I want to become a Mormon, but have some concerns

[Maureen]

Generally, only if they have a lot of close non-member family in my experience....

What about non-member friends? I can't imagine LDS not having non-member friends, where ever they live.

M.

[beefche]

I wonder if anyone has done a poll to see how many couples are having both ring ceremony and reception compared to just a reception. I'm finding personally, that most young LDS couples getting married now are including a ring ceremony in their day.

M.

I only had a ring ceremony because my non-member father requested some kind of ceremony. Honestly, if he hadn't requested it, I'm not sure I would have bothered.

[jerome1232]

What about non-member friends? I can't imagine LDS not having non-member friends, where ever they live.

M.

I wouldn't have bothered for any relationship other than parents.

[Guest]

Yeah, I can't think of any religion or culture that makes special changes to their wedding for all their guests.

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon HiJolly. I hope you are doing well! :)

Official reasons aside... I think it's pretty obvious that BY...at the time [was] racist. And [he] continued to be racist for generations. But not ALL GAs were, thank God.

Calling President Young a racist is not fair to President Young. It is also not fair to the documentary evidence. There are only a relatively few quotes (often taken out of context) from President Young which can be construed as outright racist (rather than a reflection of his sincerely held religious beliefs). Clearly President Young was a man of his time and had biases and prejudices, but to say that President Young is a racist, with the implication that he had some personal hate or dislike for black people, is wrong. Putting such a label on Brigham Young reflects a narrow view of a great prophet and man of God who was an example of Christlike love and charity towards all men and women. The documentary evidence overwhelmingly supports this charitable view of President Young.

Regards,

Finrock

[jerome1232]

I actually agree, Brigham is often quoted out of context to make him appear racist.

For example

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the while man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.

but then later in the very same talk:

If the Government of the United States, in Congress assembled, had the right to pass an anti-polygamy bill, they had also the right to pass a law that slaves should not be abused as they have been; they had also a right to make a law that negroes should be used like human beings, and not worse than dumb brutes. For their abuse of that race, the whites will be cursed, unless they repent.

My thought? In Brigham's time interracial marriages were illegal. Under what circumstances then, would seed be being mixed between races? All too often, it was a slave holder raping his 'property'. Giving the second quote, I feel the man was not racist, and perhaps he was condemning the practice of raping ones slaves.

This is an example of how I feel he is often taken out of context.

Edited July 17, 2013 by jerome1232

[Maureen]

I wouldn't have bothered for any relationship other than parents.

Maybe Canadian Mormons see friends and family members differently.

M.

[jerome1232]

Maybe Canadian Mormons see friends and family members differently.

M.

I wouldn't doubt some cultural difference between us affecting the frequency of ring ceremonies, I wouldn't doubt a cultural difference between states.

I would suspect a less dense LDS population in Canada than in S. California (which is where I live) which may also be why you see more ring ceremonies.

Who knows

[skippy740]

I actually agree, Brigham is often quoted out of context to make him appear racist.

For example

but then later in the very same talk:

My thought? In Brigham's time interracial marriages were illegal. Under what circumstances then, would seed be being mixed between races? All too often, it was a slave holder raping his 'property'. Giving the second quote, I feel the man was not racist, and perhaps he was condemning the practice of raping ones slaves.

This is an example of how I feel he is often taken out of context.

I appreciate your quotes. Could you please post a link? Thanks!

[jerome1232]

Journal of Discourses Vol. 10, page 110, first quote starts at the lower half the page, the second quote is on the upper portion of the following page.

There is a pdf here: Vol. 10 Journal of Discourses :: Journal of Discourses

I found it easiest to use the thumbnails to go to pages quickly.

You will note he clearly states he is no abolitionist, but he also says he is not pro-slavery man, and if he had to choose a side, he'd side with the abolitionists.

