Woman Praying in Conferance

[Anddenex]

You must not have faith in your own leadership to trust that they were the ones that made the decision. You think your own leadership is so weak that they caved into “various groups publicizing their complaints.” If the spokesman for the LDS church was correct that the decision was made before the campaign started, then you should be happy that there is such unity and accord between leadership and members. Or are you just upset because these members happened to be women? Women who were confident in the love of their leaders for them, they were able to ask with thoughtfulness if something as simple as prayer could be offered by a woman. It seems so strange that something as wonderful as prayer can be looked upon as something bitter. Maybe it’s just perception, those that perceive the campaign as wrong, see the outcome also as wrong. What a shame. Your leaders made the choice to ask two women to pray. It might not seem like a big deal, but it seems the bigger deal is how some of the members are responding to their leaders’ decision. I would think if you didn’t like the outcome, then you may be the ones who aren’t sustaining your leaders.

M.

I think you need to read Estradlings response a little closer. Your opening response is pretty apparent you either didn't read his response, or didn't care to actually read what he was actually saying.

[Suzie]

Talking about quotes, *not official yet* the words of President Uchtdorf as recorded by Three Notes on President Uchtdorf (and His Wonderful Priesthood Session Sermon) – By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

Sometimes we confuse differences in personality with sin. We can even make the mistake of thinking that because someone is different from us, it must mean they are not pleasing to God. This line of thinking leads us to believe that the Church wants to create every member from a single mold–that each one should look, feel, think, and behave like every other. This would contradict the genius of God….

It also contradicts the intent and purposes of the Church of Jesus Christ, which acknowledges and protects the moral agency–with all its for-reaching consequences–of each and every one of God’s children.

A disciples of Jesus Christ, we are united in our testimony of the restored gospel and our commitment to keep God’s commandments.

But we are diverse in our social, cultural, and political preferences. The Church thrives when we take advantage of this diversity and encourage each other to develop and use our talents to lift and strengthen our fellow disciples.

[selek]

I think you need to read Estradlings response a little closer. Your opening response is pretty apparent you either didn't read his response, or didn't care to actually read what he was actually saying.

Now, now, now, Anddenex-

Why would Maureen trouble to respond to what estradling actually said when it's soooo much easier to just demagogue it?

She has consistently and deliberately misrepresented the arguments made by those who disagree with the agitators and painted us all as sexists and misogynists.

Why should she stray from that tactic during her "victory lap"?

In point of fact, estradlings comments were right on the money: in declaring a victory for the agitators, Babylon is stealing what should have been a moment of spiritual edification and enlightenment.

Like every other affirmative action victim, those struggling within the Church will now wonder whether they received this blessing because they deserved it, or because of tokenism.

Contrary to the myth Maureen is touting, this isn't about faith in the Brethren- this is about agitators polluting a sacred experience with their politics.

Edited April 8, 2013 by selek

[estradling75]

You must not have faith in your own leadership to trust that they were the ones that made the decision. You think your own leadership is so weak that they caved into “various groups publicizing their complaints.” If the spokesman for the LDS church was correct that the decision was made before the campaign started, then you should be happy that there is such unity and accord between leadership and members. Or are you just upset because these members happened to be women? Women who were confident in the love of their leaders for them, they were able to ask with thoughtfulness if something as simple as prayer could be offered by a woman. It seems so strange that something as wonderful as prayer can be looked upon as something bitter. Maybe it’s just perception, those that perceive the campaign as wrong, see the outcome also as wrong. What a shame. Your leaders made the choice to ask two women to pray. It might not seem like a big deal, but it seems the bigger deal is how some of the members are responding to their leaders’ decision. I would think if you didn’t like the outcome, then you may be the ones who aren’t sustaining your leaders.

M.

I will continue the idea of planting a seed to see if I can clear up your gross distortion and misreading of my intent.

Consider for a moment that each member has a garden of faith. No two are exactly the same. Some are strong, some are weak, some are thriving others are wilting. Most have some areas they need more work on. (Examples could be Roles of Women in the Church, Or Are the Church Leaders really called of God, there are much more but those two are relevant)

This weekend a lot of gardens got fed and nourished and strengthen by General Conference. For those looking to strength their 'Role of Women' aspects the prayers and women speakers (and male speakers talking about the roles of women) undoubtedly helped a lot.

However for those that needed help with "Are the Church Leader really called God" the message got interfered with by an outside source. What should have been an chance for them to strengthen by listening and learning from their leaders got thrown a curve ball. A seed of doubt.

For many members this seed of doubt will find no fertile ground or it will quickly be found and rooted out by the gardener. But for those that are already struggling this just adds to their struggles. Maybe they will over come it maybe not. But such an additional trial was totally unnecessary and since very few gardens have only one weakness it might also be in the same garden as one struggling with Role of Women for some.

I was not saying that women saying prayers is bitter. On the contrary if a struggling sister (or brother gender matters not to me) was strengthened by the prayers or any other aspect then I celebrate.

