The Greater Advantage

[Anddenex]

In our Priesthood lesson, within the first chapter of our new manuals covering President Snow, we discussed the scripture D&C 130: 18 - 19.

How does our education give individuals a greater advantage in our next life?

Does this mean, our brothers and sisters who are mentally handicapped will suffer in the next life, for the lack of knowledge they gain in this life?

What knowledge or education, specifically, does one feel will give a person greater advantage in the next life?

[james12]

I believe that book learning gives little advantage in the next life. Nor does such learning by itself save.

As a matter of fact the Lord gives wisdom from books, only second place. For he says,"And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith." (D&C 88:118) Note the first few words, learning by faith is first. Book learning is second and is given for those who don't have sufficient faith! This statement is worth serious consideration.

To learn by faith is to initiate action in the present bolstered by evidence in the past and the whisperings of the Spirit. Once we act and receive the promised blessing for ourselves we grow in faith. Elder Bednar said, "Learning by faith requires spiritual, metal, and physical exertion and not just passive reception. It is in the sincerity and consistency of our faith inspired action that we indicate to our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, our willingness to learn and receive instruction from the Holy Ghost" (Seek Learning by Faith, Address to CES Religious Educators, Feb 3, 2006)

When we learn by faith we grow in leaps and bounds. Through this type of learning we incorporate gospel knowledge into our very being. This is the knowledge that will be so much the advantage in the world to come.

Edited January 14, 2013 by james12

[searching_questioner]

The words used in these verses are knowledge and intelligence, not education and they are most definitely not synonymous. I think that one of the most important differences between us and God is that God knows more than we do. The more we come to know, the more like God we become. The process of becoming more godlike is basically a learning process, a process of learning more and more and I believe that if we make a start on this process here and now, we will be ahead of the game later. Another point, I believe that one of the purposes in us coming to earth was to gain knowledge and experience - the whole Plan was set up for that purpose. As to the question of the mentally handicapped, I have no doubt that they are acquiring outstanding experiential knowledge of what it means to be handicapped in mortality, and for someone who is a god in embryo, no doubt this is also important knowledge to have.

[pam]

Here is what President Hinckley says:

Gordon B. Hinckley

We of this Church have been given a marvelous promise by the Lord. Said He: “That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day” (D&C 50:24).

What a remarkable statement that is. It is one of my favorite verses of scripture. It speaks of growth, of development, of the march that leads toward godhood. It goes hand in hand with these great declarations: “The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth” (D&C 93:36); “If a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come” (D&C 130:19); and, “Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection” (D&C 130:18).

What a profound challenge is found in these marvelous statements. We must go on growing. We must continually learn. It is a divinely given mandate that we go on adding to our knowledge.

We have access to institute of religion classes, extension courses, education weeks, and many other opportunities where, as we study and match our minds with others, we will discover a tremendous reservoir of capacity within ourselves.

It is never too late to learn. I believe this with all my heart. Sister Hinckley and I are growing old. We are in our mid-80s. I am constantly amazed at what a voracious reader she is. She reads two newspapers a day, goes through magazines, is an ardent student of the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, and I saw her the other evening reading a lengthy biography.

I know of no other practice which will make one more attractive in conversation than to be well-read in a variety of subjects. Said the Lord to you and to me: “Seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith. … Organize yourselves. … Cease to be idle” (D&C 88:118–119, 124).

The best books are the scriptures. Said the Lord: “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” (John 5:39). Read the Church magazines. There are many other worthwhile things to read. Reading will sharpen your mind. It will clean up your intellect. It will improve your speech to get into the thoughts of the great men and women of the ages, including those of our own age. (“A Conversation with Single Adults,” Ensign, Mar. 1997, 62)

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Does this mean, our brothers and sisters who are mentally handicapped will suffer in the next life, for the lack of knowledge they gain in this life?

I had a humorous experience recently that reminded me to question my assumptions. It's too long to share right now, but the point is...

You are assuming that that mentally handicapped people don't gain knowledge in this life. I think that basic assumption is wrong. Sure they don't learn and advance in the same fashion that we do, however, I believe that their Spirit is learning and gaining knowledge from their experience here...perhaps in a more advanced way than you and I.

