a deeply troubling quote from E McConkie

[antispatula]

I was reading about having your calling and your election made sure (after you have been promised Eternal Life) and came across this quote in the D&C student manual. So you know the context, this paragraph discusses the question "what happens if someone has his calling and election made sure, and then they live a sinful life (without commiting any unpardonable sins) and never repent before they die? Are they still promised Exaltation?

“But suppose such persons become disaffected and the spirit of repentance leaves them—which is a seldom and an almost unheard of eventuality—still, what then? The answer is—and the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith so recite!—they must then pay the penalty of their own sins, for the blood of Christ will not cleanse them. Or if they commit murder or adultery, they lose their promised inheritance because these sins are exempt from the sealing promises. Or if they commit the unpardonable sin, they become sons of perdition.” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:342–43.)

Thoughts? It seems horrifyingly contradictory within a gospel viewpoint that one could get to a point where God essentially says "Ok, I promise you Eternal Life, and as long as you don't commit an unpardonable sin, you can live as sinfully as you want and you will still eventually be exalted."

[tubaloth]

I probably thought this at once. But lets do a review of the three kingdoms.

Celestial Kingdom are those that follow Heavenly Father (keep his laws). Do what is required and gain Exaltation (Because of Christ)

The Terrestrial Kingdom are those that knew at some point Christ and the Gospel. They knew how to repent but didn't in mortal life. They do get a second chance in post mortal life and they then acceptance the gospel and repent. This is for people that knew the Gospel but rejected it. These do gain forgiveness through Christ. They finally accept the atonement.

Telestial Kingdom -- Is for those that have had the Gospel explained to them (most likely here on this life and in the next life) but still did not want the Atonement. They don't want any part of Christ, Heavenly Father, or salvation. (Its hard believe there will be people like this).

These people are Resurrected last! They are actually cast into outer darkness to suffer. After they have suffered they get the Telestial Kingdom.

Nobody can meet the demands of God's law, except a God. These people are not paying the price of Celestial Law because nobody can do that (except for Christ). They paying the price of a Telestial Law. As we don't know ratio between laws, we just know that these people are able to suffer this, and because they suffer they are allowed the Telestial Kingdom. (There is an end to there suffering so to speak).

Now we get to those in Outer Darkness that Elder McConkie is speaking about. These are the ones that have seen the light, I mean seen it! To the degree they there is no doubt! They then reject this light and even turn against it. They are the ones that will stay in outer darkness forever. They can't be forgiving because there is no forgiveness for breaking this law.

I don't see your problem when we understand how the kingdoms work. I don't see that from Elder McConkies quote. I don't see anything in his quote about gaining Salvation or Celestial Glory?

[Wingnut]

The Lord doesn't just randomly make callings and elections sure. If and when he does, it is usually someone who is already well on his/her way to exaltation, and the type of person that the Lord trusts to continue making righteous choices.

[Guest]

The Lord doesn't just randomly make callings and elections sure. If and when he does, it is usually someone who is already well on his/her way to exaltation, and the type of person that the Lord trusts to continue making righteous choices.

And despite some recent opinions here, it's not a necessary part of a "successful" mortality.

[Wingnut]

And despite some recent opinions here, it's not a necessary part of a "successful" mortality.

I think that if it was, there would likely be precious few who experienced success during their mortality.

[dahlia]

What is an 'election made sure'?

[Just_A_Guy]

Here's the entry from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.

[skalenfehl]

David is an example. After receiving his promise, he sinned by taking Bathsheba and committing adultery. Had he not sinned by sending her husband, Uriah, into the battlefield, to die a certain death, this act of murder, he would have had a chance to repent of adultery. But he forfeited his place with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, etc. It is a very difficult road back into a good standing before the Lord once we have obtained the more sure word of promise, but it is possible under certain conditions.

[HiJolly]

I recommend that none of us make assumptions about all this. There is the temple ordinance which in Joseph Smith's day was called the Second Anointing. He taught those that received it much, some of which can be read about in their journals, if you look up the journals of the members of the Quorum of the Anointed.

