0 Tolerance High Violence

[kathysmike]

]This is my Son's second year in this High school, they have declared the consequecne for being a combative/particapent in any pysical confrotation will be handcuffs atrirp to the police station and ticket with a $ 375.00 fine. This whole thing came out the other night durring the open house, I told my son think before you swing because if your bank dont have 375 I wont be paying for it.

I was amazed at the reactiomary questions from the other parents what if my kid faught in self defence, what if he was sucker punched. I fthe child streaks back at all other than too ball out or fall downn to coverthemseleves, they would be striking out towards Aa other student, cuffs ticket.

when rules are spelled out with stiff penetalys why do people look for exceptions for ourselves or for those we love' Thoughts?

Edited September 14, 2012 by kathysmike

[john doe]

The 'edit post to make sense' button is broken.

[Vort]

In high school, I was physically attacked numerous times. The one single time I fought back -- which consisted of holding my attacker and bleeding on him -- I was suspended for three days.

School administrators are cowards, as are the teachers. They want to have rules that they then apply indiscriminately so that they are not required to demonstrate gonadal presence they sadly lack. Parents know this; that's why they look for specifics.

[NeuroTypical]

]when rules are spelled out with stiff penetalys why do people look for exceptions for ourselves or for those we love' Thoughts?

Yep - stupid cowardly rules that could penalize someone who did no wrong, is one of the big reasons we decided to homeschool. You won't catch me at some meeting complaining about having to pay the $375 because one of my kids pulled a bully off a special needs girl.

Now if I can just get that voucher law passed, then schools may actually be forced to open their eyes to how tragicly amoral some of these these zero tolerance penalties are.

[Windseeker]

Vort, that has been my experience as well until my son went to Monroe High School. I actually got a call from the Vice Principal letting me know that my son got in an altercation at school and that he didn't want me to be alarmed. He commended my son for subduing a kid who assaulted a teacher.

I asked my son about it and it was a bully had been threatening my son who refused to fight in school. So he started pushing around my son’s smaller friends and a brand new female teacher tried to intervene and the kid turned and punched her and that's when my son finally got involved.

According to my son he got some nice shots in.

Anyway not all officials lack brains or “gonadal presence” , but it certainly is rare.

[idahommie]

My son has been suspended twice for fighting. He never initiated the violence, as witnesses attested to. There are two rules I teach my son; We never hit someone first, and #2 if you are hit then you swing until there is NO resistance in the other individual.

I had to petition teachers to allow him to remain a member of the NHS, and was very lucky to succeed.

Zero tolerance rules should have never been introduced to our school systems, of course parents and teachers should still be allowed to discipline kids as well.

[Blackmarch]

I generally go by the don't start it, but finish it philosophy. Hope to graduate to the anti-nephi-lehi philosophy someday.

[Guest]

I have taught my kids not to hit girls at ANY time for ANY reason. I am starting to regret that teaching. Yesterday was PE for my 6th grader. He's been having "too much popularity with the girls" issues since the beginning of school because he has a very slight resemblance to Taylor Lautner who the girls seem to be crazy about. So in PE yesterday a girl came up to my son (boys and girls have a different PE teacher but share the same gym. That girl is not supposed to be at the boys' side of the gym) and slapped him then giggled and her friends were giggling too. My son was caught by surprise, asked the girl what did you do that for, and she said, oh, my friends dared me to do it! This slapping was, of course, timed so that the teachers were not looking.

Now, my son is a trained MMA fighter. He has this instinctive reflex to twist a hand into a pretzel if it comes near his face. The only thing that stopped that reflex was because the slap came from a girl. If it was a boy, it might have turned out differently.

Okay, so my son brushed the incident off. PE is 1.5 hours. Towards the end of P.E. as they were walking towards the lockers, the same girl sneaked from behind and tried to hit him again - he dodged and blocked the hit, and the girl kicked his shin, which he was also able to block. My son was 1 second away from snapping and just decking the girl. All throughout this event, girls were surrounding them giggling! He was so mad he didn't bother going to a teacher to report the incident (which was dumb on his part) - he just grabbed his stuff from his locker and took off (P.E. is last period). He got to my car and cried from supressed anger.