[SanctitasDeo]

From another angle, I've always thought that the word knowledge in those verses refers to the kind of knowledge mentioned in John 17:3.

[Seminarysnoozer]

In our Priesthood lesson, within the first chapter of our new manuals covering President Snow, we discussed the scripture D&C 130: 18 - 19.

How does our education give individuals a greater advantage in our next life?

Does this mean, our brothers and sisters who are mentally handicapped will suffer in the next life, for the lack of knowledge they gain in this life?

What knowledge or education, specifically, does one feel will give a person greater advantage in the next life?

The advantage comes from the process of putting your heart in the right place, not from the facts that are learned. People that are not capable of accountability have already proven their heart is in the right place.

The advantage of having the desire to learn and put it into practice comes from the fact that God is all knowing, so it becomes an expression and part of the transformation to make ourselves like God. But, one of the misconceptions about this teaching is that we have to learn a certain number of facts and that the advantage is linearly related to that number. I think that is not true. Think of all that we learned in the thousands if not longer years spent in the presence of God without a veil of confusion or misunderstanding we do here and with the perfect language of communication where nothing is misunderstood. Our spirits were mature when arriving here. What else was there to learn in a secular sense? Nothing else. My spirit knows all the laws of physics, mathematics, biology, communication, social sciences etc. The only thing it didn't know is the experience of having to make those choices in the setting of being behind a veil of confusion and deception that pulls towards carnal desires. So, the learning comes in the form of appreciating the good from the evil, not in any kind of secular fact or detail.

[Anddenex]

I had a humorous experience recently that reminded me to question my assumptions. It's too long to share right now, but the point is...

You are assuming that that mentally handicapped people don't gain knowledge in this life. I think that basic assumption is wrong. Sure they don't learn and advance in the same fashion that we do, however, I believe that their Spirit is learning and gaining knowledge from their experience here...perhaps in a more advanced way than you and I.

On the contrary, I know handicapped people gain knowledge, and I would agree believing they do not is wrong.

[Anddenex]

Thank you all for your comments, in light of your comments, and I would like to further entice discussion regarding President Lorenzo Snow's words, which sparked this thread for me when he also said,

The whole idea of Mormonism is improvement - mentally, physically, morally and spiritually. No half-way education suffices for the Latter-day Saint.

I feel similar that the education we are to learn which brings us knowledge and intelligence is in accordance with the knowledge that brings eternal life, as mentioned John 17: 3.

Ultimately, in connection with my other questions, if two people reach heaven, and are exalted. One has more knowledge and intelligence than the other, what is his/her advantage?

If both obtain eternal life, the greatest gift God bestows, then does any person have an advantage?

Is it our knowledge that separates us from God?

If we already knew everything before, in perfection, as spirits, then wouldn't this knowledge return once the veil was gone -- then what advantage does our earth life knowledge, intelligence, our education grant us?

Thank you again for your thoughts.

[Windseeker]

If we already knew everything before, in perfection, as spirits, then wouldn't this knowledge return once the veil was gone -- then what advantage does our earth life knowledge, intelligence, our education grant us?

Perhaps what matters most is how we apply what knowledge is given us rather than the knowledge itself.

2 Nephi 9:28-29

O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

[Guest gopecon]

As Latter Day Saints, we believe in eternal progression. I think that if we arrive with more knowledge (of whatever form), we will have a bit of a "head start" on the learning that will go on after this life. I think this applies to everything from science and mathematics, to the intricacies of the Atonement.

[Vort]

I confess I'm a little bit disturbed (though not to the point that I come Down With the Sickness) at the competitive phrasing of this verse of scripture. What "advantage", exactly, are we aiming to get over our brethren and sisters in the next life? But I expect it's just phraseology and not anything deeper than that.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thank you all for your comments, in light of your comments, and I would like to further entice discussion regarding President Lorenzo Snow's words, which sparked this thread for me when he also said,

I feel similar that the education we are to learn which brings us knowledge and intelligence is in accordance with the knowledge that brings eternal life, as mentioned John 17: 3.

Ultimately, in connection with my other questions, if two people reach heaven, and are exalted. One has more knowledge and intelligence than the other, what is his/her advantage?

