Intellectual Compatibility in Marriage

[guenzo]

Hi everyone. I'm new to this board. My wife and I have been married for 13 years and have four children. We are both in our 30's. I'd love to get some insight from others about the issue my wife and I are dealing with, which is intellectual compatibility. My wife has a simple, wonderful personality and is comfortable with the basic knowledge she has about the world, the gospel, etc. I have a very inquisitive mind and am always seeking additional knowledge about diverse subjects like Church history and doctrine, science and technology, etc.

During our courtship and early marriage I didn't even think about intellectual compatibility as an important factor in marriage since we were both so compatible in other areas (dedication to the gospel, family). As the years have passed this difference between us has become more and more glaring. We have a difficult time understanding how each other thinks, reasons, and makes decisions. As a result, contention has increased to the point that it is hindering our marriage and family.

I long to have deep and meaningful conversations with my wife but her limited knowledge makes it difficult for us to have two-way conversations where we can both contribute. I realize that the problem is my own, but I'm having a hard time letting go of the desire to have an intellectual connection with her. We are currently seeing a marriage counselor, meeting with the bishop, reading books and articles, praying, temple attendance, etc. Our marriage is slowly improving by focusing on what we do have in common instead of our differences, but I can't shake the feeling that this is one area that we will never come together on.

The depressing part for me is that most people I encounter belittle my desire as if I'm being selfish. Is it? For me, having a strong intellectual connection with my spouse is important. For others it may not be, but for me it is important.

How important is intellectual compatibility in marriage? Any thoughts?

Edited August 28, 2013 by guenzo

[Wingnut]

The depressing part for me is that most people I encounter belittle my desire as if I'm being selfish. Is it?

A little bit. I think intellectual compatibility, like any other compatibility, is important. But you come across almost like: "My wife and I are going to marriage counseling because we can't talk about anything at all because she's too stupid to understand it."

Compatibility doesn't necessarily mean comparability or equitability. You have things you can teach her, and undoubtedly you can learn plenty from her as well.

[Dravin]

The depressing part for me is that most people I encounter belittle my desire as if I'm being selfish. Is it? For me, having a strong intellectual connection with my spouse is important. For others it may not be, but for me it is important.

I think the big determiner of if it is selfish is if your desire is self-directed. Seems a little obvious when it's pointed out, but if the desire is based about what you want, and what you can get out of it then it is selfish. If the focus is that such conversations will benefit her then we can say it isn't selfish. From your phrasing that doesn't sound like the case. That said I think worrying about if it's selfish is a sideshow to the larger question. Is this something she can give you? If she can't you aren't getting it no matter how selfish or how reasonable (which are separate metrics).

[garryw]

I have 1 question and 1 comments

Why did it take you 13 years to figure this out?

and my comment

When I want an intellectual conversation I talk to my cousin not my wife. I don't see a problem with that.

my summary

Intellectual compatibility does not matter, once you're married it's too late to worry about such things.

[NeuroTypical]

My wife has a simple, wonderful personality and is comfortable with the basic knowledge she has about the world, the gospel, etc. I have a very inquisitive mind and am always seeking additional knowledge about diverse subjects like Church history and doctrine, science and technology, etc.

...

I'm having a hard time letting go of the desire to have an intellectual connection with her.

I know a few couples sort of yoked that way, but not closely enough to know how they handle it. I know some believers married to unbelievers, conservatives married to liberals, East coast married to midwest, spouses from different countries and heritages. Obviously, mutual toleration and acceptance of the way the other spouse is, is an important thing to internalize and practice.

If it's any consolation, if she had a more inquisitive mind and conversant on diverse subjects, she might well have greatly divergent views than you on very important matters that would make you even unhappier than you are now. Imagine a conversation where she just argued you into a corner, and is looking at you like you're as dumb as a box of rocks. You still think you're right and she's wrong, but you can't for the life of you say why. Be careful what you wish for. :)

[guenzo]

I have 1 question and 1 comments

Why did it take you 13 years to figure this out?

and my comment

When I want an intellectual conversation I talk to my cousin not my wife. I don't see a problem with that.

my summary

Intellectual compatibility does not matter, once you're married it's too late to worry about such things.