Today this ordinance does not exist exactly as it did back then, and the Church has changed the name of the ordinance to "Special Temple Blessings" -- which could potentially refer to various things, not just the traditional Second Anointing. And I do hear that it is rare to receive it, but more likely than back in the mid 1900's. And I agree that it is not essential to our exaltation to receive it in this life.

Then there's the whole physical ordinance vs. the spiritual fulfillment. And you never know whether the first may follow the second rather than the other way around.

Can you imagine the Comfort to know that God has claimed you as His own? This is the work of the Second Comforter. :)

[james12]

I was reading about having your calling and your election made sure (after you have been promised Eternal Life) and came across this quote in the D&C student manual. So you know the context, this paragraph discusses the question "what happens if someone has his calling and election made sure, and then they live a sinful life (without committing any unpardonable sins) and never repent before they die? Are they still promised Exaltation?

I believe there is some misunderstanding regarding forgiveness of sins after having received your calling and election. It worries me that we Saints will not seek this blessing because of these misunderstandings. So let me see if I can refer to the same section you are reading and let you know how I interpret it.

First the section in the D&C student manual asks the following question:

What if those whose calling and election has been made sure thereafter commit grievous sins? Suppose they backslide and walk in the ways of wickedness? Or fight the truth and rebel against God—what then?

Everyone commits sin, it is part of human nature. Those who have received their C&E are no different (see 2 Ne 4:16-35). The real question has to do with those who "commit grievous" sin, or "fight the truth". These are they that rebel against God after having received the more sure word.

“But suppose such persons become disaffected and the spirit of repentance leaves them—which is a seldom and an almost unheard of eventuality—still, what then? The answer is—and the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith so recite!—they must then pay the penalty of their own sins, for the blood of Christ will not cleanse them. Or if they commit murder or adultery, they lose their promised inheritance because these sins are exempt from the sealing promises. Or if they commit the unpardonable sin, they become sons of perdition.” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:342–43.)

This quote by Elder McConkie is the concluding statement. It is important to understand what he said before this quote. Of repentance for those who have received their C&E he says:

...what of sins committed after being sealed up into eternal life?

“Obviously the laws of repentance still apply, and the more enlightened a person is, the more he seeks the gift of repentance, and the harder he strives to free himself from sin as often as he falls short of the divine will and becomes subject in any degree to the Master of Sin who is Lucifer. It follows that the sins of the godfearing and the righteous are continually remitted because they repent and seek the Lord anew every day and every hour.

“And as a matter of fact, the added blessing of having one’s calling and election made sure is itself an encouragement to avoid sin and a hedge against its further commission. By that long course of obedience and trial which enabled them to gain so great a blessing the sanctified saints have charted a course and developed a pattern of living which avoids sin and encourages righteousness.

As Elder McConkie states, the laws of repentance still apply. In fact, these people have added encouragement to avoid sin since they have received the promise.

Now after all this Elder McConkie takes up the case of those who have committed grievous sins (murder, adultery, and the sin against the Holy Ghost). He says this is almost an unheard of eventuality. These few have lost the spirit of repentance. It is these people who must suffer for their own sins and lose the promise.

Thoughts? It seems horrifyingly contradictory within a gospel viewpoint that one could get to a point where God essentially says "Ok, I promise you Eternal Life, and as long as you don't commit an unpardonable sin, you can live as sinfully as you want and you will still eventually be exalted."

It should not be supposed that because the Lord has promised eternal life that an individuals work is done. Far from it. In fact I might argue that it has just begun! A person must still work righteousness and repent and continue to grow in light and truth. Such a person is not cut off from repentance, if such were the case no one would seek the promise.

Moreover, to recieve the promise is not to receive the blessing. As always, one who continues in sin will not be exalted. Whether in this life or the next a person who has received the promise must still cleanse himself through the blood of the Lamb, "For no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of Heaven". We saints must stop viewing promises as tickets to Heaven. They are not, and never will be. Whether promises recieved at baptisim, anointings, the endowment, sealing, or C&E. Many in the scriptures committed this folly from the children of Moses, to the Pharisees, and those in Book of Mormon times and little good it did them. A promise is confirmation of righteous living and wonderful encouragement to move onward but it gives no free entrance into the kingdom.

