Boycott Ender's Game?

[Windseeker]

As Loudmouth pointed out the LGBT have gone a long way from demanding tolerance for their lifestyle to "crushing the opposition through legislation, education, and activism".

In the end they are proving their earlier critics right, they don't seek acceptance but to fundamentally change the definition of families. Lesbian journalist Masha Gessen stated the following

“It’s a no-brainer that (homosexual activists) should have the right to marry, but I also think equally that it’s a no-brainer that the institution of marriage should not exist. …(F)ighting for gay marriage generally involves lying about what we are going to do with marriage when we get there — because we lie that the institution of marriage is not going to change, and that is a lie.

The institution of marriage is going to change, and it should change. And again, I don’t think it should exist. And I don’t like taking part in creating fictions about my life. That’s sort of not what I had in mind when I came out thirty years ago.

I have three kids who have five parents, more or less, and I don’t see why they shouldn’t have five parents legally… I met my new partner, and she had just had a baby, and that baby’s biological father is my brother, and my daughter’s biological father is a man who lives in Russia, and my adopted son also considers him his father. So the five parents break down into two groups of three… And really, I would like to live in a legal system that is capable of reflecting that reality, and I don’t think that’s compatible with the institution of marriage.”

Already we see legistlation in England where traditional words 'father' and 'mother' will be replaced with official terms Parent 1 and Parent 2. Their goal is to seperate procreation and childcare from marriage and family.

This is a war against the family we are talking about. It's not surprising that those on either side view each other as the enemy.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Windseeker

[Just_A_Guy]

What's wrong with "LDS aren't real Christians"?

From a legal standpoint?

Absolutely nothing.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm becoming increasingly pessimistic about a happy middle ground being reached. For many traditionalists (Christian, Jewish, Muslim especially) homosexual activity is sin. We believe we are duty-bound to promote a society where that doesn't happen--at least not much. The LBGT community of 40 years ago was small, disorganized, and likely could not hope for much more than to be left alone. As they became organized and gained some political clout (and cultural clout), their vision of acceptance grew. Academia seemed to accept that LBGT orientation is about as optional as race, and so the idea that this is a modern civil rights cause gained traction. Mainstream Christian denominations started to break from tradition, and become "inclusive" or "affirming." The one evangelical group that espoused reparative therapy has closed its doors and disavowed the effort.

Then there is history. Many religionists were unkind in our descriptions of homosexuality. Cruel, in fact. Condemning. Some in the LBGT community disavowed religion because of it. And now, the wind is in their sails, and a few may feel it is payback time.

This week in Seattle a street preacher at a gay pride event was assaulted--to mild cheering. The signage was not gay-specific, but rather the generic "Repent, be saved!" They hecklers shouted, "You gonna save us? Who are you to judge?" They stole his sign, and one beat him up pretty good.

Youtube respondents mostly said the preacher had it coming, and that this was obviously what the Christians wanted, so they could play the victim.

Sadly, some Christians will react badly, and resort to fear, hate and condemnation.

I'm trying to see how this can end peacefully...but Soul's right. Some on both sides are removing options by their rhetoric and actions.

Edited July 9, 2013 by prisonchaplain

[NeuroTypical]

This week in Seattle a street preacher at a gay pride event was assaulted--to mild cheering. The signage was not gay-specific, but rather the generic "Repent, be saved!" They hecklers shouted, "You gonna save us? Who are you to judge?" They stole his sign, and one beat him up pretty good.

Do you have a link to that story, PC?

[carlimac]

Here's one:

Group of Seattle Pridefest Participants Attack Christian Preachers | National Review Online

[prisonchaplain]

Here's one:

Group of Seattle Pridefest Participants Attack Christian Preachers | National Review Online

Ironically, some of the YouTube comments included the allegation that the Christians were out there specifically to create this kind of confrontation--and here it turns out the videographer was a neutral bystander, who was not even sympathetic to the preachers' message. Go figure.