I started really noticing our differences about three to four years into our marriage. Suffice it to say I take my covenants seriously. I would never just give up on my marriage. I also knew that I had to wait until my wife also noticed that our personalities are substantially different before we could work on this. I tried to talk to her about it in the intervening years, but it hasn't sunk in until recently.

I wish I could say that I could just let it go and move on, but there is a void in my life. To me meaningful conversation is an important part of marital intimacy that cannot be substituted with any other person. Please don't say that because it is not important to you that it isn't important. We all find importance in different things. It doesn't make those things less important, just different. To look at it another way, what is the most precious thing about the relationship you have with your spouse that you would not want to find fulfillment in with anyone else?

Edited August 28, 2013 by guenzo

[NeuroTypical]

To me meaningful conversation is an important part of marital intimacy

Well, yeah, but meaningful conversation comes from more places than intellecutal conversation, doesn't it?

what is the most precious thing about the relationship you have with your spouse that you would not want to find fulfillment in from anyone else?

Not sure I understand. You want to talk deeply on intellectual issues with your wife, but nobody else? How come? Surely, having an intellectual conversation with another person isn't like cheating on your wife, right?

[Quin]

My ex-husband is wicked smart (I'm smarter in some ways, he's smarter in others... For example: He's more music & computers while I'm more science and art).

After 11 years of marriage, I divorced the bloke, and came to the following PERSONAL conviction:

I value kindness over intelligence.

Hands down.

Period.

No competition.

I can always go feed the elephant's child on campuses, conferences, computers... But the person I come HOME to? I don't care if they're a brick. As long as they're kind. Because coming home to anything less is soul killing.

I've dated (and lived with, converted later) the "simple" good hearted kind of guy. He may be clueless about undifferentiated cells, or aperture, or whatever it is that I've just gone off and done... But what HE wanted was me happy. To see me excited. To facilitate that in whatever way he could. Just as I poured energy into things for him that made him happy. Wanting the best for the other person creates this kind of synergistic life. Hands down amazing. I really undervalued it when I had it.

I should also add that divorcing a smart jerk made the divorce even uglier than the marriage. As he spent the next several years tormenting me for the fun of both doing it, and getting away with it. A kind person wouldn't do what he did, and a dumb person would get caught.

Don't undervalue a good heart.

Q

[Guest]

My husband is some kind of computer wizard. I know how to use the internet. My passion and talents lie in music, where his knowledge is limited.

We find plenty to talk about.

Stop bemoaning what's lacking in your marriage and start looking for what's great. Find things you mutually enjoy and do them together. Find your intellectual fulfillment in your hobbies and with your buddies, sure, but don't call the whole marriage a failure because she doesn't want to learn quantum physics or whatever it is.

[Bini]

I love this dialogue from Forrest Gump:

Forrest Gump: Will you marry me?

[Jenny turns and looks at him]

Forrest Gump: I'd make a good husband, Jenny.

Jenny Curran: You would, Forrest.

Forrest Gump: ...But you won't marry me.

Jenny Curran: [sadly] ... You don't wanna marry me.

Forrest Gump: Why don't you love me, Jenny?

[Jenny says nothing]

Forrest Gump: I'm not a smart man... but I know what love is.

The longer I'm married to my husband, the more I realise how different we really are as individuals and yet, it's not our weaknesses that define our marriage but our strengths when we work together. My husband is the kindest and most gentle person that I know but he's a logical thinker. I tend to react based on emotion and there's been many times where this has clouded my understanding and judgment of something. Needless to add, when our communication goes haywire because I may not process things the same way that he does, it can be frustrating to him. We also have a big age difference (almost 20 years) and this sometimes plays a role when it comes to his life experiences versus mine. All these things could totally tear two people apart because they're so different from each other. But I know why I married my husband and I know that if everything was stripped away -- one thing is always the same -- I love him and I love our family. I'll do whatever it takes and is in my power to learn and grow with him, despite any and all obstacles.

Keep with the counseling -- you say that you're seeing gradual improvement -- so don't bag it. Also, work on seeing your wife as an equal to you no matter what her shortcomings are. This mindset does wonders.

[kapikui]

I have to disagree with many, many members here. Being able to meet my spouse as an intellectual equal is of vital importance to me. Kindness and intelligence are NOT mutually exclusive, there is no correlation between the two.

