Very similar but different

[Overcomer]

Hi all,

My question is concerning faith and works ? Is there a difference between what i believe and the Mormans believe about getting to heaven

This scripture describes well how we should live our lives and treat others .

Romans 12:9-10

New Living Translation (NLT)

9 Don’t just pretend to love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Hold tightly to what is good. 10 Love each other with genuine affection,[a] and take delight in honoring each other.

By the scripture I study I am lead to believe that only faith in Christ can save me . Having said that you will know if I have had a true born again experience based on the way I live my life after being born again.

I start with this scripture,

Romans 10:9-10

New Living Translation (NLT)

9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

Theses scripture reminds me that I can't work my way to heaven .

Ephesians 2:5-10

New Living Translation (NLT)

5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

Once again Romans tells me if I confess with my mouth and believe in my heart I will be saved . So I believe if those two things took place as I asked Jesus to forgive me of my sins and that I believe in the power of his blood I will be saved . I don't believe anything I could ever do on this earth could ever redeem me from being a sinner .

Thank God for the blood of Christ !

Having said that , works absolutely must follow the rest of my life , that's the evidence of being born again as stated in James 2:22

James 2:19

New Living Translation (NLT)

19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God.[a] Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.

God bless all and have a wonderful day.

[whirlieking]

There is nothing I can do to gain salvation. I rely totally on Christ.

That being said, we are taught in James 2:19 I think, that faith without works is dead. It has been my experience, that as I have confessed Jesus name, confessed my sins, turned to him and so forth, my belief and faith are manifested through those actions. As I exercise faith in Christ by obeying his teachings, I see fruits in my life, whether they arejoy or peace or happiness. I know I would not have received those things if it were not for Christ and if I did not believe in Him.

An analogy I like is a receiver in football. The Grace and Mercy of Christ is infinite and perfect. This would be like a perfect pass, a perfect spiral laid just in front of me. However, in order to "receive" the ball I have to do something. I have to put my hands out, focus on the ball, squeeze on the ball and pull it in. If I lose concentration, don't pay attention, don't even lift my hands then I will never receive the ball. It's the same way with the Atonement of Christ. On the other side if I do concentrate and put up my hands, but Christ never threw the ball, then I could do everything perfectly but yet I would not be saved.

In the Book of Mormon, we are taught that we are saved after all we can do(2 Nephi 25:23. In other words we just do our best, dont have to be perfect, be try our best to follow him and His infinite mercy will cover us and save us.

I am only saved because Jesus is our Lord and Savior, and there is no other way to be saved.

[Guest]

Works are a manifestation of our faith.

[Connie]

As per my usual response:

We are saved by grace through faith (Ephesian 2:8). And "faith, if it hath not works, is dead." (James 2:17) So if our faith is dead without works and we are saved by grace through faith, then works are a pretty important part of being saved by grace; wouldn't you say? Unless one believes that they can be saved with a dead faith.

Please let me know what you think.

[gfchase]

Let me start by quoting from the Book of Mormon and then add some Biblical verses.

2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Matthew 5: 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

James 2:14-20 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So you see we also believe that it is by grace that we are saved, BUT, we also understand that works are essential for we cannot be saved without them. There are actually numerous Biblical references as well as those from the Book of Mormon that teach the necessity of works but also teach grace. Again ..."it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Jerry

[Traveler]

I will try to make this easy - we are all redeemed through Jesus Christ - all are saved from death. For as in Adam all die and as in Christ all will be resurrected (saved from death which is the wage of sin - therefore all are saved from sin).

I guess some could or may deny the Christ but as I understand scripture -- every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.

Also as I understand the teachings of Christ - we can, by obedience to the commandments of Christ lay away "treasures" in heaven. I am quite sure that it is unlikely that there will be any "treasures" laid away for those that do not keep the commandments. Therefore, my recommendations are to believe in Christ and love him by keeping his commandments. I believe it is most unwise to teach any other doctrine.

the Traveler

Edited February 18, 2014 by Traveler

[bytebear]

I look at it this way. Jesus atoned for my sins 2000 years ago. Done deal. That's the grace. However, I need faith in Christ and will show that faith through my works. Jesus specifically speaks of baptism as a necessary sign of your faith. Does that mean it's a required work? Is it even a work, or an act of faith. But I do believe it is necessary to receive salvation. But all of that is moot unless grace is in place, which thankfully happened 2000 years ago.

[prisonchaplain]

Hi all,

My question is concerning faith and works ? Is there a difference between what i believe and the Mormans believe about getting to heaven

I'm waddling into this one. Salvation and entry into the heavenly realms is totally by grace. Attaining to higher rewards depends on faithfulness. Consider the parable of the talents, or the honors that martyrs will receive.

So far, no real differences.

Yet the LDS understanding of some of those greater rewards, include higher realms (or kingdoms) is different. On that, I'll defer to those better versed than this Protestant.

[Quin]

I'm in the "Good intentions pave the road to...." Crowd

I personally hate the idea of faith alone.

I've seen far too much, and far too many people, talk a really good talk... And then turn around and be awful.