[annewandering]

This idea of hating the opposition in any concern is growing by leaps and bounds. We have to either be for completely or are hateful. It is not a gay issue problem particularly although that is certainly a prominent one. I read comments on the news stories. They tell what people are thinking and it is not pretty.

[Bini]

It's hard to keep things into perspective but I try to remind myself that there's always in-betweeners. Just like you get loudmouthed far left Liberals, and you get loudmouthed far right Conservatives. We just got to remember that there's many in-betweeners, too. I think part of the "feelings getting hurt" is when an entire community is painted in one colour, when there are variants within its group or organisation. This kind of overlooking is harmful to all of us.

[carlimac]

Ironically, some of the YouTube comments included the allegation that the Christians were out there specifically to create this kind of confrontation--and here it turns out the videographer was a neutral bystander, who was not even sympathetic to the preachers' message. Go figure.

I didn't even look at the video I only read the headline. I saw it on several different news outlets.

[Soulsearcher]

Hmmm. Food for thought, but not exactly how I saw things. Honestly, I felt most helped by the ones who agreed with me completely. (It's nice to know someone else feels the same way.) I had no qualms with others who have a different opinion of tattoos, or who misunderstood me. I tried to clear up their misunderstanding of what I was saying but had no expectation that they would change their view. None!

Taking this back to the OP , I truly believe that those in the LGBT camp, if they are going to get along with those who disagree or don't understand them, are going to have to develop a thicker skin and let things roll off their backs a little more. As LDS we have to do the same thing. From listening to my sons and nephews and countless other missionaries tell of their experiences, they have been very respectful if someone really makes it clear they have no interest in the church. They simply leave them to their lives. They don't go crying foul and raising a stink about it. I think the LGBT community could apply some of this same attitude when someone doesn't believe their "message". There are enough people in the world that do. They should feel pleased. It's not a matter of enormous consequences ( Yes I've heard of the bullying and murders and suicides-exceptions) if the whole world doesn't agree with their premise and lifestyle. It would be an impossible task to change so many minds.

So therefore I think they should look at the real meaning behind "Love the sinner, not the sin." We all sin in different ways, we are all imperfect. We are a very diverse set of human beings. To come to a complete consensus is not possible and is an illogical expectation. So why don't we just relax a little, let others live according to their conscience and if we get a little love along the way, count that as a great blessing. They certainly aren't going to gain any respect and may even damage their chances of getting luv if they throw a tantrum every time someone who isn't pro-homosexuality makes a movie or writes a story or opens a restaurant. For pity sakes, just go get your chicken sandwich or get your wedding cake somewhere else. Ya know?

the point i was making with the comparison to your thread wasn't about changing minds, it was about who was helpful and who wasn't and why. the people who understood or tried to understand were more helpful rather than the ones who had a set mindset and really didn't want to understand your reasons or reactions. You kept trying to explain yourself and why, even if it wasn't to change their minds you wanted them to understand and not think the wrong thing about you based on how they saw and understood your issue.

Now as for developing thicker skins i do have to laugh. I hear people on this board complaining all the time about chicken sandwiches and cakes and photographers. How dare people require these fine upstanding christians live by the law of the land. They aren't whining they are just standing up for their convictions. Great, but the other side does it and they are forcing things down your throat. both sides whine. "oh my rights are in danger" which hits to the very heart of what PC was talking about. It's one thing to say gays need thicker skin but really we have a thick skin from all the years of being jokes and targets. It's lead to some being sensitive, but really just as sensitive as "oh my rights and my family are in danger from the gay couple next door" Again these post show that as much as people don't like the gay victim mentality, it clearly shown by both sides, we just tend to jump on our own bandwagons.