What is bitter is the damage or potential damage done to those who are struggling with "Are the Church Leaders called of God". We can lose those because they don't have the strength to cast out the seed of doubt that was planted by this outside interference.

I am more then happy to join you in celebrating strengthening women... Are you willing to grieve with me over the ones that are going to be lost?

[RipplecutBuddha]

At all? Then that must mean you think missionary work and any humanitarian service is a waste of time.

M.

My mistake, I meant to say that nothing the church does as far as policy-based action and decisions are concerned has any impact on non-members.

As long as we fulfill the doctrinal obligations we have, of course non-members will be impacted, however, the fact that women haven't prayed before in conference has absolutely zero impact whatsoever upon the lives of non-members in any meaningful way beyond those who choose to allow themselves to be offended over such an insignificant part of what the LDS Church does in, and for the world at large

Forgive me for assuming you would understand all my comments were linked to the issue at hand, and that is petty defiance over insignificant aspects of the operation of a world wide church.

Talk about straining at a gnat....

I'm done

Edited April 8, 2013 by RipplecutBuddha

[pam]

The comments on the SL Trib website about the exultation of women over this were just awful. Women of the Church and the Church itself were bashed and made fun of. This didn't do much to raise the reputation of women to folks outside of the church. They just think we're all mindless idiots to get so excited about being able to pray in public. Not great PR. I think the 1600 letter event backfired in this way. Made LDS women look more foolish.

Of course. That's the mentality of the Salt Lake Tribulation and its readers.

[Leah]

I will never understand why people who aren't LDS have such issues with the church (and its members) and feel compelled to spend so much time here and elsewhere..years even... trying to convince others of the supposed flaws of the church and whining for changes.

I can't imagine for myself spending so much time and energy on..say..a Catholic forums doing such.

I wonder...if it is just the LDS forums that are so honored or do the people who feel the compulsion to do this also do it regarding other denominations or faiths? What a waste of time and energy. I have much better things to do in life than run around telling the Catholics or the Baptists or the whatevers how "wrong" they are and list all their faults. (if I even felt that way).

[prisonchaplain]

Leah, the Westboro Baptists once picketed one of our churches because we said that God loves the sinner and hates the sin (they say God hates sinners)...does that count? :-)

Controversial Church to Protest at Oak Creek Assembly of God - Oak Creek, WI Patch

Edited April 9, 2013 by prisonchaplain

[Suzie]

I will never understand why people who aren't LDS have such issues with the church (and its members) and feel compelled to spend so much time here and elsewhere..years even... trying to convince others of the supposed flaws of the church and whining for changes.

I can't imagine for myself spending so much time and energy on..say..a Catholic forums doing such.

I wonder...if it is just the LDS forums that are so honored or do the people who feel the compulsion to do this also do it regarding other denominations or faiths? What a waste of time and energy. I have much better things to do in life than run around telling the Catholics or the Baptists or the whatevers how "wrong" they are and list all their faults. (if I even felt that way).

Understand? Well, in all fairness Leah unless you see yourself as the internet/lds.net police there is nothing really to understand .

[Maureen]

I think you need to read Estradlings response a little closer. Your opening response is pretty apparent you either didn't read his response, or didn't care to actually read what he was actually saying.

I have re-read estradling’s post and I will stick with my response. I understand his post to be saying (and I paraphrase):

If the campaign never happened and the members (sturdy and struggling) did the appropriate things, kept their concerns private and not involve the public, everything would have been hunky-dory, and this lovely situation concerning prayer would have been no big deal to anyone, especially the members. But that is not what happened and the event has now become sullied, etc., etc.

That's how I read and re-read his post.

M.

[selek]

I have re-read estradling’s post and I will stick with my response. I understand his post to be saying (and I paraphrase):

If the campaign never happened and the members (sturdy and struggling) did the appropriate things, kept their concerns private and not involve the public, everything would have been hunky-dory, and this lovely situation concerning prayer would have been no big deal to anyone, especially the members. But that is not what happened and the event has now become sullied, etc., etc.

That's how I read and re-read his post.

M.

There is none so blind as (s)he who will not see.

There are some ideologies that are even more restricting than a burqa- and the modern mantra of perpetual victimhood is one of them.

[Jenamarie]

What is bitter is the damage or potential damage done to those who are struggling with "Are the Church Leaders called of God". We can lose those because they don't have the strength to cast out the seed of doubt that was planted by this outside interference.

I am more then happy to join you in celebrating strengthening women... Are you willing to grieve with me over the ones that are going to be lost?

The only persons I see wondering now if church leaders are "called of God", are those who thought the letter-writers should have been ignored, and now that they see that the Church leadership disagreed with them, they're saying they "caved into pressure", never once thinking if perhaps the leadership listened to the women *because that is the answer they got to their prayers about the situation*.

Is it that shocking and faith shattering that church leaders would listen to those they lead when it comes to matters of policy?