Edited July 18, 2013 by jerome1232

[Finrock]

Here are some more quotes from Brigham Young:

“In our nation slavery is the great bone of contention. Do we oppose the principle of servitude? I oppose it not in my judgment. If I have a manservant or a maidservant, they are flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone—they are the children of God as much as I am. In the providences of God their ability is such that they cannot rise above the position of a servant, and they are willing to serve me and have me dictate their labor. Then let them do service to me, and it is my duty to treat them kindly and reward them accordingly. All the nations of the earth are composed of one flesh and blood, and God will bring into judgment the nation that abuses the liberties it possesses. If he has given me power to rule this people, or to own a hundred slaves, he requires at my hands how I use this influence and power over his creatures, and he will punish me if I abuse it. If I were the dictator of the nation in which I live, I should be held responsible to Him for that power and influence. He would expect me to rule in righteousness” (JoD Vol. 10).

Now, one could construe this as racist, but I want to point out that Brigham Young said what he said about blacks because he believed that Cain was cursed and this was their condition on earth. However, clearly he did not think blacks were less human or not children of God. Another way to explain this is to look at how President Young viewed polygamy. He hated it. He didn't want to do it, however, because he believed it is what God wanted, he did it anyway. He actually believed that it was the providences of God that blacks were consigned to a role of servitude. Therefore, it wasn't Brigham Youngs position to question what he felt God had designed. His view of blacks wasn't because of hatred or dislike or because he thought blacks were less human.

Some more from Brigham Young...

“The nation that is angry at the reproof and rebuke of the righteous proves that it is on the high way to ruin. We do not coerce nor drive people. I am very much of the opinion that it would be useless for anybody to undertake to drive me to heaven or to hell. My independence is sacred to me—it is a portion of that same Deity that rules in the heavens. There is not a being upon the face of the earth who is made in the image of God, who stands erect and is organized as God is, that should be deprived of the free exercise of his agency so far as he does not infringe upon others' rights, save by good advice and a good example” (JoD Vol. 10).

In the first quote, President Young recognizes blacks as being children of God. In this quote, President Young states that none of God's children should be deprived of their freedoms.

“To tell it in a plain, truthful way, one portion of the country wish to raise their negroes or black slaves and the other portion wish to free them, and, apparently, to almost worship them. Well, raise and worship them, who cares? I should never fight one moment about it, for the cause of human improvement is not in the least advanced by the dreadful war which now convulses our unhappy country.

Ham will continue to be the servant of servants, as the Lord has decreed, until the curse is removed. Will the present struggle free the slave? No; but they are now wasting away the black race by thousands. Many of the blacks are treated worse than we treat our dumb brutes; and men will be called to judgment for the way they have treated the negro, and they will receive the condemnation of a guilty conscience, by the just Judge whose attributes are justice and truth.

Treat the slaves kindly and let them live, for Ham must be the servant of servants until the curse is removed. Can you destroy the decrees of the Almighty? You cannot. Yet our Christian brethren think that they are going to overthrow the sentence of the Almighty upon the seed of Ham. They cannot do that, though they may kill them by thousands and tens of thousands” (Vol. 10 p. 248).

Finally...

“I say God speed everybody that is for freedom and equal rights! I am with you. Whom do we want to fill our public offices? We want the best men that we can find for governor, president and statesmen, and for every other office of trust and responsibility; and when we have obtained them, we will pray for them and give them our faith and influence to do the will of God and to preserve themselves and the people in truth and righteousness” (JoD Vol. 13, p. 268).

Again, stating that Brigham Young is a racist just doesn't do justice to President Young. In my opinion, President Young believed that blacks were cursed because of the sin of Cain. He didnt' believe they were cursed because they were bad people or not valiant in the spirit world. President Young accepted this doctrine but recognized that one day God would remove the curse and he had no personal problem with the curse being removed. Obviously there were notions and ideas that we disagree with today, but to President Young these ideas were doctrine. Compared to notions popular during that time in the United States, President Young's words were enlightened. Further, he never acted maliciously towards blacks. President Young always advocated kindness, love, empathy, and concern towards slaves.

Regards,

Finrock

Edited July 19, 2013 by Finrock
Added one more quote.