[skalenfehl]

Great posts, HiJolly and James 12. Indeed. We are to continue progressing. There are more than four principles and ordinances of the gospel and wonderful blessings are given to us when we obey the laws and covenants pertaining to those principles and ordinances. Our Father in heaven wants to give us so much more than we can begin to comprehend. We may feel inadequate to ask Him for important blessings when He desires to give us great treasures.

We must learn line upon line and precept upon precept. The Lord is eager to give us more and draw as near to us as we desire to draw near to Him. He stands at the door waiting with open arms. It is not audacious to desire what He already has in store for us. But He will never give us more light and knowledge than we can bear. We do not need to fear greater things, but we have been exhorted throughout scriptural history to seek them. Don't be surprised if one day while in mortality or hereafter we ask ourselves why we ever hesitated.

[Blackmarch]

I was reading about having your calling and your election made sure (after you have been promised Eternal Life) and came across this quote in the D&C student manual. So you know the context, this paragraph discusses the question "what happens if someone has his calling and election made sure, and then they live a sinful life (without commiting any unpardonable sins) and never repent before they die? Are they still promised Exaltation?

“But suppose such persons become disaffected and the spirit of repentance leaves them—which is a seldom and an almost unheard of eventuality—still, what then? The answer is—and the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith so recite!—they must then pay the penalty of their own sins, for the blood of Christ will not cleanse them. Or if they commit murder or adultery, they lose their promised inheritance because these sins are exempt from the sealing promises. Or if they commit the unpardonable sin, they become sons of perdition.” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:342–43.)

Thoughts? It seems horrifyingly contradictory within a gospel viewpoint that one could get to a point where God essentially says "Ok, I promise you Eternal Life, and as long as you don't commit an unpardonable sin, you can live as sinfully as you want and you will still eventually be exalted."

The unrepentant will not be cleansed, for they accept not christ. Being permanently unrepentant will have the same result as committing the unpardonable sin.

[rameumptom]

I take many things which Elder McConkie said decades ago with a grain of salt. The manual you reference is in dire need of updating and refinement, as more recent revelations and teachings do not necessarily agree with everything Elder McConkie wrote back then. Several other manuals that have been updated (such as Gospel Principles) have tended to replace most (if not all) of Elder McConkie's quotes with more recent GA quotes, often giving us a different nuance on the topic.

For the time period he lived in, he attempted to explain the gospel teachings to the best of his ability. With newer revelations that often change or at least update previous beliefs and understandings on gospel topics, we should remember that manuals from the Church are not equal to doctrine, the scriptures, or the current teachings given in General Conference.

[mnn727]

I have a real issue with 'making ones callings and elections sure' when President Faust started almost every GC talk with a statement about praying he would be able endure to the end.

I really don't know of anyone who was closer to being like Christ than President Faust was.

[Guest gopecon]

Having one's calling and election made sure is not something that one publicizes to the world. Very few instances have ever been recorded. For one, the message comes directly from the Lord. He would not say this to someone who He did not know was faithful - and would remain so. The blessing does not come with any specific callings or assignments, it comes to a very select few who the Lord has tested and proven faithful.

[prisonchaplain]

I was reading about having your calling and your election made sure (after you have been promised Eternal Life) and came across this quote in the D&C student manual. So you know the context, this paragraph discusses the question "what happens if someone has his calling and election made sure, and then they live a sinful life (without commiting any unpardonable sins) and never repent before they die? Are they still promised Exaltation?

“But suppose such persons become disaffected and the spirit of repentance leaves them—which is a seldom and an almost unheard of eventuality—still, what then? The answer is—and the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith so recite!—they must then pay the penalty of their own sins, for the blood of Christ will not cleanse them. Or if they commit murder or adultery, they lose their promised inheritance because these sins are exempt from the sealing promises. Or if they commit the unpardonable sin, they become sons of perdition.” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:342–43.)