So, how this relates to the OP. If a school is so riddled with violence or Administrative stupidity that it has to have a zero tolerance policy like that, my kid will not be going to that school. If, for some insane reason he has to go to that school, I will give him license to fight back and I'll be saving $375 right now and at the same time actively working in the school system to put some sense into that Administration.

Just my 2 cents.

[NeuroTypical]

Great miracles were brought to pass because they kept their oath of peace.

(There - I found something nice to say.)

[Guest]

I fthe child streaks back at all other than too ball out or fall downn to coverthemseleves, they would be striking out towards Aa other student, cuffs ticket.

huh?

[Anddenex]

My oldest son, unfortunately has my height genes, last school year was consistently picked on by a bigger kid.

When they played football, the boy would watch to see if anyone was looking, and when my son was not looking would run over and lay my son out. At one time, he injured my sons back, and we were worried there was permanent damage. Fortunately, it wasn't serious, just bruised.

The conversation we have had with him, he does it again, let the teachers know. If he does it again, and the teachers do nothing about it, then when he isn't looking, let him have it.

Unfortunately, the only way to appropriately deal with these types of bullies, is to stand up for yourself, and hit them back, when teachers do not act right away and discipline a bully.

[Guest]

My oldest son, unfortunately has my height genes, last school year was consistently picked on by a bigger kid.

When they played football, the boy would watch to see if anyone was looking, and when my son was not looking would run over and lay my son out. At one time, he injured my sons back, and we were worried there was permanent damage. Fortunately, it wasn't serious, just bruised.

The conversation we have had with him, he does it again, let the teachers know. If he does it again, and the teachers do nothing about it, then when he isn't looking, let him have it.

Unfortunately, the only way to appropriately deal with these types of bullies, is to stand up for yourself, and hit them back, when teachers do not act right away and discipline a bully.

See here. That's the thing. A zero tolerance policy that threatens perpetrators and victims of bullying in the same manner will cause a child not to stand up for themselves. Because, a bully will not bully infront of a teacher. And, usually, a bully will threaten to increase the pain if the child "tattles to the teacher". In which case, the victim will remain a victim and not have the proper tools to rise above victimhood.

This type of thinking is not for my child. My child is taught not to put up with bullies even if I have to pick him up from detention everyday for it. And if he's the one being the bully? He'll fear his dad's discipline more than detention.

We are having a problem with middle school. My son is still telling me not to get involved and that he's still in control of the situation. I'm ready to walk into the Admin office and demand action... but that's just the mama bear in me.

Edited September 14, 2012 by anatess

[Anddenex]

See here. That's the thing. A zero tolerance policy that threatens perpetrators and victims of bullying in the same manner will cause a child not to stand up for themselves. Because, a bully will not bully infront of a teacher. And, usually, a bully will threaten to increase the pain if the child "tattles to the teacher". In which case, the victim will remain a victim and not have the proper tools to rise above victimhood.

This I have found to be 100% true. Growing up my father taught us two things:

1. If you are being picked on, and you defend yourself, make sure you finish it.

2. If you are bullying someone else, when you get home, I will finish it when you get home.

My father was picked on consistently in his younger years, and would have been picked on more, if it weren't for a friend who was 6'4", and a big guy. My dad describes him as a young man who would pick up bails of hay with one hand and throw it into the back of the truck.

[applepansy]

I reported a teacher and principle to the School Board over bullying and blaming the victim. The teacher got a permanent reprimand. I don't know but I think the principle got a slap on the wrist. grrrr

[applepansy]

My oldest son, unfortunately has my height genes, last school year was consistently picked on by a bigger kid.

When they played football, the boy would watch to see if anyone was looking, and when my son was not looking would run over and lay my son out. At one time, he injured my sons back, and we were worried there was permanent damage. Fortunately, it wasn't serious, just bruised.

The conversation we have had with him, he does it again, let the teachers know. If he does it again, and the teachers do nothing about it, then when he isn't looking, let him have it.

