Jamie123 Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 BBC News - Woolwich machete attack leaves man deadOnly one person was actually killed this time (yes I know that's one too many) but the sheer bloodiness of the affair has the whole nation shocked. There was almost nothing else on the news last night or this morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windseeker Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Truly horrific. What surprises me most is how people just stand around talking to these guys. These guys pretty much demonstrated they were dangerous; I don't understand how someone could sit there and film them. I understand some women even shielded the body from these guys when they tried to get pictures. I also heard a Cub Scout leader tried to confront them, have you heard what he was trying to do? So I commend the bravery but I think most Americans would have run away from them...or shot them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Yeah, there are many different ways this news is disturbing.* For many, their only response to violent evil, is to stand there and record it with their iPhone. The willingness of regular passerby to take pictures and even grant interviews.* The quote: "By Allah, we swear by the Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone... ayah in Sura at-Tauba [Chapter 9 of the Koran], many, many ayah [verses] throughout the Koran that [say] we must fight them as they fight us, a eye for a eye and a tooth for a tooth. I apologise that women had to witness this today, but in our land our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments. They don’t care about you. Do you think David Cameron is gonna get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? Do you think the politicians are going to die? No it's going to be average guy, like you."* A news media that refuses to say 'militant Islamic terrorism' despite quotes like that.* The immediate politicization of the issue.* The fact that such an event can occur in one of the major cities of the free world, and go unresponded to by authorities for 15-20 minutes. * Disturbing but not surprising: The number of Islamic organizations not just failing to condemn the attacks, but actually defending and justifying them. Like the Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK ("until our government doesn't stop its violence in the Muslim world, their murders will create more murderers"). Anjem Choudary, founder of al-Muhajiroun (“I think if anyone needs to be condemned it is the British government and their foreign policy. It’s so clear that that is the cause.”). So many others, both UK based elsewhere.There is some positive news: The number of Islamic organizations and mosques who immediately condemned the attacks. ISB ("Justifying this killing in the name of faith or religion is false and rejected."). Muslim Council of Britain ("No cause justifies this murder. A barbaric act that has no basis in Islam and we condemn this unreservedly.") This is an encouraging trend, one which needs to continue and expand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leah Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Truly horrific. What surprises me most is how people just stand around talking to these guys. These guys pretty much demonstrated they were dangerous; I don't understand how someone could sit there and film them. I understand some women even shielded the body from these guys when they tried to get pictures. I also heard a Cub Scout leader tried to confront them, have you heard what he was trying to do? So I commend the bravery but I think most Americans would have run away from them...or shot them.The scout leader was a woman who got off the bus and initially went to the aid of the victim, whom she quickly ascertained was dead.She then tried to engage the attackers, in an effort to keep them distracted and from attacking others. A very brave woman.I don't understand your need to criticize Americans in the discussion of an incident that had nothing to do with America. It's an irrelevant and unwarranted criticism. Especially in light of the recent Boston bombings. There is ample footage of many people running TOWARDS the danger to assist the injured. They had no way of knowing if the attacks were ended, if there were more bombs, etc.And that is merely one example.How very odd to turn a terrorist attack perpetrated by British citizens on British soil into a slam against Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windseeker Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) Hi Leah, I apologize if you feel I was disparaging Americans. I do think there are some cultural differences between us and Britain. Perhaps I didn't put enough time or thought into my comments. They were just what came to my mind as I watched this story. The biggest difference is that we are an armed populace and therefore it's likely that if this occurred out on the street, someone is more likely to have and use the ability to take out the assailants. I find it really strange that people can stand around while this occurs. If someone is clearly beyond help my first thoughts would be for my own safety and I would leave (If I'm not able to protect myself). Standing around filming these armed psychopaths is just really strange to me. But I don't disparage Americans or Britain’s, I realize there have been brutal things filmed in the U.S as well, it's this particular scenario and the reaction when faced with actual terrorists that strikes me as so foreign. Edited May 23, 2013 by Windseeker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I turned on the news and this is what I heard (paraphrased): "The British government is investigating who provided the assailants with weapons"... Uhm... I thought they used knives and meat cleavers. Chances are, they came from the supermarket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windseeker Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I turned on the news and this is what I heard (paraphrased): "The British government is investigating who provided the assailants with weapons"...Uhm... I thought they used knives and meat cleavers. Chances are, they came from the supermarket?They also had a rusty revolver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretchen Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 ... So I commend the bravery but I think most Americans would have run away from them...or shot them.Some Americans would have run. However, I think it is safe to say that no matter where a violent scene takes place, there will always be some who run. It has nothing to do with one's nationality.