The first thing that attracted me to my wife and I was that we could have an intelligent conversation. Intelligent conversation isn't just understanding details of science, but having the logical, reasoning and learning skills to be able to assimilate sufficient sufficient information to converse about something with minimal explanation. I was lucky in that my wife is every bit my equal in intelligence. I had dated a couple of girls previously who were difficult to even talk to because I had to take my conversation level so far down as to feel as if I were talking to children.

When you're dating someone graduating with a degree in History in a couple of months, and they can't keep up in a conversation about history, you have to wonder, particularly when you've only had the minimum number of history courses and don't really make history even a subject of casual study. And yes that did happen to me.

To the OP however, you've made decisions that you will have to live with now. My guess is that in the Celestial Kingdom there won't be that much difference between you in intelligence. Until then, find someone with whom you can have such conversations, someone with whom no romantic involvement could ever happen, such as a relative of the same gender or something. Find things to love and admire about your wife.

[mnn727]

How important is intellectual compatibility in marriage? Any thoughts?

Obviously you see it as being important, however I think you will need to seek an outside source for your intellectual comparability.

I would suggest looking in your Priesthood Quorums, especially the HP Group - ours is just really deep - no one falls asleep during that class. Also online is a good source.

I don't see it as that important to me although my wife and I sound a lot like you and your wife.

My wife refers to me as 'knowledge' and to her as 'Spirit' and we get along just fine. I get my intellectual challenge in HP Group classes and online and she teaches Primary, it works great for us.

Please stop trying to fit your wife into your mold, neither of you will be happy, understand that differences are good, they give spice to life, trust me; people like your wife are wonderful, strong in the gospel who know and follow the basics. You're a lucky man and don't even realize it.

Its time to change your expectations or you'll both be miserable

Edited August 28, 2013 by mnn727

[classylady]

When it comes to technological stuff, my husband is brilliant. But he can't spell or write decently. I have a hard time imagining something in my head, and being able to put it down on paper. My husband does that remarkably well. I'm a great baker/cook. My husband can grill meat. I love to read and learn. But, not if it's about physics or math. I have a college degree. My husband doesn't. What I'm trying to say, is that everyone is different. Marriage is a team. And both of the spouses bring their own talents, strengths, and interests in making the "Team" work great. Just because my husband can't spell or write doesn't mean he isn't smart. He just has different talents than me. And vice versa.

In the book "His Needs, Her Needs", Dr. W. Harley mentions that conversation is an emotional need that some individuals may have. During courtship a couple usually doesn't have a problem with conversation because they are often gathering information about each other. "If your need for conversation was fulfilled during courtship, you also expect it to be met after marriage. And if you fell in love because your need for conversation was met by your spouse during courtship, you risk falling out of love if that need is not met during marriage." If conversation is one of your "needs", I would think that need can still be met, but it doesn't necessarily have to be met by intellectual conversation. I would suggest finding some mutual interests that you can discuss.

[Guest]

Kindness and intelligence are NOT mutually exclusive, there is no correlation between the two.

Which is it?

[Windseeker]

My wife completed her PhD, graduated from medschool, completed her residency in Internal Medicine and is now in a Cardiology fellowship. Myself? I have a couple semesters of community college.

It was a major concern for me when we got married; I knew I was not going to be able to discuss on a deep level the finer points of the relation of Subclinical Coronary Artery Atherosclerosis to Cerebral White Matter Disease. We also are very different when it comes to the gospel. She loves deep study of the Old Testament and when it comes to the Book of Mormon she loves getting immersed in the history and culture and is obsessed with time-lines of events. I am totally opposite, I could care less about all that and am focused more on trying to find Christ and his characteristics in the scriptures and applying it to my life.

From personal experience all it takes for meaningful conversation and intellectual connection is for each to love and respect each other enough to listen. It really is that simple. Treat your wife like a partner and share what you love with her. My wife knows I don't understand everything she shares with me and that if she sees my eyes glaze over and drool leaking from the corner of my mouth she probably has reached my limit. She's very observant that way.

Your wife probably has a lot to teach you if you will listen. The way learning ought to work is that the more you know, the more you know what you don't know and it tends to humble you and makes you more sympathetic to others. My wife for instance has shared with me meaningful conversations she's had with homeless, drug riddled, aids patients.

What is the difference between the Pharisee and the Savior when it comes to discoursing with others? The scriptures tell us that Heavenly Father uses the seemingly foolish to confound the wise.