If both obtain eternal life, the greatest gift God bestows, then does any person have an advantage?

Is it our knowledge that separates us from God?

If we already knew everything before, in perfection, as spirits, then wouldn't this knowledge return once the veil was gone -- then what advantage does our earth life knowledge, intelligence, our education grant us?

Thank you again for your thoughts.

It says in the scripture you gave with the opening post that the blessing is predicated on the diligence and obedience by which the knowledge was obtained. I don't think one can separate the two issues, knowledge gained and obedience. It is the act of obedience in which the law states the blessing comes.

Yes, anyone who obeys more in this life will be resurrected at a level that is advantageous over someone who does not obey as much. I don't think we have to read anything more into that statement than that. I don't think that if person A obeyed the same percent or level based in God's judgement as person B that the two would have any different set of knowledge. The scripture isn't saying that.

[Seminarysnoozer]

As Latter Day Saints, we believe in eternal progression. I think that if we arrive with more knowledge (of whatever form), we will have a bit of a "head start" on the learning that will go on after this life. I think this applies to everything from science and mathematics, to the intricacies of the Atonement.

I do not think it applies to everything, I think that idea is prideful based in current circumstances. God is not a respecter of persons. All have access to Him and His knowledge. I do not believe I will be at some advantage over my just-as-dedicated brothers and sisters who pioneered and sacrificed everything in the 1840s just because I can study physics or mathematics or medical science in a way they could not. I think that idea is ridiculous.

I would put myself above Peter, James and John because I learned the physiology of the hypothalamus? Nonsense.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Seminarysnoozer

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon Anddenex and SeminarySnoozer!

If we already knew everything before, in perfection, as spirits, then wouldn't this knowledge return once the veil was gone -- then what advantage does our earth life knowledge, intelligence, our education grant us?

Think of all that we learned in the thousands if not longer years spent in the presence of God without a veil of confusion or misunderstanding we do here and with the perfect language of communication where nothing is misunderstood. Our spirits were mature when arriving here. What else was there to learn in a secular sense? Nothing else.

My spirit knows all the laws of physics, mathematics, biology, communication, social sciences etc. The only thing it didn't know is the experience of having to make those choices in the setting of being behind a veil of confusion and deception that pulls towards carnal desires. So, the learning comes in the form of appreciating the good from the evil, not in any kind of secular fact or detail.

Where can I find where the church teaches the doctrine expressed in the above quotes? Particularly, where do we learn that we knew everything in pefection in our pre-mortal life? Or, where can I find where the church teaches the doctrine that our spirits (or at least SeminarySnoozer's spirit) knows all of the laws of physics, math, biology, etc. prior to earth life?

Regards,

Finrock

[Traveler]

In our Priesthood lesson, within the first chapter of our new manuals covering President Snow, we discussed the scripture D&C 130: 18 - 19.

How does our education give individuals a greater advantage in our next life?

Does this mean, our brothers and sisters who are mentally handicapped will suffer in the next life, for the lack of knowledge they gain in this life?

What knowledge or education, specifically, does one feel will give a person greater advantage in the next life?

The pursuit of truth is a discipline - Those that discipline themselves in the rigors of discovering and understanding truth have an advantage - both in this life and the the next or whatever circumstance one finds themself where truth is beneficial.

All truth is beneficial and it is foolish (a untruth) for anyone to think themselves exempt from the eternal necessity to pursue truth or that anyone for any reason should be discouraged from truth - regardless of their abilities.

It is also important to learn and understand that the advantage is not necessarily for just individuals but to social structures that foster social relationships that encourage the pursuit of truth and do not try to hid or discourage certain truths - thinking to take personal advantage of others (including those handicapped). Too often we think of ourselves and individual advantage instead of realizing the truth that even G-d, in truth, pursues relationships that benefits others more than himself.

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

I confess I'm a little bit disturbed (though not to the point that I come Down With the Sickness) at the competitive phrasing of this verse of scripture. What "advantage", exactly, are we aiming to get over our brethren and sisters in the next life? But I expect it's just phraseology and not anything deeper than that.

Thank you Vort. This is a valid point.