"OH but it's so different!!!" no it's not, it's the way we explain away that which we don't like. i will say i agree gay and christian people should leave people alone who don't share their views, but neither side does and the church's role in California and Hawaii show this. "We don't agree with them and by darn it's going to be our way because it's best for everyone." Consider this( aside from the almost impossibility of it) the catholics and baptists decide to gang up and try and find a way to eliminate the LDS church through a vote. What do you do? It's a choice, it means almost nothing to them. To their view of scripture it's very clear you are sinners and a danger to children because you might convert them. Do you sit and take it or do you try and stop it, do you fight for what you believe? To those against you you'll be whining and thin skinned because they are only doing what's best for you and the world by eliminating a sinful life style. Do you submit and go meekly?

The answer to this is the response to polygamy being outlawed. They fought for years and refused to submit to what the majority of the country thought of their beliefs. They were horrible sinners, freaks, perverts, moral degenerates. The LDS cried persecution and such, and according to you this was whining and having a thin skin. The fact they'd faced violence and ill treatment before this means nothing because really the past has no place in the current, they had no reason to fight or make any noise. Now if you agree with this view then so be it, most LDS i talk to find this a righteous fight against persecution and say if not for the proclamation to end polygamy they would have kept fighting.

So why do you expect less from others who have their convictions? Why is standing up and speaking and fighting whining and being thin skinned? Now as said earlier there are those on both sides who take it too far, but for the most part everyone is doing and saying the same thing with almost no effect other than making things worse, so why is it excusable for one side and wrong for the other aside from the fact you don't agree with the other side?

[Soulsearcher]

I didn't even look at the video I only read the headline. I saw it on several different news outlets.

Pastor Beats Up Own Gay Son in Church - Democratic Underground

Edited July 10, 2013 by Soulsearcher
crude langauge in original post sorry, missed it

[carlimac]

Soul, I appreciate your sincerity and your passion about this, but trying to compare the gay issues with LDS issues just doesn't work. It's like trying to compare a fruit and pet. I can never get my head around your "for instances". One is about beliefs that are fluid and changeable, the other about biological urges. They just can't be compared.

The reason it's petty and pathetic that gay couples complain about services denied is that there ARE plenty of other businesses who would be happy to fill their order. This "law of the land" was put in place to help people of color who had no other recourse. They had no other place to go to get what they needed. So Gays trying to ride on the coattails of this law are despicably dishonest. They are just trying to skewer the person who disagrees with their lifestyle. It's their way of shoving their lifestyle and choices down the public's throat. Business owners should be able to serve whomever they choose. And deny service if it goes against their beliefs or conscience. OK I'm going to try to walk in LGBT's shoes here for a minute. If we must compare gays and LDS...if someone told me they wouldn't film my LDS wedding, I'd hightail it outta there. I would NOT make an example of them. I wouldn't sue them. I might shake my head a little because of the money they would lose by not serving me, but Oh well. You know darn well what these lawsuits are all about. They are about FORCING the public into submission. They are about punishing the business owner for hurting their pride. The lawsuits are disgraceful and shameful.

I know there are some offensive folks who insult gays on a regular basis in a very ugly manner. They should clean up their language and their act. They should back off and leave gays alone. Any pastor who encourages violence should be stripped of their position. But there are sincere religious people that believe in their heart of hearts that homosexual relations are against God's commandments. They are pleading for safety of innocent children who might be drawn into it, pleading that the sanctity of the family the way nature/God or the big biological bang designed it remain intact. Pleading that society doesn't buy into the sales pitch of homosexuality. Why not just ignore them if you don't believe them. Go on with your life, love who you want to. Apply for domestic partner benefits, enjoy life instead of forever agitating for something most people are not ready to give, that cuts deeply into personal conviction. It only causes aggravation and resentment. It will never cause the other side to have tender hearts for the LGBT cause.

Edited July 10, 2013 by carlimac

[carlimac]

PS- I have absolutely no idea what went on in Hawaii.

[carlimac]

The Escapist : Forums : Religion and Politics : Pastor Orders His Flock to Beat Gay Couple Arriving At Church

Any blog that starts with an F-bomb isn't going to get read by Moi. Mods- please take a lookie.

