Issues with agency, and "plans"

[richards]

I am a recovering agnostic who has been active in church throughout my personal faith crisis primarily because I want to remain married and accepted in my family. Recently as I pay attention in conversations about church, etc. I have been bothered by something. There seems to be a lot of conversation about "God's plan for me" and "pray about what God wants you to do for this or that" and "receive personal revelation" or "I feel like I am living in line with what God wants me to do" etc. It is like our heavenly father has specific expectations for us and our families (which job, car, or even what summer programs our kids involve themselves in).

As I think about agency, I think that a micromanaging God is in conflict with our doctrine. It seems like agency is a two-choice dilemma instead of an array of good choices and one incorrect choice.

I am just curious (and I am horrible at philosophy) is it a Calvinist belief that we are predetermined to make choice x, y, and z to live in line with a plan that God has for us? If so, is this belief a doctrine of men that is in conflict with divine agency? A related matter is that of predetermined family relationships such as those in Saturday's Warrior. Think of the stress that it puts on an individual to "find" the person they loved in the pre existence.

I am curious to know people's thoughts on these issues.

[FunkyTown]

Agency is a funny thing when we're talking about an omniscient being. My personal dislike for Calvinism required some pondering to get to what I believe to be the truth. If it makes you feel better, think of synonyms for the word 'Plan' - 'Agenda' or 'Timetable' would be good. When you are acting in accordance with God's plan, you are acting in accordance with His agenda - Which is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Agency is not simply a series of good choices along with one bad one. In some cases, the decision is as simple as good versus bad, but in most cases it's a case of 'Good, better, best' and 'Bad, worse, worst'.

As an example: A husband works as a clerk in a government agency. You've sent in a letter to renew your license as you want to continue using your car. The clerk can:

Dutifully work and fulfill your request, allowing you to do what you need to.

Take the day off as vacation and go spend it with his son, who is sick.

Ignore your request and talk a suicidal coworker through their tough day.

Conversely, they could:

Spend all day staring at the clock.

Contemptuously 'lose' your license application.

Go home and scream at his wife because he's stressed at being overworked.

It's not always easy to know God's specific plan. I pray to know and hope I do find it. Sometimes, it seems so obvious. Other times, I feel like a dinghy adrift in a hurricane. That's okay - God lets us choose because He knows the way to eternal life.

[Dravin]

A related matter is that of predetermined family relationships such as those in Saturday's Warrior. Think of the stress that it puts on an individual to "find" the person they loved in the pre existence.

Heh, someone just linked to the Wikipedia entry for Saturday's Warrior in another thread. I was happy to see the entry contained this line:

At the same time, Saturday's Warrior is notable for being a popular source of unofficial and unsanctioned doctrine such as pre-existence-founded romantic relationships reaching fruition during mortality.

Link: Saturday's Warrior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Personally not only do I think it's unsanctioned and unofficial, I think it's a bunch of horse hockey. As such I don't need a way to deal with it.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Dravin

[FunkyTown]

Personally not only do I think it's unsanctioned and unofficial, I think it's a bunch of horse hockey. As such I don't need a way to deal with it.

Your FACE is a bunch of horse hockey and I said that to you in the pre-existence, Dravin!

Horse hockey face aside, Dravin makes a good point. It's unlikely we were told, "This is who you are destined to be with." - It's a romantic notion and as long as you don't suffer from One-itis because of it, I don't see any harm in believing it. I just think there's no evidence for it.

And Dravin? I'm sorry I added 'Your face' and then repeated what you said. I hope my razored wit hasn't scarred you for life and, with considerable therapy, you may come to forgive me some day.

[Dravin]

And Dravin? I'm sorry I added 'Your face' and then repeated what you said. I hope my razored wit hasn't scarred you for life and, with considerable therapy, you may come to forgive me some day.

I am now an empty shell of a person because of your vicious and wild attack upon my psyche. Make compensation payments out to Beefche.

[Windseeker]

Here is a previous discussion that had some interesting posts.

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/10388-predetermination.html

My thoughts on this is that the most important thing is to seek the will of our Heavenly Father and he will guide us. That's pretty much it.

[john doe]

I think that there are many times that we are faced with a decision that God doesn't care about. For instance, whether to have tacos or burgers for lunch. However, when we learn to recognize and follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost, we will many times find ourselves on God's Path.