Unfortunately, the only way to appropriately deal with these types of bullies, is to stand up for yourself, and hit them back, when teachers do not act right away and discipline a bully.

That's when I would be contacting the parents with the medical bill in hand.

[beefche]

anatess, I'm curious. What is being done to this girl that slapped and kicked your son? Are you talking to her parents? The teachers? What?

[slamjet]

0 tolerance is the biggest farce perpetrated by the biggest group of wimps and cowards that academia could produce... lazy, incompetent administrators. It's a stupid, easy way to deal with perceived problems without having to think about a thing.

So a kid borrows an asthma inhaler and gets expelled, not suspended but EXPELLED from school because of the 0 tolerance drug policy. Another 10 year old gets suspended for bringing peppermint oil to school because of the 0 tolerance drug policy. How about aspirin? Nope, suspended for taking it. Oh I know, how about singing "I'm sexy and I know it. Nope, a six year old get suspended. Oh wait, no one will get into trouble for defending themselves! How about suspension for pushing a bully away when being attacked? Or I know, misbehaving 6 year olds... GIVE THEM TICKETS!

I've had to deal with this nonsense when my kids were here in Los Angeles. I marched down to the school to talk to the teacher about why my fourth grade daughter was being penalized for defending herself when a bully was messing with her? My girl was devastated! She couldn't figure out why she got into trouble when she was minding her own business and these other girls came at her? Well, the teacher back down really quick because she saw steam shooting out my ears (surprisingly enough I didn't even yell, I asked direct questions for which she couldn't answer) and the real kicker, THE TEACHER SAW THE WHOLE DARN THING! Now my kids are in a school district where zero tolerance is at a minimum.

Zero tolerance, what a huge crock of fermented feces.

[Vort]

I generally go by the don't start it, but finish it philosophy. Hope to graduate to the anti-nephi-lehi philosophy someday.

The anti-Nephi-Lehis were, by their own admission, base murderers who were seeking any possible way of finding atonement for their numerous and horrendous sins. Their covenant was both extreme and unique, and in no way serves as a guide for us (except as the obvious example of people willing to do anything to escape their sins and turn their hearts to God). Even their own sons did not follow their covenant, but instead, at their parents' urging, fought manfully for the Nephites and became an inspiration to an entire generation, and indeed to us two millennia later.

[EarlJibbs]

I am sure the $$ cahrged in the ticket.... if not paid will prohibit you from gradualting correct?

[Blackmarch]

The anti-Nephi-Lehis were, by their own admission, base murderers who were seeking any possible way of finding atonement for their numerous and horrendous sins...

Exactly.

yet even with the covenant not to take up arms still left various avenues on how to deal with their brethren. out of all the options they could have chosen, they chose to go out and meet them, in prayer. To call upon God to help their enemies even while they were being slaughtered by them.

Now i'm not saying that's how every conflict should be solved. But being able to place the value of an enemies life over your own says something.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Blackmarch

[Guest]

anatess, I'm curious. What is being done to this girl that slapped and kicked your son? Are you talking to her parents? The teachers? What?

None. I'm not doing anything. My son has insisted several times that I leave him to handle the situation. I'm not sure if you read some of my previous posts on some threads about this problem but it's been looking like the events have been slowly getting more serious. I was on high alert at the first week of school. I just have this intuition that this is not your regular "boy is popular with the girls" issue.

But all I have done is prop up my son and be his sounding board and give him advice and suggestion. We had Open House last week and I talked to every single teacher and asked about his performance in school, their impression of him, is he engaged in the lessons, etc. All teachers (even the one that he got in trouble with) have the normal teacher remarks that I expected. I made some hints like, "are the girls bothering him too much", and the teachers all say, "oh, nothing more than normal middle school age things".

No, my instincts tell me this is not your normal middle school age things.