To avoid heart wrenching stories... Here's a totally fictional not-that-bad example:

The movie Saved: Where one character is shouting that she's filled with Jesus love, while persecuting the other character, and throws a bible at her. With the other character's response being that the bible is NOT a weapon.

That scene has stuck with me, because it is so indicative of so much of my experience with faith-only branches of religion.

And those are the generally good branches.

Then there are the "everyone but us is going to hell. So they're not real people" groups who use their faith as an excuse to treat others worse than they'd treat a dog.

To be clear: There are amaaaaaaaazing, godly, wonderful people in every single religion I've ever dealt with.

But it seems like the ones that require no work, attract a lot of selfish people.

Quite frankly, I'm lazy.

If I didn't have to clean my house in order for it to be sparkling clean, I would never lift a finger.

What would be the point?

So I can empathize.

If a person has been taught that all they have to do is praise Jesus.

Well.

Why would they do anything else?

But I do have to clean my house, so I spend an hour or two every single durn day cleaning the sucker.

I enjoy helping people. I enjoy a LOT of the work that is required.

But I often wonder if I would enjoy it, if the people who had raised me hadn't taught me that that kind of work is necessary?

Because I also enjoy laying around on the beach alternating reading and surfing.

And a million other things that are all about me.

I wonder if all I had been taught was to have faith, if I would do the work?

Afterall, if I don't need it, why do it?

I was taught that I do need to work.

I believe that, with all of myself.

I wasn't raised LDS.

I was raised in a handful of other action-based religions.

For ME, the action is necessary.

If I'm not willing to work, I don't belong here.

And vice versa.

If work wasn't required in the LDS faith, I wouldn't belong here, either.

Q

[Irishcolleen]

Quin, I'm not sure you under faith alone. Anyone who truly has been born again is going to have good works because their love for Christ makes them want to have good works. If they are truly saved they will be loving to all people because they want to follow Christ and He said to love everybody. Their works are out of love- not fear of losing or not earning eternal life.

A person who has truly put their faith in Christ will strive to sin less and less because the are growing in knowledge of God's will as they have the Spirit residing in them. We still sin, because we will not be free from the effects of sin until heaven, but when we do sin we repent because we feel horrible knowing we have sinned against our Lord and Savior. We recognize that our sin nailed Him to the cross, so we don't take our salvation lightly.

The problem is there are many people who intellectually accept that Christ died for their sins, but they have not truly recognized that they are in need of salvation (ex: their sin isn't so bad) or they have to much pride to accept it (ex: they think there must be something they can do to earn it). Then there are people who are culturally Christian- they go to a church that preaches faith alone because their gma, mom, etc... have always gone, but the message hasn't sunk into their hearts.

These people give true Christians a bad name. If you would hang out with many of the people I know for a month you would begin to see what faith alone really looks like.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Irishcolleen

[MrShorty]

Been thinking about your post, Overcomer, and decided I would like to give my opinion.

So I believe if those two things took place as I asked Jesus to forgive me of my sins and that I believe in the power of his blood I will be saved . I don't believe anything I could ever do on this earth could ever redeem me from being a sinner .

Thank God for the blood of Christ !

Having said that , works absolutely must follow the rest of my life (emphasis mine)

As I have listened to Christians/Evangelicals on the radio, I have found some of the things they say quite interesting. One of the things I find interesting is the choice of words used where I have highlighted "must". Many will use words like "should" or "ought" or even "usually will". I find it interesting that many of them will specifically avoid any word, like "must", that suggests that good works are absolutely necessary. I expect this is how each one interprets the idea of "by faith alone". As LDS, we aren't bound by any loyalty to the idea of "by faith alone". It seems to me that the LDS view is one where salvation is obtained by faith, repentance, and obedience. IMO, the stronger your choice of word in that slot where you have "must", the closer you are to LDS thought. The weaker your choice of word ("should" or "may"), the farther you are from LDS thought.

Another interesting observation I have made. It often seems that we conflate the concepts of "by faith alone" and "by grace alone". As a non-Protestant looking from the outside in, I find it interesting that the reformers kept these two ideas as separate "solae." If I separate those "by grace alone" from "by faith alone", I think there is plenty of support in LDS theology for salvation by grace alone. One of my favorite phrases from the Book of Mormon occurs in verses where the people "did all these things, relying wholly upon the merits of Christ" for their salvation. Whirlieking's post I believe also shows that the idea of "by grace alone" is alive and well in LDS thought.

So, to summarize the current state of my thinking. I believe fairly strongly in "salvation by grace alone through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, and obedience" where repentance and obedience are necessary outgrowths of that faith.

[Vort]

Hi all,

My question is concerning faith and works ? Is there a difference between what i believe and the Mormans believe about getting to heaven

This scripture describes well how we should live our lives and treat others .

Romans 12:9-10

New Living Translation (NLT)

9 Don’t just pretend to love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Hold tightly to what is good. 10 Love each other with genuine affection,[a] and take delight in honoring each other.

By the scripture I study I am lead to believe that only faith in Christ can save me . Having said that you will know if I have had a true born again experience based on the way I live my life after being born again.

I start with this scripture,

Romans 10:9-10

New Living Translation (NLT)

9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

Theses scripture reminds me that I can't work my way to heaven .