I myself find it antithesis to the gospel itself if our understanding and knowledge of it creates a rift between us and those we love. The purpose of any gospel study should be to bring us closer to the Savior and make us more loving, understanding, patient and tolerant of others.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Windseeker

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon guenzo! Welcome to the forums. I hope you are doing well today! :)

I understand where you are coming from guenzo and I don't judge you for your desires. I understand the deep desire to be intellectually connected with your spouse so that you can share with them these wonderful thoughts, ideas, and impressions that you may have. Perhaps all of the other posters here have more wisdom than either you or I and perhaps it is true that this is a desire that should be abandoned.

For me, I almost can't stop thinking, pondering, and trying to see and find patterns in things. I like to know why something is the case. I want to get to the core of an issue. I also am one who isn't satisfied with just doing something halfway and this is my approach to whatever subject matter that I become interested in and I want to know all that I can about it. During all of this research, pondering, and thinking I come across things that I think are awesome, or truth, or principles that will improve our life, etc. and it pains me when I feel that I can't share this part of me with my wife. It is also true that it hurts because this is a part of me that my wife cannot or does not appreciate.

I know for me this isn't about me thinking that my wife is dumb or that I am better than her (although I have given in to this temptation in the past). It is really about having a sense of intimacy with my wife and this "intellectualism" part of my character is a major part of my identity and who I am and not feeling a connection with my spouse on this feels like to me like my wife doesn't really know or understand me. Right or wrong, these are my feelings.

But, I also understand this truth: During His mortality, Jesus Christ was more wise than everyone. While on this earth His superior knowledge and wisdom never prevented Him from having intimate relationships with others. From what I can tell, Jesus was able to have intimate and close relationships with those who were clearly His inferiors because He became interested in what the other person knows. He constantly sought to uplift and edify others. He did all things for the good of others. I am chastising myself right now, but get to know your wife as intimately as you want to be known. Focus your energy and power in understanding her and her needs just as you want her to understand and know your needs then trust in God and in the Spirit to provide you satisfaction.

Regards,

Finrock

[EarlJibbs]

Please don't say that because it is not important to you that it isn't important. We all find importance in different things. It doesn't make those things less important, just different. To look at it another way, what is the most precious thing about the relationship you have with your spouse that you would not want to find fulfillment in with anyone else?

I use some of your own words, but let us assume they are coming out of your wifes mouth?

Your Wife: "Guenzo, Please don't say that because it is important to you that it is important to me. We all find importance in different things. It doesn't make those things less important, just different"

Your wife is happy with (in your opinion) non-inteligent conversations. I think it is completely fair to let her know that you would like to have (in your opinion) meaningful conversations, as long as you understand that "miningful" to her may be different than yours. I know that my wife listens to my talk of certain topics with a smile and a nod. I accept that. I do not think her any less inteligent for not being interested or not understanding.

A few more questions, does your wife stay home while you work? How many children do you have? What types of presumable inteligent conversations are we talking about here?

I am not saying you are wrong in your feelings, as they are your own. But with the limited knowledge provided, I would say bluntly, suck it up and do your roll and try to make her the happiest woman on Earth. I completely assume that she has had her feelings hurt by all of this. I know I would, to know that my Celestial companion thinks me a dolt. Again, my opinion based solely off of what information has been handed to me.

Best of luck Brother.

Edited August 28, 2013 by EarlJibbs

[Mahone]

When you're dating someone graduating with a degree in History in a couple of months, and they can't keep up in a conversation about history, you have to wonder, particularly when you've only had the minimum number of history courses and don't really make history even a subject of casual study. And yes that did happen to me.

Slightly different but related topic: would you define knowledge as included in the definition of intelligence? Does your intelligence level increase with each class you go to because you've gained knowledge?

With your example, I'd personally say that said more about the quality of the degree she graduated with than her intelligence - I mean, she apparently graduated after all.

[Backroads]

To answer your basic question, yes, I do think that intellectual compatibility, if that is what you value, is important to a marriage. I'm not going to say you're right or wrong for desiring an intelligent spouse or whatever other quality you seek in a partner. I recall once hearing the advice to look for a mate with whom you can have a good conversation as when you get old that might be all you can really do. I doubt that advice is the ultimate sage wisdom, but it is good advice. Intelligence and conversation compatibility is important to me, something I looked for in a husband and is one of the reasons I married my husband.