[LittleWyvern]

Group of Seattle Pridefest Participants Attack Christian Preachers | National Review Online

The Escapist : Forums : Religion and Politics : Pastor Orders His Flock to Beat Gay Couple Arriving At Church

...yeah, what Bini said. It's easy to compare (our) best with (their) worst and use that as a justification to feel morally superior, but it's dishonest to say the least.

As far as the boycott goes, the only place I've heard about it is here. I'm pretty underwhelmed by the whole thing.

[estradling75]

The question is.... Why do both groups let the worst of their own groups hog the spot light?

[LittleWyvern]

The question is.... Why do both groups let the worst of their own groups hog the spot light?

They're louder and more easily noticed? It's not like anybody's letting them hog the spotlight, it's just that if you're lazy about learning about a group you'll probably notice the worst people first and then decide you know all there is to know about it.

[estradling75]

They're louder and more easily noticed? It's not like anybody's letting them hog the spotlight, it's just that if you're lazy about learning about a group you'll probably notice the worst people first and then decide you know all there is to know about it.

That means the those who are mourning the lost of civility and middle ground in the discourse need to make their voices louder... As long as the extreme ends of your own group are the loudest and most visible they are going to define you for everyone else. As long as their extremely distasteful (and frankly wrong) tactics are not loudly, and prolongly denounce by their own middle ground they will define you. Both sides need to do some through house cleaning if this is to be recovered.

[carlimac]

...yeah, what Bini said. It's easy to compare (our) best with (their) worst and use that as a justification to feel morally superior, but it's dishonest to say the least.

As far as the boycott goes, the only place I've heard about it is here. I'm pretty underwhelmed by the whole thing.

Google it. It's all over the place.

[Soulsearcher]

Soul, I appreciate your sincerity and your passion about this, but trying to compare the gay issues with LDS issues just doesn't work. It's like trying to compare a fruit and pet. I can never get my head around your "for instances". One is about beliefs that are fluid and changeable, the other about biological urges. They just can't be compared.

The reason it's petty and pathetic that gay couples complain about services denied is that there ARE plenty of other businesses who would be happy to fill their order. This "law of the land" was put in place to help people of color who had no other recourse. They had no other place to go to get what they needed. So Gays trying to ride on the coattails of this law are despicably dishonest. They are just trying to skewer the person who disagrees with their lifestyle. It's their way of shoving their lifestyle and choices down the public's throat. Business owners should be able to serve whomever they choose. And deny service if it goes against their beliefs or conscience. OK I'm going to try to walk in LGBT's shoes here for a minute. If we must compare gays and LDS...if someone told me they wouldn't film my LDS wedding, I'd hightail it outta there. I would NOT make an example of them. I wouldn't sue them. I might shake my head a little because of the money they would lose by not serving me, but Oh well. You know darn well what these lawsuits are all about. They are about FORCING the public into submission. They are about punishing the business owner for hurting their pride. The lawsuits are disgraceful and shameful.

I know there are some offensive folks who insult gays on a regular basis in a very ugly manner. They should clean up their language and their act. They should back off and leave gays alone. Any pastor who encourages violence should be stripped of their position. But there are sincere religious people that believe in their heart of hearts that homosexual relations are against God's commandments. They are pleading for safety of innocent children who might be drawn into it, pleading that the sanctity of the family the way nature/God or the big biological bang designed it remain intact. Pleading that society doesn't buy into the sales pitch of homosexuality. Why not just ignore them if you don't believe them. Go on with your life, love who you want to. Apply for domestic partner benefits, enjoy life instead of forever agitating for something most people are not ready to give, that cuts deeply into personal conviction. It only causes aggravation and resentment. It will never cause the other side to have tender hearts for the LGBT cause.