[mtnbikemom]

Ah I love the Zero Tolerance policies. Just a couple of stories (of many) to illustrate:

#1-When my son was in first grade I received a call that he'd been playing with weapons during recess and the principal was very concerned. My son would not be allowed to go back out to recess until this was resolved. His weapon? A light saber. Not even the bright green toy one that he received for his birthday. An imaginary one. He was playing Star Wars with his friend (also in trouble for 'playing with weapons) in a light saber duel. The 'zero tolerance' policy nearly resulted in expulsion for a 6 year old. We pointed out the absurdity of the rule to the administration and thought it was hilarious; the administration did not.

#2-Same first grader, short with bright red hair, seemed to be fodder for an older kid we'll call Thug. Thug loved to pick on my son, a situation the teacher and school were aware of. We had told my son that he was absolutely justified in defending himself and others. In first grade parlance that was distilled to 'sometimes it's okay to punch back.' I received a call from the principal that my son was suspended for two days for fighting with Thug. My normally expressive and talkative son was having trouble explaining what happened so I had him draw me a picture. He drew two fighting kids but there was also a pair of "floating fists". He explained that when Thug tried to hit him, he grabbed Thug's fists, and starting hitting Thug utilizing the playground classic "Stop hitting yourself." The principal said that they were well aware that my son hadn't started anything but zero tolerance meant zero tolerance. He also wanted us to be aware that there was some sort of misunderstanding as my son had told him it that sometimes it was okay to punch back. Things deteriorated when I explained there was no misunderstanding. Things went from bad to worse when the principal made suggestions on how we should punish my son while he was suspended and I responded by asking my son where he wanted to ski the next day.

All in all we've received hours of entertainment and additional family time because of zero tolerance. I'm calling it a win.

[Sharky]

What blows my mind .... ?

When we moved our youngest son was then in Jr High. He had a history of being "a little" violent at school both with teachers & other kids. He had attacked a coach a few years earlier & was a known "instigator" at his previous school - rarely in trouble but usually in the area & had been the one pushing the other kids to "break the rules".

This new school had a Zero Tolerance policy as did most schools at the time (right after the Columbine school shootings in Colorado).

We met with the school before making the move & explained to them our concerns. They minimized what we were telling them & took an approach of there was nothing they could do in advance of him being enrolled.

We did everything we could, even meet with the District Superintendant.

Still all we got was: "There is nothing we can do preemptively prior to him being enrolled and in attendance."

Luckily we documented all of this because we knew what was going to happen & felt it would be sooner rather then later.

Sure enough, on his 6th day in that school he "tossed" a book on the floor & was subsequently was confronted by one of the male teachers.

His response? He physically attacked the teacher.

Of course the school resource officer responded, cuffed him & took him to the police station & he was charged in juvinile court.

In the course of the court proceedings we explained to judge our position ... HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE! To which the judge was a little confused & VERY thankful as most parents try to defend their kids actions or claim their kids did no wrong.

We also presented to judge our documentation of the efforts we had taken to prevent just such an event from happening & the response we got from the school & the district.

The Judge kind of "blew his top"!

I'm told that he could be heard thru half the court house. He was astonished that school & district officials would brush off a parents concerns that their kid would, without question, injure another student or a teacher. He could not believe that a new student with a history would simply be thrust into a new school without any preemptive planning or testing or assitance to the teachers or parents taking place.

The judge did not hold back voicing his opinions of the "real" responsibility being held by the school & district officials we had been speaking with.

[Anddenex]

Things went from bad to worse when the principal made suggestions on how we should punish my son while he was suspended and I responded by asking my son where he wanted to ski the next day.

All in all we've received hours of entertainment and additional family time because of zero tolerance. I'm calling it a win.

Ha, I know of a father in a similar situation. He was being picked on, and the father agreed with the mother, who said, next time he bullies you, hit him and hit him hard.

The next day the kid picked on him and he socked him, gave him a bloody nose. They called the father in as a result of the zero tolerance and told him what had happened.

When the father heard what happened, he said, something to this nature, don't remember exact quote, "If you suspend my son for three days, I will take a vacation and for three days we will spend at Magic Mountain [or Disneyland]."

The principle was ticked, however the son wasn't suspended.

[Guest]

anatess it sounds like it's time to stop letting your son call the shots and have a chat with someone in charge.