[Anddenex]

Where can I find where the church teaches the doctrine expressed in the above quotes? Particularly, where do we learn that we knew everything in pefection in our pre-mortal life? Or, where can I find where the church teaches the doctrine that our spirits (or at least SeminarySnoozer's spirit) knows all of the laws of physics, math, biology, etc. prior to earth life?

Regards,

Finrock

Excellent questions Finrock. My quote wasn't specifying any doctrine, but was a question in light of the quotes you specified.

What doctrines do we have that express this idea? If we do, then what advantage do we gain, or is there any advantage at all, or as expressed by Vort, could it just be phraseology?

Best,

Andrew

[Anddenex]

It says in the scripture you gave with the opening post that the blessing is predicated on the diligence and obedience by which the knowledge was obtained. I don't think one can separate the two issues, knowledge gained and obedience. It is the act of obedience in which the law states the blessing comes.

Yes, anyone who obeys more in this life will be resurrected at a level that is advantageous over someone who does not obey as much. I don't think we have to read anything more into that statement than that. I don't think that if person A obeyed the same percent or level based in God's judgement as person B that the two would have any different set of knowledge. The scripture isn't saying that.

I believe it is through our obedience that further light and knowledge is granted unto us. Yes, I agree they can't be separated.

What are your thoughts then Seminary should two people reach exaltation, one more intelligent than the other, what is the advantage if both are exalted?

Thank you for replying and creating more discussion.

[Anddenex]

The pursuit of truth is a discipline - Those that discipline themselves in the rigors of discovering and understanding truth have an advantage - both in this life and the the next or whatever circumstance one finds themself where truth is beneficial.

The Traveler

How would you define this advantage Traveler if both are exalted? Is there any advantage if both are exalted?

I have wondered similar to others, is it that the closer we are to becoming like God, than another, is this the advantage? We then become like God sooner than another?

Thank you.

[estradling75]

Perhaps you are reading to much into it...

First of all which is the world to come... Sound like everyone it thinking final judgement, but the most imminent world to come is the one right after death. The spirit world. How much of the veil is pulled back in the spirit world? I don't know, but given that spirits can still accept the gospel there so I am thinking not to much. In such a case I can see it easily being true that some enter the spirit world with advantages that they gained from this life.

If we want to take the final judgement as the world to come then we still can use the statement. Someone that gets Terrestrial has (presumably) and advantage over someone that gets Telestrial, someone that gets Celestial could be seen as having an advantage over someone in the other two. And someone that gain exaltation could be seen as having an advantage over someone that does not.

It kind of breaks down at exaltation given that we are suppose to be equal... but maybe not...What if final judgement is God saying 'you will be' exalted? Based on what we've become and knowing that we will finish... but we will still have to finish everything? And some might be closer then other based on what has happened before. Thus one exalted being could be said to have an advantage over another exalted being simply by having been at it longer?

So I see no real problem with the idea as expressed... I do agree with Vort about the competitive phasing of passage. But I think that is a relic of our fallen world, I think that is us putting competition in a place it really is not.

[Traveler]

How would you define this advantage Traveler if both are exalted? Is there any advantage if both are exalted?

I have wondered similar to others, is it that the closer we are to becoming like God, than another, is this the advantage? We then become like God sooner than another?

Thank you.

I think you have missed the point - Truth is an advantage. I am a little dumfounded with many posts that seem to believe or hope that some ignorance (according to some distortion the philosophy of Cool Hand Luke or something) is the real advantage or short short cut to divine intelligence - but I do not believe it?

It is my understanding that there is only one way and that it would be intelligent to employ that way - and that one way is directly related to truth. (See John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)

If one does not know the truth - it is impossible to know Christ. If one comes to know the truth - they will know Christ. Why try to separate the two?

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

Perhaps you are reading to much into it...

First of all which is the world to come... Sound like everyone it thinking final judgement, but the most imminent world to come is the one right after death. The spirit world. How much of the veil is pulled back in the spirit world? I don't know, but given that spirits can still accept the gospel there so I am thinking not to much. In such a case I can see it easily being true that some enter the spirit world with advantages that they gained from this life.