[Guest]

But Finrock... You know that in today's world, all you need to do is say he's black and you're labeled a racist... That's why you will notice that people tend to whisper the word black in restaurants....

[Lakumi]

But Finrock... You know that in today's world, all you need to do is say he's black and you're labeled a racist... That's why you will notice that people tend to whisper the word black in restaurants....

OHH racist, called it, totally called it

[Traveler]

I haven't posted here for awhile, and I think it's time that I become active again. First off, I really do want to become a Mormon, and join this Church. However, concerns are popping up in my head. I have a list of some concerns and confusing doctrines that I don't understand, etc.

• Is there any conclusive and/or inconclusive evidence that supports the Book of Mormon. If so, could you provide me with a link/book.

No one knows for sure where the Book of Mormon events associated with the Americas took place so such evidence is speculation. However, the Book of Mormon outlines a journey from Jerusalem to the Indian Ocean. George Potter and Richard Wellington (LDS residents in Saudi Arabia) have traced the route documented in the Book of Mormon in their book, Lehi in the Wilderness". They document 81 specific proofs that were not known in the place of time of Joseph Smith in America that are proof of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. But I submit that such proof is unconvincing - Satan is able to stand in the very light of G-d and deny his works. Those that willingly or unwillingly serve Satan will not accept proof - though they stand in the light of the noon day son they will deny it and call say that it is night.

• I am a bit worried about the legitimacy of Joseph Smith's prophethood. I've read the Wikipedia article (yes, I know Wikipedia isn't the best source), and I see some worrying trends, such as the bank scandal.

Just as a side note: The Pharisees had more convening proof that Jesus was not the son of G-d. The point here is that the economy of men under the control of Satan is not the place to look for evidence concerning the Saints of G-d. The only way to know if a person is a prophet of G-d is from that G-d that has allegedly sent him. Any other "evidence" is in reality a distraction.

• Can I still go to heaven if I'm not married (I plan on getting married, just curious)?

G-d has provided the one and only way to heaven - it is G-d that has commanded and specified marriage as holy. It is impossible to be one with G-d in heaven and not strive to keep his commandments.

• I am 19, but will most likely join the Church when I'm 20 something (probably 22-24, since my parents are against it, and I'll be out of the house by that time), but I want to become a missionary. What is the age limit?

If G-d will call you then you will be able to serve. Your choice is to serve G-d - it is G-d's choice if you will serve him by going on a mission.

• Are the prophets infallible?

No.

• Why were blacks banned from the priesthood?

In all my studies I have not found that answer - it appears to be something that is not yet known (as are a great many other things).

• Can family members come to my temple marriage? If they can't, would I be able to have a "second" marriage in a place where they can see?

Any person willing to covenant with G-d concerning the holiness of G-d, his temple and his sacred covenant of eternal marriage is able to attend. Anyone that does not believe the temple to be sacred and holy - I do not understand why you would want them to desecrate your sacred covenant. You may not want to say that to their face (depending on their prejudice) but for both your sake as well as theirs it is better that they suffer some misunderstanding than to offend G-d.

That's all of my serious questions. Here's my not so serious question. I want to purchase the new Standard Works with all four books of scripture in the Quad edition. However, I don't want missionaries coming to my house, since my parents will be very mad (they were very, very mad when I had missionaries come over last summer, didn't go so well..). So my question is, would a shipping company, like UPS or Canada Post ship it to me, or what?

I have been wanting to join the LDS Church for about a year and a half, but I really want to learn more. I don't like doing things fast, so doing this slowly will help me understand and adapt to Mormon theology and culture. I do consider myself a cultural Mormon. But I am guilty of drinking coffee and alcohol. Don't worry, I hate tea. :)

Just wondering - have you considered what it is that G-d wants you to do?

The Traveler

[Guest constantin]

Here is another quote from President B. Young: "You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother.

Please please stop making excuses, turning the book upside down in the hopes of seeing something else. These quotes are from a man whom believed there were "classes" of human beings. Ok. Please just stop right there! "CLASSES" of human beings, and he further described how these men are just born "unlucky", and does nothing to help these human beings (you know apathy) but condemns them further by barring them from the priesthood (CTR). Brigham Young acted and spoke like a racist.

