Hugo Chávez - A Great Loss to the Poor

[NightSG]

In light of this topic I found this discussion facinating

Freemen and King-men in the Book of Mormon

More recently:

Human beings we may be assured will generally exercise power when they can get it and they will exercise it most undoubtedly in popular governments under pretences of public safety or high public interest. It may be very possible that good intentions do really sometimes exist when constitutional restraints are disregarded. There are men in all ages who mean to exercise power usefully but who mean to exercise it. They mean to govern well but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters but they mean to be masters. They think there need be but little restraint upon themselves. Their notion of the public interest is apt to be quite closely connected with their own exercise of authority. They may not indeed always understand their own motives. The love of power may sink too deep in their own hearts even for their own scrutiny and may pass with themselves for mere patriotism and benevolence.

[MorningStar]

You hit the nail on the head! Imagine how great the U.S. would be if we were more like France. I believe I heard a report on the cell phone industry in France. It's a law that there must be competition, so there are around thirty companies or more competing for peoples cell phone business and that results in extremely low prices for cell phone service. Now compare that to corrupt America where people are fed propaganda that they must have a cell phone because they are "cool" and they must pay a big chunk of their paycheck on those phone bills.

Yeah, I'll take a lot of France and Germany any day of the week.

I don't have a cell phone. I'm uncool and proud. You could try not being cool like me or you could move to one of those places. Tell me how you like the taxes there.

[pam]

You hit the nail on the head! Imagine how great the U.S. would be if we were more like France. I believe I heard a report on the cell phone industry in France. It's a law that there must be competition, so there are around thirty companies or more competing for peoples cell phone business and that results in extremely low prices for cell phone service. Now compare that to corrupt America where people are fed propaganda that they must have a cell phone because they are "cool" and they must pay a big chunk of their paycheck on those phone bills.

Yeah, I'll take a lot of France and Germany any day of the week.

And you think there is no competition here? Do you think the only companies in the US that provide cell phone service are the 4-5 major companies? If that's true..I must seriously be dreaming about the ads that I constantly see for cell phone service from numerous other companies on tv.

Also where is this propaganda we are being fed stating that we have to have a cell phone to be cool? I guess I've missed that part.

[pam]

Did you start this thread for the sole agenda to diss the US again? Because that's what I'm getting out of this.

[HoosierGuy]

Did you start this thread for the sole agenda to diss the US again? Because that's what I'm getting out of this.

Not really. But I guess I did want to make the point that Chavez seemed to fight the good fight and that's the kind of fight we need in the U.S. Also it's really sad to see so much hate thrown upon

him so easily by people in the U.S. and oil companies.

I'm glad to see there are many Hugo Chavez shirts on ebay for sale.

[Backroads]

Not really. But I guess I did want to make the point that Chavez seemed to fight the good fight and that's the kind of fight we need in the U.S. Also it's really sad to see so much hate thrown upon

him so easily by people in the U.S. and oil companies.

I'm glad to see there are many Hugo Chavez shirts on ebay for sale.

I have no moral qualms about hating someone that has caused so much death and chaos as this man.

All I can take from your opinion is that you support someone who does. And I"m afraid it doesn't leave me thinking very highly of you or your morals.

[selek]

Not really. But I guess I did want to make the point that Chavez seemed to fight the good fight and that's the kind of fight we need in the U.S. Also it's really sad to see so much hate thrown upon

him so easily by people in the U.S. and oil companies.

I'm glad to see there are many Hugo Chavez shirts on ebay for sale.

Yep. Right next to the Che Guevarra icons.

No matter that both men were steeped in blood to their elbows- their ideology was pure- and so you give them a pass.

But didn't a great man (at least in your pantheon of saints) once say, "You can't make omelettes without breaking a few eggs"?

[Windseeker]

Not really. But I guess I did want to make the point that Chavez seemed to fight the good fight and that's the kind of fight we need in the U.S. Also it's really sad to see so much hate thrown upon

him so easily by people in the U.S. and oil companies.

I'm glad to see there are many Hugo Chavez shirts on ebay for sale.

What exactly does it mean to fight the good fight?

I was raised with a healthy dose of class envy I suppose, but I'd be a fool to not see how these "champions of the poor" ride on the backs of the miserable to power. Then once in power, bar the path to freedom and prosperity driven by ego, selfishness, greed and gluttony.

[Saldrin]

I think in stead of shirts they should sell Hugo Chavez toilet paper...

[prisonchaplain]

Not really. But I guess I did want to make the point that Chavez seemed to fight the good fight and that's the kind of fight we need in the U.S. Also it's really sad to see so much hate thrown upon

him so easily by people in the U.S. and oil companies.

I'm glad to see there are many Hugo Chavez shirts on ebay for sale.

OK, I'll bite. Why was it good for Chavez to steal the property of the oil companies? Why is it okay to take from the rich and give to the poor? Why are those same oil companies that had their equipment and infrastructure confiscated by Chavez expected to have good feelings towards him?

Jesus loved the poor. He commanded us to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. So much of his ministry was about healing the sick. However, he did not take the Pharisees money to help the poor. He did not confiscate money from the rich young man (he asked him for it, and let him go when he refused).

Help me understand why Chavez should be appreciated by Americans...and do tell us if you got one of those Ebay t-shirts.

