to think this through and come back!

No, the people at my Church are amazing, they arnt bashing anyone. They glorify the Father. When I look at them I see tax collectors (see Luke 18:9-14) when I look at LDS I see people trying to make themselves righteous (see Philipians 3:9). Im just interested to expand my knowledge, but I do recognize I am bringing up touchy subjects.

Edited June 7, 2012 by cobbettj

[annewandering]

No, the people at my Church are amazing, they arnt bashing anyone. They glorify the Father. When I look at them I see tax collectors (see Luke 18:9-14}. Im just interested to expand my knowledge.

and as a side benefit do a little 'smacking' that you know is unfounded if you paid attention to any of the lessons you were taught in the church?

[jcob]

and as a side benefit do a little 'smacking' that you know is unfounded if you paid attention to any of the lessons you were taught in the church?

I dont do it to bring anyone down. Its becouse I am genuinly interested in comparing the doctrines of the Bible with what I learnt growing up. Im happy to answer questions anyone else has about my faith to. I prefer if we talk about the doctrine rather than my reasons for comparing the doctrine.

[volgadon]

No, the people at my Church are amazing, they arnt bashing anyone. They glorify the Father. When I look at them I see tax collectors (see Luke 18:9-14) when I look at LDS I see people trying to make themselves righteous (see Philipians 3:9).

Do you also see beams?

[annewandering]

Being at 'your' church for a week I am sure makes you the goto person! Anyway I need to stop being snide but, honestly, I dont trust you or your motivations.

[Vort]

No, the people at my Church are amazing, they arnt bashing anyone. They glorify the Father. When I look at them I see tax collectors (see Luke 18:9-14) when I look at LDS I see people trying to make themselves righteous (see Philipians 3:9).

I admit it -- on rare occasion, a reaction is best expressed as a smiley.

[jcob]

Being at 'your' church for a week I am sure makes you the goto person! Anyway I need to stop being snide but, honestly, I dont trust you or your motivations.

Actually I only had about 4 people in the entire congregation say hello to me, so I wouldnt say I was the "goto" person. I wouldnt trust me either, Jesus said "let no man decieve you". Rather then sidestepping the issues can we talk about the doctrine.

[Vort]