Thoughts? It seems horrifyingly contradictory within a gospel viewpoint that one could get to a point where God essentially says "Ok, I promise you Eternal Life, and as long as you don't commit an unpardonable sin, you can live as sinfully as you want and you will still eventually be exalted."

If I understand correctly, I agree with the commentary. If a Christian has received an anointing of the Holy Spirit that brings assurance of salvation and holiness (some would call this an experience of the gift of sanctification), and then rejects the faith and walks away from God and his people, then that one has likely blasphemed the Holy Spirit. There would be no forgiveness or salvation for that soul.

[Vort]

Not sure I understand why anyone would be "deeply troubled" by a doctrine describing a state well above where 99.99% of us toil.

One day, in this life or the next, we must have our calling and election made sure. But that is a bridge we can cross when we come to it. Until then, it's a waste of time to worry about the ifs, ands, or buts.

Fwiw, I can't imagine that someone who has so totally devoted himself/herself to God and remade his/her personality in Christ's image so as to have his/her calling and election made sure would then be likely to run out and fornicate with his/her neighbor or blow someone's head off, so it's largely a moot point anyway.

[Anddenex]

I have a real issue with 'making ones callings and elections sure' when President Faust started almost every GC talk with a statement about praying he would be able endure to the end.

I really don't know of anyone who was closer to being like Christ than President Faust was.

Even those who have received a "calling and election made sure" still must endure. Once received doesn't dictate they are immune to human error or weakness.

[MrShorty]

As Vort said, I will never have a chance to find these things out for myself. One question on this, if I may.

Even those who have received a "calling and election made sure" still must endure.

(not picking on your post specifically, Anddenex, because several others have made a similar statement). If those who have their calling and election made sure still need to endure to the end, then what is the real significance of having one's calling and election made sure? Haven't all of us been given the same promise? To paraphrase 2 Ne 31 (vs 19 and 20 in particular) - we exercise faith in Christ, relying solely on his merits for salvation, enter in at the strait and narrow gate through baptism. Then, if we press forward and endure to the end, the Father says we shall have eternal life. If this is really the case, it seems that having one's calling and election made sure is simply a reaffirmation of this promise made to all of us.

[Vort]

As Vort said, I will never have a chance to find these things out for myself.

Ah, but you will. Some day, each who will inherit celestial glory will have that blessing confirmed and made sure, even before the reception. It may not happen in this life, but happen it must, if you are to be exalted. And since that is the blessing we are explicitly promised in the temple, I take is very literally.

[skalenfehl]

The blessing of having our "judgment" advanced is a beautiful one, which is also given based on our desires to obtain it and on our works to labor in Zion. We are a self selecting people, regardless of faith or religion (although receiving authorized ordinances such as baptism do matter). For this reason, the Lord has said that we will be judged "according to our works, according to the desires of our hearts". (D&C 137:9)

It isn't a random thing, but rather something that comes to those who have completely put Babylon behind them; who have no more worldly desires; who have developed an eye single to the glory of God and who magnify their priesthood and their callings and serve with all their heart, might, mind and strength. These are the wise virgins whose lamps fill ceaselessly. Not everyone has these desires, but those who do are those who have experienced that mighty change of heart, which Alma describes to the people of Zarahemla. it is an indicator that we are pressing forward in the right direction. These are they who are not likely to stumble and sin as before because they pray always and do not faint, that they enter into temptation. They no longer allow their weaknesses to be a factor because they have been made strong by the Spirit because of their desires.

And in the Lord's own due time, after having proved them in every thing, sees fit to make His abode with them and the Father makes His abode with them. In other words, they receive the Savior as their Second Comforter. By this time, they have endured the lonely path with such patience and longsuffering that they need this greater comforting.

[Anddenex]

One question on this, if I may. (not picking on your post specifically, Anddenex, because several others have made a similar statement).

No worries I don't feel you are picking on me, just using my comment as a springboard to your question.

If those who have their calling and election made sure still need to endure to the end, then what is the real significance of having one's calling and election made sure?