[Leah]

Understand? Well, in all fairness Leah unless you see yourself as the internet/lds.net police there is nothing really to understand .

Ah yes, the time-honored internet tradition of how to handle those you disagree with.. twist their words into a meaning that is in your head and not theirs, and judge them on something they did not say.

[Leah]

Leah, the Westboro Baptists once picketed one of our churches because we said that God loves the sinner and hates the sin (they say God hates sinners)...does that count? :-)

Controversial Church to Protest at Oak Creek Assembly of God - Oak Creek, WI Patch

I know what the Westboro Baptists do. I don't know what it has to do with my comments, other than to illustrate that there are people all over who seem compelled to try to tell others how to run their churches.

[estradling75]

The only persons I see wondering now if church leaders are "called of God", are those who thought the letter-writers should have been ignored, and now that they see that the Church leadership disagreed with them, they're saying they "caved into pressure", never once thinking if perhaps the leadership listened to the women *because that is the answer they got to their prayers about the situation*.

Is it that shocking and faith shattering that church leaders would listen to those they lead when it comes to matters of policy?

Funny... It was a simple yes or no question. And your answer is in essence those that might be lost aren't worth it. An answer that you would've crucified anyone who would have dared given had it been about women losing faith due to lack of prayers

[Jenamarie]

Funny... It was a simple yes or no question. And your answer is in essence those that might be lost aren't worth it. An answer that you would've crucified anyone who would have dared given had it been about women losing faith due to lack of prayers

Talk about putting words in ones mouth. Where in my post did I say those lost weren't worth it?

ETA: and you're a mind reader to know how I would have reacted if a woman hadn't prayed?

Edited April 9, 2013 by Jenamarie

[selek]

The only persons I see wondering now if church leaders are "called of God", are those who thought the letter-writers should have been ignored, and now that they see that the Church leadership disagreed with them, they're saying they "caved into pressure", never once thinking if perhaps the leadership listened to the women *because that is the answer they got to their prayers about the situation*.

Is it that shocking and faith shattering that church leaders would listen to those they lead when it comes to matters of policy?

That's a very ferocious strawman you've decided to beat the stuffing out of...

You go, girl!

[selek]

... to illustrate that there are people all over who seem compelled to try to tell others how to run their churches.

That was what I took away from it.

I also happen to think the comparison is quite apt.

[Jenamarie]

You go, girl!

I'm very tempted to. This board drives the Spirit away more often than it fortifies it for me any more.

ETA: Yes, I realize you're not actually telling me to go. It's just been on my mind a lot lately. The past several months on this board have been highly contentious.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Jenamarie

[estradling75]

Talk about putting words in ones mouth. Where in my post did I say those lost weren't worth it?

I did say in essence.. I am more then happy to find out I misunderstood your intent...

For that to be true are you saying that you are willing to work just as hard to get those that " never once thinking if perhaps the leadership listened to the women *because that is the answer they got to their prayers about the situation*." As you did in supporting the Women praying in General Conference?

If this is true then you have my most humble apologies and I await your efforts in this matter.

If not then stand by the essence of my comment

[prisonchaplain]

I know what the Westboro Baptists do. I don't know what it has to do with my comments, other than to illustrate that there are people all over who seem compelled to try to tell others how to run their churches.

That and my failed attempt at humor...the protests your church experiences at conferences, and now through subtle campaigns, is far more common and intense than the rare and silly protests that Westboro does against my group and others. My tongue was planted firmly in my cheek, but apparently was not very visible.

[Jenamarie]

I did say in essence.. I am more then happy to find out I misunderstood your intent...

For that to be true are you saying that you are willing to work just as hard to get those that " never once thinking if perhaps the leadership listened to the women *because that is the answer they got to their prayers about the situation*." As you did in supporting the Women praying in General Conference?

If this is true then you have my most humble apologies and I await your efforts in this matter.

If not then stand by the essence of my comment

All are worthy of being reached out to, as all are children of God. I've mentioned to one particular person (not here) that was troubled by the "caving in" (their words) that perhaps it wasn't a "caving in", but the result of a prayerful decision. Whether my comment was of help to them or not remains to be seen, as Conference is just barely over, but my experience with this person, and reading comments on the internet here and elsewhere, is that it hasn't been those that *already* had doubts about leadership that have been most bothered by this decision to let women pray, but those who thought they knew how best these women should be dealt with, and yet church leadership seemingly didn't agree with their assessment.

[carlimac]

Is it just rumor then that the prayer givers were already decided on months before the letters were sent?

Even if this isn't true, I don't see our leaders caving on anything- ever. They are too strong for that. I can see it as simple as the leaders saying, " Why not?" and then asking the two sisters to pray. It isn't like the first presidency was beaten down by the pressure. I just can't picture that. I CAN see them smiling at the sincerity and intensity of feeling surrounding something that really isn't such a big deal, kind of like a parent hiding a smile and saying yes to a child who promises to go to bed on time for a whole entire year if they can just get that little toy in the store.

[Dravin]

Thread Closed.