[NeuroTypical]

Hi richards,

Mormons aren't big on predestination. We prefer the term "foreordination". The basic notion being that God picked some of us to do something in the preexistence (Joseph Smith was foreordained to usher in the last dispensation for example). However, we retain our agency, and just because God picked us for this or that job, doesn't guarantee we'll do it. If Joseph had shirked his duty, God would have found someone else.

I came within a few credit hours of a minor in philosophy, and I'm no good at it either. The debate between free will and determinism started long before either of us came on the scene, and it'll be debated long after we're gone. It's certainly a debate larger than just the LDS faith. If you can resolve things for everyone, I personally will paypal you a dollar.

[TheMusicTheory]

A mild point that "recovering agnostic" makes it sound a bit like we have a disease like alcoholism.

That aside:

The Calvinist model is actually a rather interesting rational logical jump. The argument goes a little like this:

God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

An omniscient being can see all things in time and space, past, present and future simultaneously.

An omniscient being thus knows precisely how all of time will unfold.

Thus, we are predestined to our fates.

It's a fascinating study.

[JesusParadox]

An omniscient being thus knows precisely how all of time will unfold.

Thus, we are predestined to our fates.

The very long leap in between those two must be where the debate is at. I don't see how God knowing everything means we are predestined.

[TheMusicTheory]

The very long leap in between those two must be where the debate is at. I don't see how God knowing everything means we are predestined.

Understand that as an agnostic I don't hold to the ideas, but merely find them interesting.

The argument is that if God knows everything then he knows precisely every choice we are going to make. Thus, are those choices truly free choices? Are we actually free to make different choices? Would doing so refute that God is omniscient since we will have made a choice contrary to his perception?

In other words, "God puts us on the earth and knows exactly, from birth to death, every choice we will make...thus we do not have the free will to make true choices."

You are correct that that is definitely the sticking point.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Agency is not simply a series of good choices along with one bad one. In some cases, the decision is as simple as good versus bad, but in most cases it's a case of 'Good, better, best' and 'Bad, worse, worst'.

I agree.

I think it was David O. McKay said something along the lines that the church or the gospel is for the purpose of making bad men good and good men better.

I think one of the purposes of agency is to gain an appreciation of the value of our choices. It is to understand that what God would like us to do is always the best choice for us. And that by following our own whim and ignorant drive is a much slower way to progress and can be limiting. That feel for wanting the best and trusting that His will is always the best choice has to come over time and with faith. Sometimes those expressions as the OP outlined are an outward expression of one's desire (not that they have it all the way yet), one's choice and therefore not giving up agency but an expression of their agency, to follow God's plan as a goal.

[Traveler]

Most people have no problem with the concept that G-d knows in advance what we are going to do. From my understanding of LDS theology I would like to take that another step forward. That before we came to earth - we also knew about what we would be doing here as G-d did.

It seems obvious that we do not change as much in the grand scheme of things as we like to think we do. A question I often ask myself is - what difference will this make in 10,000 years?

I am inclined to think in terms as our life as being in a service. Having served in the military I understand somewhat what it is to be a agent of the country in a time of war. There were things expected of me - and even though I wore a uniform I still have my individual personality. But during my service I had no real choice to serve in combat or not - many things were decided for me. There were some in the military that were drafted and some that volunteered. But the expectations were the same for both - in essence - follow the big plan.

In life we can make the choice to go awol from G-d's plan or we can fulfill our mission - what should be obvious is that the general outcome will not change much. But our individual outcome is very much in play.

In life we really do not know much of what we are doing. Those that think they are in control or less likely to understand what is going on than those that "get with the program".

Each summer I take a group of people white water rafting. One thing I teach is that the river is in control - all we can chose to do is either work against the current or with it - but in the end everything floating on the river moves down stream. Working with the river can be an adventure and a lot of fun but working against the river can get yourself and others killed. So I tell those with me - if you want to work against the river and do your own thing - do not get in one of my boats - go get your own and good luck. I have observed that life is a lot like running white water.

The Traveler

[mrmarklin]

The only plan God has for us is to return to His presence. He has laid out a course of action (Faith repentance, Baptism, good works, etc etc) and it's up to us to follow it or not.

Your vocation, spouse, children, number of vacations, etc etc are all up to you.

Somehow a notion that "God knows all" is seen as limiting our choices. But of course that's not so. I "know" that if I offer my granddaughter ice cream she will enthusiastically take it. Does that limit her choice? I don't think so. She can refuse it (in my dreams).