Intelligence compatibility is not unimportant to a marriage.

That being said, you are thirteen years too late and I would daresay that, deep down, intelligence wasn't and isn't a must for you. You seem to be doing the right things by focusing on other qualities that bring you two together.

Also consider that she may have different intelligence than you. There have been numerous examples in this thread and I'll add one: my husband is science smart while I'm literary/art smart. Still makes for great conversations. I enjoy hearing my husband talk about science even if I don't always get it, and my husband says he enjoys hearing about books and whatnot (at least that's what he says!) Is there anything wrong with the two of you telling each other what you know? Teaching, if you will? Still can make a find conversation!

[Bini]

Clarification on my initial post: I basically was saying that no matter your differences -- you can find common ground and enrich your marriage.

I scanned through the thread and I think that's basically what most on here have posted. I would even add that most agree that intellectual compatibility is important. Has someone said otherwise that I missed? Anyway, as already mentioned, the dating/courtship process is the time to weed out the weeds. Once you make a decision, you've committed, and you put aside whatever differences you end up having and work through them. Again, that's what I think most everyone has tried to say one way or another. You can find common ground.

[Dravin]

Which is it?

If there is no correlation between being named Ted and liking show-tunes that doesn't mean that being named Ted and liking showtunes is mutually exclusive (cannot both be true). It means that being named Ted doesn't tell you anything about if they like or dislike show-tunes (I can get more technical if you want but I imagine only MoE is interested in a derail delving into the specifics of correlation). So, with that in mind his claim is:

"One can be both intelligent and kind and intelligence is not a predictor of kindness (or lack there of)."

Those two claims aren't incompatible.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Dravin

[WRGiant44]

While this is one thread where it is impossible to try to compare anyone else's marriage, and what it is that each individual wants and likes out of the other person, I do understand this - a marriage is like two overlapping circles. There is unquestionably some commonality where the circles meet - and some, if not a lot of that is essential for a good marriage.

But the absolute most anybody can hope for is probably about 75%, maybe 80% overlap. And for such a broad topic as "intellectual compatibility," I have to believe those numbers also hold true for a couple - the most compatible intellectually might reach 75%, maybe 80%.

The problem is that other 20-25%(+). While some of that is actually preferred (part of the "opposites attract" thing), there will always be some qualities, preferences, etc. in the person you marry you will wish (s)he had.

Invariably, those who have affairs seek out at least pieces of the 20-25% they don't have or get in a marriage. And after the affair has been going on for awhile and those urges have been satiated for a period of time (whether it is to turn into something else or not), what does the offending spouse discover? That there is often far less total overlap in the person they are having an affair with - and that they genuinely miss a lot of what their spouse offered.

Sometimes it isn't even a trait like a certain kind of compatibility - sometimes it is just actually knowing the person like few do - even to little things like how their spouse likes their tea or whatever.

Yes, there are some traits you may very, very well want or need in a spouse - things that are far more important than others. And if you know what those are, good for you - seek them out in a person beyond anything else. But you only get so many of those compatibility traits, no matter who you choose to marry - so choose them carefully.

And remember that there will be some traits IN EVERY MARRIAGE that a spouse will just have to be content to do without. Just enjoy and appreciate what you DO have - and never, EVER turn to someone else (opposite sex/affair) to fulfill what is missing.

[kapikui]

Slightly different but related topic: would you define knowledge as included in the definition of intelligence? Does your intelligence level increase with each class you go to because you've gained knowledge?

With your example, I'd personally say that said more about the quality of the degree she graduated with than her intelligence - I mean, she apparently graduated after all.

Actually I would say that education has very little to do with intelligence. That was kind of my point. Here was someone allegedly educated, and could quote back the right "facts" to get a degree, but no thought outside those narrow constraints was possible. She couldn't take principles and abstract them to anything else. It was memorize and regurgitate. This is not intelligence.

[kapikui]

Which is it?

Both. There is no correlation between the two of them. If they were mutually exclusive there would be an inverse correlation between them.

[drham3rd]

Develop common interests..that is the way to have meaningful conversations. Its perfectly okay for you to have a hobby like intense intellectual conversations and find an outlet like a common group of guys or a forum online. Just always remember your wife is your number one companion and work with her to find common interests.