I believe you are misunderstanding the concept of what a Calling and Election made sure is. A calling and election made sure is the Lord declaring that if you continue as you are, you will be saved. It isn't the Lord declaring, "your saved, don't worry about being good anymore." We still must continue in the path that resulted in our Calling and Election made sure.

Haven't all of us been given the same promise? To paraphrase 2 Ne 31 (vs 19 and 20 in particular) - we exercise faith in Christ, relying solely on his merits for salvation, enter in at the strait and narrow gate through baptism. Then, if we press forward and endure to the end, the Father says we shall have eternal life. If this is really the case, it seems that having one's calling and election made sure is simply a reaffirmation of this promise made to all of us.

Indeed we have, we either have the promise through "faith in the Lord's words" via scripture, or we can actually hear from the Lord himself declaring our salvation is sure.

As for me, I would rather die knowing from the Lord that I am saved, if I continue in the path that resulted in the Lord visiting me, rather than having faith in the eternal blessing.

The main difference is knowledge versus faith. I would rather know, receive a perfect knowledge of my salvation, personally speaking.

[skalenfehl]

The main difference is knowledge versus faith. I would rather know, receive a perfect knowledge of my salvation, personally speaking.

Enos 1

26 And I saw that I must soon go down to my grave, having been wrought upon by the power of God that I must preach and prophesy unto this people, and declare the word according to the truth which is in Christ. And I have declared it in all my days, and have rejoiced in it above that of the world.

27 And I soon go to the place of my rest, which is with my Redeemer; for I know that in him I shall rest. And I rejoice in the day when my mortal shall put on immortality, and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face with pleasure, and he will say unto me: Come unto me, ye blessed, there is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father. Amen.

Ether 3

19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.

Ether 4

13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.

15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

etc

etc

[james12]

As Vort said, I will never have a chance to find these things out for myself. One question on this, if I may. (not picking on your post specifically, Anddenex, because several others have made a similar statement). If those who have their calling and election made sure still need to endure to the end, then what is the real significance of having one's calling and election made sure? Haven't all of us been given the same promise? To paraphrase 2 Ne 31 (vs 19 and 20 in particular) - we exercise faith in Christ, relying solely on his merits for salvation, enter in at the strait and narrow gate through baptism. Then, if we press forward and endure to the end, the Father says we shall have eternal life. If this is really the case, it seems that having one's calling and election made sure is simply a reaffirmation of this promise made to all of us.

2 Ne 31:19-20 is not referring to promises received simply because one is baptized by water. Rather one must first truly repent and receive the baptism of fire. Then, is one the path, not before. "Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works" (D&C 22:2). But still the promise may not yet be given. After one has gotten into this strait and narrow path he must continue to walk in it trusting Christ and then after he has proven himself he may receive his calling and election made sure, wherein the Lord confirms, "Ye shall have eternal life." For many this process takes a lifetime, and beyond. It is no small matter.

Of what value then is the promise of eternal life?

An actual knowledge to any person, that the course of life which he pursues is according to the will of God, is essentially necessary to enable him to have that confidence in God without which no person can obtain eternal life. It was this that enabled the ancient saints to endure all their afflictions and persecutions, and to take joyfully the spoiling of their goods, knowing (not believing merely) that they had a more enduring substance (Heb. 10:34) (Lectures on Faith, Lecture Sixth, p 67)

It is not enough simply to believe, unless one knows the course he is following is according to the will of God he will became lax in his faith when severe challanges come. One must know for himself or herself that they are sealed up unto eternal life and the only sure way to know is to have it revealed from the Heavens. By this knowledge and this knowledge alone can one endure the trials required to gain eternal life.

[Vort]

I believe you are misunderstanding the concept of what a Calling and Election made sure is. A calling and election made sure is the Lord declaring that if you continue as you are, you will be saved. It isn't the Lord declaring, "your saved, don't worry about being good anymore." We still must continue in the path that resulted in our Calling and Election made sure.

Furthermore, it doesn't even make sense to suppose someone at that spiritual level would be particularly prone to great evil. Wickedness never was happiness. Those who have tasted the joy of the Lord and have received the promise of eternal life would know far better than anyone else just how miserable their lives would be if they turned away.