Ephesians 2:5-10

New Living Translation (NLT)

5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

Once again Romans tells me if I confess with my mouth and believe in my heart I will be saved . So I believe if those two things took place as I asked Jesus to forgive me of my sins and that I believe in the power of his blood I will be saved . I don't believe anything I could ever do on this earth could ever redeem me from being a sinner .

Thank God for the blood of Christ !

Having said that , works absolutely must follow the rest of my life , that's the evidence of being born again as stated in James 2:22

James 2:19

New Living Translation (NLT)

19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God.[a] Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.

God bless all and have a wonderful day.

Remember this old fable?

A man caught in a sudden flood climbed to the roof of his house and prayed, "Oh Lord, save me!" Soon a man in a canoe came by and asked him to climb aboard, but the man said, "Oh, no, the Lord will save me."

As the water rose near the ridge of the roof, a rescue boat came to pluck him off the roof. But the man declined, saying, "I have faith! The Lord will save me!"

Soon the man was on his chimney, with flood waters raging only inches below his feet. A helicopter arrived, hovering over him, and dropped a rope ladder. The man waved the helicopter off, shouting as loudly as he could, "God will save me!"

Shortly thereafter, the man was swept away and drowned.

In heaven, the man confronted God and asked, "Lord, I prayed in faith for you to save me, but you let me drown!"

The Lord said, "My son, I sent two boats and a helicopter. What more did you expect?"

We are saved by grace. There is no other possible way to be saved. Only through the atoning blood of Christ, offered freely by his grace, can we hope to avoid damnation.

But when the boat comes, we are expected to climb aboard. That boat includes covenant-making activity, such as baptism.

Yes, we are certainly saved by grace. But when the boat comes and we wave it off, we should not be surprised when we find we refused the very grace of God that we claimed to be depending on.

[Overcomer]

Someone should have throne a brick and knocked some sense into his head ! Lol But maybe he knew more than we thought . The bible says the second death is the one to be concerned with .

[Overcomer]

Each time I dig and search God's word with a humble heart , I believe the eye of my heart see a litter clearer even though I use eye glasses ! These physical eyes just aren't getting any better. Jesus says a lot about the vision of our hearts .

John 9:20-25

New Living Translation (NLT)

20 His parents replied, “We know this is our son and that he was born blind, 21 but we don’t know how he can see or who healed him. Ask him. He is old enough to speak for himself.” 22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who had announced that anyone saying Jesus was the Messiah would be expelled from the synagogue. 23 That’s why they said, “He is old enough. Ask him.”

24 So for the second time they called in the man who had been blind and told him, “God should get the glory for this,[a] because we know this man Jesus is a sinner.”

25 “I don’t know whether he is a sinner,” the man replied. “But I know this: I was blind, and now I can see .

These verses are Awesome . Jesus all the way!

Ephesians 1:15-23

New Living Translation (NLT)

Paul’s Prayer for Spiritual Wisdom

15 Ever since I first heard of your strong faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for God’s people everywhere,[a] 16 I have not stopped thanking God for you. I pray for you constantly, 17 asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God. 18 I pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called—his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance.[c]

19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.

[Quin]

Quin, I'm not sure you under faith alone. Anyone who truly has been born again is going to have good works because their love for Christ makes them want to have good works. If they are truly saved they will be loving to all people because they want to follow Christ and He said to love everybody. Their works are out of love- not fear of losing or not earning eternal life.

A person who has truly put their faith in Christ will strive to sin less and less because the are growing in knowledge of God's will as they have the Spirit residing in them. We still sin, because we will not be free from the effects of sin until heaven, but when we do sin we repent because we feel horrible knowing we have sinned against our Lord and Savior. We recognize that our sin nailed Him to the cross, so we don't take our salvation lightly.

The problem is there are many people who intellectually accept that Christ died for their sins, but they have not truly recognized that they are in need of salvation (ex: their sin isn't so bad) or they have to much pride to accept it (ex: they think there must be something they can do to earn it). Then there are people who are culturally Christian- they go to a church that preaches faith alone because their gma, mom, etc... have always gone, but the message hasn't sunk into their hearts.

These people give true Christians a bad name. If you would hang out with many of the people I know for a month you would begin to see what faith alone really looks like.

Only in some branches of Christianity.

Some absolutely require works.

Many others take a far more literal interpretation of by faith alone.

I don't doubt you that your faith requires word and deed, not just word.

And, as I said, even if deed is not required, there are stellar people in every branch.

It's just not my cup of tea. :)

Which is why I'm in an action based based Christian Denomination.

It sounds like you are, also.

Hail & well met!

Although it is the odd man out to be action-based in Christianity.

In the religions of Abraham the TENDENCY for the requirements are

Judaism = Active

Christianity = Faith

Islam = Action & Faith

There are schisms in all 3 that go against the norm.

Judaism that requires faith

Christianity that requires action

Islam that requires neither faith, nor action, nor either.

But there really, really are good people in all branches & schisms.

Q

[ventura23]

Works are a manifestation of our faith.

what about "of ourselves we can do nothing"?