* The quote: "By Allah, we swear by the Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone... ayah in Sura at-Tauba [Chapter 9 of the Koran], many, many ayah [verses] throughout the Koran that [say] we must fight them as they fight us, a eye for a eye and a tooth for a tooth. I apologise that women had to witness this today, but in our land our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments. They don’t care about you. Do you think David Cameron is gonna get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? Do you think the politicians are going to die? No it's going to be average guy, like you."There is some positive news: The number of Islamic organizations and mosques who immediately condemned the attacks. ISB ("Justifying this killing in the name of faith or religion is false and rejected."). Muslim Council of Britain ("No cause justifies this murder. A barbaric act that has no basis in Islam and we condemn this unreservedly.") This is an encouraging trend, one which needs to continue and expand. Thank you LM. I know several Muslims, and their beliefs are centered around peace, not violence. I know that because many terrorists say they are Muslim many people think that Muslims are crazy. But the truth is, there's crazy people in every religion.I know this may come off as sounding rant-ish, but I can't stand it when people judge harshly because of one's religion. Perhaps it has something to do with having Jewish ancestry, but when I hear about people slamming religions (in general, I'm not suggesting there's any here), I want to tell them all to grow up. Rant over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 My one great caution in this...because I suspect there will be similar incidences in the near future...is not to take a broad brush and paint all of Islam with this evil. It will be tempting to do so. However, that indiscretion will later be used against Christians--and perhaps all who practice a rigorous faith. "militant" "radical" "politicized"--we must use these adjectives to show we know that these terrorists are a small subset--a faction. Again, if we are not careful, others will certainly not be careful with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Amen PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretchen Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 They also had a rusty revolver.Handed down by great-great-grandfather??? (I don't think revolvers are made much anymore... I thought it was mostly pistols... could anyone verify?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windseeker Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 My point is that people SHOULD run away from bloody knife welding armed psychopaths if you don't have the means to stop them or save the victim. I'm not calling anyone a coward.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windseeker Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Handed down by great-great-grandfather??? (I don't think revolvers are made much anymore... I thought it was mostly pistols... could anyone verify?)Yes revolvers are still made produced and popular, revolvers are the most dependable firearm. There is no jamming. So both Police and Citizens some times prefer them over semi-automatics pistols. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretchen Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Thank you Windseeker.PC, you might want to see this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahone Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 * The fact that such an event can occur in one of the major cities of the free world, and go unresponded to by authorities for 15-20 minutes. The Metropolitan Police stated that police were at the scene within 9 minutes of the first 999 call, and armed officers were there within 14 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 There are unarmed police officers in UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahone Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 There are unarmed police officers in UK?Yes. The UK is an entirely different society to the US :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) A few thoughts:First, just to make clear, I'm not condemning any faith. Like PC said, we need the adjectives. These people are Islamic, but that's about as useful as saying they are male, and then drawing conclusions about males. These guys are militant Islamic terrorists. And you can draw conclusions about militant Islamic terrorists.Second, the 'standing around doing nothing' reaction, is more common than we might want to think. It's not a US vs. UK thing - it is a inexperienced/unprepared human vs experienced/prepared human thing. The Stratfor organization talks about 'states of readiness': A spectrum with 'Ready to flee or fight and expecting to decide in the next 2 seconds' on one end, the 'cautious driver looking for hazzards' somewhere in the middle, and 'tuned out watching tv' on the other end. Past that other end, is 'comatose' - where someone (either asleep or awake) simply cannot respond in any meaningful way to what is happening around them.Here's what Col. Jeff Cooper had to say about it: "Many men who are not cowards are simply unprepared for the fact of human savagery. They have not thought about it (incredible as this may appear to anyone who reads the paper or listens to the news) and they just don't know what to do. When they look right into the face of depravity or violence, they are astonished and confounded."It happens. You may be one of these people. I may be one too - the only real way to know, is to find yourself in that situation, and see what you're capable of. I hope that doesn't happen. Keep safe everyone. Edited May 23, 2013 by Loudmouth_Mormon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Yes. The UK is an entirely different society to the US :)Are they entirely unarmed? Or just armed with things like batons, tasers, or pepper spray (aka 'non-lethal' weapons) rather than firearms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Well what we learned today, is that London has unarmed police maybe 9 minutes away, and armed police maybe 14 minutes away. I'm guessing the unarmed police showed up, saw the two armed men not actively involved in killing anyone, and waited for their armed counterparts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 How can the response time be that long? I thought (perhaps this is one of those broad generalizations to which we Yanks are so prone ) that there were cameras on, like, every street corner in London? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 How can the response time be that long? I thought (perhaps this is one of those broad generalizations to which we Yanks are so prone ) that there were cameras on, like, every street corner in London?Cameras aren't boots on the ground, even if communication was perfect and instantaneous the response time is limited by the constraints of getting there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretchen Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Cameras aren't boots on the ground, even if communication was perfect and instantaneous the response time is limited by the constraints of getting there.But.... Don't you have a Tardis on every corner? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipplecutBuddha Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Cameras aren't boots on the ground, even if communication was perfect and instantaneous the response time is limited by the constraints of getting there.At least they'd have beat the pizza guy...Once more, imagine how differently this would have turned out if the soldier had been permitted to carry his own sidearm for personal defense. We need to be allowed to stand up against oppression, however it chooses to reveal itself. We also need to be allowed the best tools available to hold off oppression, up to and including physical assault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningStar Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Maybe the person recording them thought it would help identify them later? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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