The thing is they can be compared if you want to. If you want to imagine how it would feel you could do just that, but you've pointed out the exact example PC and i are talking about. "i refuse to look or try because i'm not comfortable with going that distance". How hard is it to say how you would feel. How hard would it be to guess from actions and journals and comments for the polygamy era what was going on with the saint and their persecution. Instead of looking for ways out and avoidance of empathy and understanding you could actually try. This is what PC and i refer to about the meeting and it always have to be at odds. If one group always tells the other to picture something and are dismissed then it doesn't make any head way. you keep telling about kids and families in danger and yet to the gays this is as irrelevant as you think my scenarios are. So exactly how does either side grow or learn?

The law of the land you refer to does aid people of color, but it also aids people of religion and gender. Now gender and race most would argue make sense but if we don't like the idea of choices being protected why is religion protected, why aren't the religious right just as up in arms about this choice being protected? because it protects them. While i don't personally agree with the lawsuits i also think it's stupid for these businesses usually doing hypocritical things and only getting their moral back up when gays come. Most will do business with any other sinner and even celebrate sins, but gays that's the only group they don't want to serve. That i as a human being never mind being a gay man have an issue with. I'd have the same issue if it was someone who said they don't like christians but only refused to deal with mormons. Either you stick by your guns all the way or you aren't really standing for anything. To me it's not about forcing it's about calling people out. You have done the same many times with the threads you start on gay subject pointing out their faults or making the points public you don't agree with. you call them out because you don't like what they have done or said. one thing to also point out, i'm not sure in how many cases, but there are a few where they haven't sued, the state has gone after the company after a report was filed. So some one uses a legal avenue that's there for a reason and people "whine" about their rights being infringed on....when they've just done the same thing and got called on it, again pc and i look on and wonder if tit for tat is ever going to help, but should the original insult have happened at all.

Now I'm going to rewrite your last paragraph. you'll groan and say the changes are pointless and have no real value but i think some others who are willing to actually see the meeting of sides that PC and i would like might get the point.

I know there are some offensive folks who insult Christians on a regular basis in a very ugly manner. They should clean up their language and their act. They should back off and leave Christians alone. Any activist who encourages violence should be stripped of their position. But there are sincere people that believe in their heart of hearts that homosexual relations have nothing to do with God's commandments. They are pleading for safety of innocent children who might be either given the message they have no hope , pleading for a chance to form a loving family with the person they wish to spend the rest of their lives with and possibly expand that family either with one of their own children or by adopting a child that most families would never consider adopting. Pleading that society doesn't buy into the sales pitch of Christianity. Why not just ignore them if you don't believe them. Go on with your life, love who you want to. Get Married, enjoy life instead of forever agitating against something that holds deep personal meaning, that cuts deeply into personal conviction. It only causes aggravation and resentment. It will never cause the other side to have tender hearts for the Christian cause.

Now if you think this sounds silly, or impertinent or completely irrelevant then you can start to see how much work we have to reach that mutual respect that PC was hoping for, a place where their doesn't need to be a fight, and rights cohabitate vs there can be only one.

Also i hate to bring it up again but it does show a lack of willingness to learn. The domestic partnership benefits are not always available, they are also not a federal benefit so they lack most of the real value. You can get some of this taken care of but the cost usually seems to start around 10,000 dollars and that's just a very basic start and still doesn't cover most things most spouses wouldn't even dream of. My favorite is in many states if i was hurt and in the hospital my partner would not have the right to stay with me outside of visiting hours. Not sure why people think this right is a huge thing but states have fought letting partners have this one thing, and yes the religious right has been part of that. Now please tell me we can at least agree that's silly.

[prisonchaplain]

Pastor Beats Up Own Gay Son in Church - Democratic Underground

Yikes. Sounds like an unbalanced church...and sure 'nuff, at the end of the clip it says the good pastor and his wife are in the process of a divorce. Unbalanced shepherds directing unbalanced sheep, while self-destructing from within.

[Just_A_Guy]

I'd cluck a little louder about churches with divorced leaders. But given that Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, and Joseph F. Smith were all divorced, I seem to live in something of a glass house.