Edited June 8, 2012 by mrmarklin

[mrmarklin]

An uderstanding of game theory used in complex computer programs can give us some idea of how God seems to "know" everything.

He doesn't really, but using His knowledge of probablilities, He has a pretty good idea of what will happen to us as a race.

Whether or not He knows if I'm going to get safely to my country property this afternoon or not (it's a 4 hour drive), I don't know if He knows or even cares very much. I'll keep you posted.

EDIT: It's the next day and I made it here. Did God know if I would make it? Did He even know I was going? I didn't make the decision until Thursday pm. In any event, I made all the decisions myself. I didn't feel any influence, and my arriving safely was due to good driving skills.

Edited June 9, 2012 by mrmarklin

[Shawn_]

Honestly, I was pretty darn close to being agnostic a couple years ago. I was then reminded of previous revelations I've had.

Members of the Church seek guidance to many different degrees. I guess some people take it too far. I think people want to be guided, but not forced, so we still have agency. I actually need to pray more.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Shawn_
I felt like it.

[Vort]

Personally not only do I think it's unsanctioned and unofficial, I think it's a bunch of horse hockey.

I used to feel that way, too. And I still think that those who assume they'll meet their premortal lover are probably extremely naive.

But there was something between Sister Vort and me when we first met and dated. If it wasn't "I've seen that smile somewhere before", it was at least something of the same general character. It was just right, in a deep sense. And I do not believe it was merely some lucky stroke of compatibility, though I admit it may have been such a thing.

[Dravin]

I used to feel that way, too. And I still think that those who assume they'll meet their premortal lover are probably extremely naive.

But there was something between Sister Vort and me when we first met and dated. If it wasn't "I've seen that smile somewhere before", it was at least something of the same general character. It was just right, in a deep sense. And I do not believe it was merely some lucky stroke of compatibility, though I admit it may have been such a thing.

For the record I have no problem with the idea that two compatible individuals were lead towards each other by the influence of the Lord. It's the idea of, "I was 'betrothed' to you in pre-mortal existence and promised to seek you out". It's just soul mates or 'the one' with an LDS pre-mortality spin to it.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Dravin

[RipplecutBuddha]

I used to feel that way, too. And I still think that those who assume they'll meet their premortal lover are probably extremely naive.

But there was something between Sister Vort and me when we first met and dated. If it wasn't "I've seen that smile somewhere before", it was at least something of the same general character. It was just right, in a deep sense. And I do not believe it was merely some lucky stroke of compatibility, though I admit it may have been such a thing.

I'm still wondering if Mrs. Vort knows you're a woman online....

[HEthePrimate]

I don't know that we have as much agency as we like to think. Much of what we do is the result of instinct, of the way our brain is constructed, the chemical reactions going on inside of our body, and of the way the human mind works.

But I do think we have a certain amount of ability to choose, and if it is limited by certain things, all the more reason to value our freedom!

God may have a plan for us, but maybe not much in the way of specific plans. The general plan is for us to "grow up" and become more godlike. To a large extent, how we accomplish that may be up to us. What should your occupation be? Maybe God doesn't really care what you do for a living, as long as it's honest and helpful to your fellow beings, and allows you to grow.

It's possible that God has more specific missions for some people, but there's nothing to say it's that way for everybody. And he doesn't force people to do things, no matter how many plans he made, because it's important to him that we are free to make our own choices as much as we can. If someone chooses to ignore God's plan, or fight against it, as a friend of mine likes to say, "God is God because he has contingency plans!"

[horax]

God doens't care what kind of car you drive....as long as it's not a Dodge.

Our entire life is our chioce, that is the whole plan. We are presented with good and evil and we make the decision (influenced by our beliefs, morals, upbringing, etc.) and have to live with the outcome.

The trick here is that God knew that NOBODY would make all the right choices. That is why He provided the Plan of Salvation to provide a way for everybody to come back to His presence, IF (again a choice) they abided by the rules of hte Plan and utilized Christ's sacrifice for us.

I have three kids, and knowing them the way I do, I know what their choices will be when faced with certain options. However, that does not mean that I tell them or make them do things. It's just becuase I know them so well.

I believe that God knows me more than I know my own children, so it's no surprise to him when I slip up and do something I shouldn't do. BUT, I keep trying to get past my shortfalls and apply the Plan to my life and try to improve and become a better individual.

god knows that I'm trying, as well...and I think that's the important thing. Keep working towards perfection.