I don't believe I am reading into it to much, however I am trying to understand the language as it was spoken by Joseph Smith. My questions to others are more a result of furthering discussion and trying to understand their point, and questions which come to my mind as a result of their statements.

I appreciate this thought pertaining to spirit prison and paradise. Surely, people who find themselves in paradise have an advantage over those who find themselves in spirit prison. Thank you for this thought.

If we want to take the final judgement as the world to come then we still can use the statement. Someone that gets Terrestrial has (presumably) and advantage over someone that gets Telestrial, someone that gets Celestial could be seen as having an advantage over someone in the other two. And someone that gain exaltation could be seen as having an advantage over someone that does not.

I would agree with this and this is similar as you have shared between prison and paradise. Each kindgom has an advantage over the other kingdom.

This is part of my thoughts, is the distinction (advantage) between kingdoms then, but between exalted sons and daughters is there any advantage to the greater intelligence they gain?

I would assume there isn't any advantage between exalted beings.

It kind of breaks down at exaltation given that we are suppose to be equal... but maybe not...What if final judgement is God saying 'you will be' exalted? Based on what we've become and knowing that we will finish... but we will still have to finish everything? And some might be closer then other based on what has happened before. Thus one exalted being could be said to have an advantage over another exalted being simply by having been at it longer?

This thought is in-line with my other thought, as to whether or not one is closer to exaltation through their knowledge.

Your example at the end, maybe those who lived before Christ were resurrected, they have been living their life longer than you or I, could they possibly have the advantage because they have been at it longer?

Thank you.

[Anddenex]

I think you have missed the point - Truth is an advantage. I am a little dumfounded with many posts that seem to believe or hope that some ignorance (according to some distortion the philosophy of Cool Hand Luke or something) is the real advantage or short short cut to divine intelligence - but I do not believe it?

Truth is the advantage. I understood this point as specified. I don't remember any post mentioning some for of ignorance is an advantage, or a short cut to divine intelligence, but maybe I am misunderstanding your statement here.

In your understanding Traveler, than is truth an advantage when comparing to two exalted beings? If one exalted being has disciplined themselves to know more truths than their brother or sister, in your assessment of truth and advantage, do they have an advantage?

It is my understanding that there is only one way and that it would be intelligent to employ that way - and that one way is directly related to truth. (See John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)

If one does not know the truth - it is impossible to know Christ. If one comes to know the truth - they will know Christ. Why try to separate the two?

We share a similar understanding then. I am not sure if your last question is specifying that I am trying to separate the two, or if this is a general inquiry?

Yes, to know Christ is to know truth. I agree with this. As I mention, John 17: 3, eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ. Eternal life is to know truth.

Thank you for your thoughts.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Good Afternoon Anddenex and SeminarySnoozer!

Where can I find where the church teaches the doctrine expressed in the above quotes? Particularly, where do we learn that we knew everything in pefection in our pre-mortal life? Or, where can I find where the church teaches the doctrine that our spirits (or at least SeminarySnoozer's spirit) knows all of the laws of physics, math, biology, etc. prior to earth life?

Regards,

Finrock

Finrock, Are you calling my spirit dumb? (just kidding)

You tell me how much we could learn in the presence of God without a veil, receiving direct knowledge from God, pure truth, for thousands if not millions of years. I can tell you it is more than any one person has ever learned in this world while living here under 100 years. Therefore, my spirit definitely knows more than any man has ever learned. And I believe all of that secular learning will come back to me when the veil is lifted, i.e. - after the second estate test is over. In Gospel Principles it says that our spirits were mature, and we learn in other teachings that we learned as much as we could without going any further in our development to become like God, we didn't have a body. Some of us even helped make this world which probably took a little calculus, physics, biology, environmental science, etc.

Also, I hate to break the news to you but we are "fallen". The word fallen usually implies a 'lower' status, not a higher one. We cannot lift ourselves up to where we were by ourselves, we need a savior to do that. In other words, we cannot 'learn' our way back to where we were. Upon resurrection we move higher than where we were but that also includes the lifting of the veil and receiving a glorified body. My spiritual learning alone here will not spring me past where I was before by myself. As a fallen spirit I require a Savior to do that.