[carlimac]

It's funny. I'm going back and forth between this thread and a movie where the main actor is from London. So as I read your post, I heard it all in my head in a British accent. It's more striking that way.

The other thing that is funny to me is that I am forever painted as the bad guy on this forum and that you choose to tangle only with me- a 54 yr old grandmother, when JAG, Loudmouth Anatess and others have written far more direct and blasting posts on this topic than I have. Why do you single out my posts?

One more funny thing is that when I feel this us vs them frustration, you Soul are never in the "them" category in my mind because you are one of the decent ones. You are honest and don't make up false claims. You are mostly respectful even though you've lost your testimony of a loving God who knows you better than you know yourself. But I have to admit that you do see things through Gay colored glasses. And though you profess to see the other side and understand it, I'm not sure if you really do...anymore.

I can't refute the rewriting of my paragraph except for one thing that we'll possibly never agree on. Acting on homosexual impulses is a sin. Always will be unless we hear otherwise through the prophet. NOTE: that doesn't mean those with same gender attraction are all sinners. Only if they engage in homosexual physical intimacy. But at the very least, gay sex is unnatural and was never meant to be or our bodies would have been created or evolved ( if you prefer that explanation of how we got here) in a way that would accommodate same gender sex better. And children are actually harmed by those selfish enough to think they with their same gender partner are good enough, thereby denying that child a parent of one gender or another. It's utterly unfair to those children. Straight couples should step up to the plate and adopt more of the hardship cases. It's tragic that there are so many left behind. If I felt inspired or thought I could actually do it, I'd adopt but I'm currently up to my eyeballs in a hardship case or two with my own children.

Anyway, I for one will never be suckered into believing the gay agenda is good and righteous. Loving and accepting people-no matter what- as children of God is something I can do. I do believe that everyone deserves at least one family member or domestic partner who has full rights as a spouse would. But agree with the tale that gays tell? No! Not even if it were one of my own children.

Edited July 10, 2013 by carlimac

[bytor2112]

But there are sincere people that believe in their heart of hearts that homosexual relations have nothing to do with God's commandments.

I was in a Tom Thumb yesterday and was discussing the virtues of 2/3 diet topped with the real stuff with a couple of fellows.... a few seconds later the guy smooched the other guy. It made my skin crawl...I found it repulsive and disgusting...just plain icky. But, I smiled politely and went on my way....

It costs nothing to be polite. But, it costs much to say nothing with regard to values we hold dear. Regardless of sincere belief that homosexual relations has nothing to do with God's commandments...the fact remains that the majority of people who profess to be Christian believe that is a sin. The point being made by LM and others regarding the increasingly aggressive g/l movement have many on edge and asking when will it end or where does it stop?

What you view as normal, others still view as unnatural and worse..a plague that has helped destroyed civilizations. Those who are concerned about gray areas, and learning and understanding are valuable allies to the g/l movement, because they have been properly indoctrinated into the mind set that tolerance and moral relativism is the product of an enlightened mind.

I am opposed to g/l marriage, but, I am also certain that it will likely occur and many other oddities after. I am not going to lose sleep over it, march in the streets or be hateful. Life rolls on and I am happy to let the Lord sort it out. But if asked if it is a sin.....my answer is and must be yes...no grey areas.

Edited July 10, 2013 by bytor2112

[Soulsearcher]

It's funny. I'm going back and forth between this thread and a movie where the main actor is from London. So as I read your post, I heard it all in my head in a British accent. It's more striking that way.

The other thing that is funny to me is that I am forever painted as the bad guy on this forum and that you choose to tangle only with me- a 54 yr old grandmother, when JAG, Loudmouth Anatess and others have written far more direct and blasting posts on this topic than I have. Why do you single out my posts?

One more funny thing is that when I feel this us vs them frustration, you Soul are never in the "them" category in my mind because you are one of the decent ones. You are honest and don't make up false claims. You are mostly respectful even though you've lost your testimony of a loving God who knows you better than you know yourself. But I have to admit that you do see things through Gay colored glasses. And though you profess to see the other side and understand it, I'm not sure if you really do...anymore.