[LaughingMan]

In regard to the denial of Priesthood rights to African-Americans, I recently saw an exemplary documentary entitled "Nobody Knows". Its the story of African-American members of the Church.

In short, there were at least two black men ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood before the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, Elijah Able and Walker Lewis. Able was a Seventy and served two missions for the Church. Both retained the Melchizedek Priesthood until their death. Able is buried in a cemetery in the Salt Lake area.

The "consensus" stated in the documentary was that President Young instituted the ban as a "policy" not as doctrine. Though the policy today seems rather radical and exclusionary, it seemingly was intended as a way of keeping the peace in the Utah Territory between members of Southern and Northern persuasion at a time of great disunity between the States leading up to the Civil War, and the lingering ill feelings after the war. It was a policy that was continued after President Young's death. Subsequent Prophets declared they believed it to be a temporary policy, but nothing came of it otherwise until President McKay, who began earnestly praying for an answer to the situation, as did President Smith and President Lee. President Kimball continued the tradition, even going so far as to spend hours alone in the Salt Lake Temple after it was closed for the night until he received the answer that became the revelation in 1978.

I was touched by something an African-American woman said in the documentary though... she stated that we are all aware of our missions on Earth before we join our mortal bodies and pass through the veil... which to her meant that she'd accepted the body she had, the skin color, and the knowledge of all the trials that she'd be subjected to.

[JodyTJ]

Just wondering - have you considered what it is that G-d wants you to do?

The Traveler

I think God wants me to join his Church on earth, which is the LDS Church. Also, I believe he wants me to spread the Gospel, as a missionary. It's just burning inside me to tell everyone about the Bible and the Book of Mormon. :)

In regard to the denial of Priesthood rights to African-Americans, I recently saw an exemplary documentary entitled "Nobody Knows". Its the story of African-American members of the Church.

In short, there were at least two black men ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood before the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, Elijah Able and Walker Lewis. Able was a Seventy and served two missions for the Church. Both retained the Melchizedek Priesthood until their death. Able is buried in a cemetery in the Salt Lake area.

The "consensus" stated in the documentary was that President Young instituted the ban as a "policy" not as doctrine. Though the policy today seems rather radical and exclusionary, it seemingly was intended as a way of keeping the peace in the Utah Territory between members of Southern and Northern persuasion at a time of great disunity between the States leading up to the Civil War, and the lingering ill feelings after the war. It was a policy that was continued after President Young's death. Subsequent Prophets declared they believed it to be a temporary policy, but nothing came of it otherwise until President McKay, who began earnestly praying for an answer to the situation, as did President Smith and President Lee. President Kimball continued the tradition, even going so far as to spend hours alone in the Salt Lake Temple after it was closed for the night until he received the answer that became the revelation in 1978.

I was touched by something an African-American woman said in the documentary though... she stated that we are all aware of our missions on Earth before we join our mortal bodies and pass through the veil... which to her meant that she'd accepted the body she had, the skin color, and the knowledge of all the trials that she'd be subjected to.

Thanks! I'm gunna check out that documentary. :)

[LaughingMan]

No problem! It's a fascinating watch!

[bytebear]

The foundation of the church in Western Africa is also fascinating, and nothing short of miraculous.

[LaughingMan]

The foundation of the church in Western Africa is also fascinating, and nothing short of miraculous.

Thats entirely true! Also, how quickly the membership is growing in Africa in general is astounding.

[pam]

Thats entirely true! Also, how quickly the membership is growing in Africa in general is astounding.

I find the stories of those in Africa very touching. I hoping to meet soon with a lady from Sierra Leone who watched most of her family killed by rebels in her home country. Her own parents were both killed while they were all trying to run to safety. Her story and the story of her conversion is one of the most touching stories I've ever read. She is an inspiration.

Yet there are so many more like her. Yes the church is certainly growing there.