[Just_A_Guy]

Graft is illegal. That is a big problem. Immoral needs to be changed so change it. Elect people that you believe will enact moral laws.

But graft need not be illegal--and indeed won't be, if the majority of elected official sanction it. Your assertion seems basically to come down to "might makes right".

My 'argument' in no way encourages illegal and immoral acts . . .

I regretfully disagree. It allows government officials to continue their bad behavior and consolidate their power and continue to engage in bad behavior, by giving them intellectual cover for the idea expressed by Louis XIV as "L'état, c'est moi".

. . . unless you believe the system we use of electing officials is a bad one. It does encourage public participation in telling our politicians what they need to do.

Not "bad" per se; but as has (incorrectly) been attributed to de Tocqueville, it becomes immensely problematic once the people figure out that as a voting bloc, they can pretty much bribe themselves with the public purse.

[annewandering]

But graft need not be illegal--and indeed won't be, if the majority of elected official sanction it. Your assertion seems basically to come down to "might makes right".

I regretfully disagree. It allows government officials to continue their bad behavior and consolidate their power and continue to engage in bad behavior, by giving them intellectual cover for the idea expressed by Louis XIV as "L'état, c'est moi".

Not "bad" per se; but as has (incorrectly) been attributed to de Tocqueville, it becomes immensely problematic once the people figure out that as a voting bloc, they can pretty much bribe themselves with the public purse.

I believe in this country and I believe in the voting process. Sorry you dont.

[pam]

I believe in this country and I believe in the voting process. Sorry you dont.

Whoaaaa hold on.. JAG never said he didn't believe in this country or in the voting process. What I got was he saw some things that could be problematic. That was kind of a low blow.

[Just_A_Guy]

I believe in this country and I believe in the voting process. Sorry you dont.

That's not the half of it. I also eat children and torture small animals in my spare time.

Oh, and I also hate Mom, baseball, and apple pie.

(No, not really.)

[annewandering]

That's not the half of it. I also eat children and torture small animals in my spare time.

Oh, and I also hate Mom, baseball, and apple pie.

(No, not really.)

I only know what you say here. You expressed doubt as to whether voting makes any difference so I am taking you at your word.

[Just_A_Guy]

I only know what you say here. You expressed doubt as to whether voting makes any difference so I am taking you at your word.

Did I? Where?

[annewandering]

Surely by implication. I am not in the mood for arguing today. Another time perhaps!

[Guest]

If you don't want to argue, why start an argument?

[annewandering]

This is an interesting argument. I understand the philosophical basis behind it, but it begs the question: Is there such a thing as an immoral use of public funds, provided they are administered by duly elected officials?

I venture to guess you thought the no-bid contracts awarded to KBR and Halliburton, completely abhorrent. But given the argument you present above, what's the problem with a little graft by public officials?

Seriously, Eowyn? He pulled these out of the air and continued from there. Believe as you will.

[Guest]

Accusing someone of not believing in the American voting process, while discussing Venezuelan government? That's pulling something out of the air. Insulting someone's sense of patriotism and then running when it blows up in your face? Dirty pool.

[HoosierGuy]

OK, I'll bite. Why was it good for Chavez to steal the property of the oil companies? Why is it okay to take from the rich and give to the poor? Why are those same oil companies that had their equipment and infrastructure confiscated by Chavez expected to have good feelings towards him?

Because the oil companies are corrupt. Wall Street is corrupt. Big world business is corrupt.

[MorningStar]

Because the oil companies are corrupt. Wall Street is corrupt. Big world business is corrupt.

Chavez was corrupt.

[Vort]

Because the oil companies are corrupt. Wall Street is corrupt. Big world business is corrupt.

And we all know the Savior approved of theft, as long as you're stealing from people you think are corrupt. Like HoosierGuy, perhaps. If you think he's corrupt, steal from him. It's okay.

[pam]

Because the oil companies are corrupt. Wall Street is corrupt. Big world business is corrupt.

I'm kind of curious what you think about a large business such as Hobby Lobby which is owned by staunch Christians and treat it as a Christian based business. Closed Sundays to allow their employees to worship. Close early to allow their employees to spend time with families. What is your take on a business like this?

[Mahone]

Missionaries from the US were taken out of Venezuela during Chavez's time...because it was no longer safe for them

One of my old companions told me she was trying to get out and go to Spain...and then wait the many years it would take to get a visa to come to the US. She felt she needed to go to Spain because is she waited she might not be allowed to leave Venezuela. She's not rich.

I'm glad Chavez is gone.

According to at least two sources, they weren't removed because they were in danger per se, but because the church was having a lot of difficultly in getting visas renewed - Chavez ultimately wanted them out of the country because he suspected some missionaries of being spies for the United States.

LDS missionaries evacuate Venezuela | Deseret News

It's no secret that Chavez disliked the USA for various reasons, which probably helped him get reelected - many people outside of the USA have a rather bitter taste in their mouth when the USA is mentioned, so someone in a position of power willing to speak out so publicly against them naturally gains followers.

Of course that also has the side effect of sustaining a dislike of him from those within the US, which is demonstrable from the small group of Americans on this board. Those within Venezuela and living directly with all of the effects of his rule had a considerably more mixed point of view, proven by the election results.

As for my opinion, I don't claim to know enough about the man or country to really hold a valid one. I do think that there are other leaders in this world that are far more worthy of my dislike, though.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Mahone