I can't refute the rewriting of my paragraph except for one thing that we'll possibly never agree on. Acting on homosexual impulses is a sin. Always will be unless we hear otherwise through the prophet. NOTE: that doesn't mean those with same gender attraction are all sinners. Only if they engage in homosexual physical intimacy. But at the very least, gay sex is unnatural and was never meant to be or our bodies would have been created or evolved ( if you prefer that explanation of how we got here) in a way that would accommodate same gender sex better. And children are actually harmed by those selfish enough to think they with their same gender partner are good enough, thereby denying that child a parent of one gender or another. It's utterly unfair to those children. Straight couples should step up to the plate and adopt more of the hardship cases. It's tragic that there are so many left behind. If I felt inspired or thought I could actually do it, I'd adopt but I'm currently up to my eyeballs in a hardship case or two with my own children.

Anyway, I for one will never be suckered into believing the gay agenda is good and righteous. Loving and accepting people-no matter what as children of God is something I can do. I do believe that everyone deserves at least one family member or domestic partner who has full rights as a spouse would. But agree with the tale that gays tell? No! Not even if it were one of my own children.

And that's the thing i think you hit right on the head. PC and i are both kinda looking for an answer to can there ever be a point where there doesn't have to be a clear winner and loser, is there a hope for an ability to co exist that both can live for.

read your last paragraph of this post and ask yourself if it leave room open to negotiate anything or if it sound final. If one side closes off then the other has no choice but to come up with ways to either defeat or go around. Both sides have moved to this mentality. What tale don't you buy? has there been strides made for the most part from religion to really stem the push or have they inflamed it more by the strong and final comments like you've made. Being righteous really doesn't much matter to most gays, it tends to be related to "holier than thou" which in the end most gays can't get far enough away from because of their experiences with religion , as for good, good is subjective, if every one is a sinner but still doing their best to make it through then no one is really good, just shades of good and to be honest if i cna come home relax have someone to talk to and grow close to, that's good enough for me and it's far more than i ever had as part of any religion, so i'm ok with it. Kinda with the congratulate or ignore thread, don't really have to think it's the best but at the end of the day, think back to you being at your most miserable, then think what made you heal and recover, a good person would, to me, notice that and be happy you are better.

I agree it's selfish people have kids and give them up. i agree it's selfish that most of the people complaining about gay adoption are doing nothing to fix it except crying loudly. I don't agree it's selfish for two people who want to offer that love to a child. For the most part lets be honest if it wasn't for straight people being selfish for the most part the majority of gays wouldn't have kids because there wouldn't the number of kids up for adoption. Yet that's not talked about nearly as much as how selfish gay people are for wanting children. Is there a reason for the lack of being honest on the topic? (not directed at anyone, just general)

I'm not sure it's more that i see things through gay colored glasses, I'm just able to give the perspective here that most can't. When i talk to gay people they say just the opposite. It's hard to build bridges and educate if you aren't bringing anything new to the table. If i just say the party LDS line then really it just becomes a cheer leading squad with nothing except happy hug ourselves feelings. No one learns if they aren't challenged. This site challenged me in a lot of ways and i've grown from it. I've become much more moderate and come to a point where i will educate people on the LDS instead of tow the gay line of "they are hateful homophobes who need to just go away" So yes i present the gay perspective and experiences i have had, because to be honest most people on this site haven't given it much thought from that side. And i pick on your posts because you seem to start a number of threads on the topic with less that unbiased openings and you keep coming back with much the same perspective but when challenged shut right down and either laugh at it or repeat with out seriously contributing some times. By sheer numbers if i didn't have so many posts from you my post count would probably be half of what it is. It reminds me of when dash was posting. If there was a post about breasts or male anatomy you knew he'd be there. If it's about gay things it's you and me.