division/inclusion

[applepansy]

Over the last week I've been disheartened by the level of division I've seen here on the forums.

The beginning of the following clip (at Glen Beck's site) is a teaser for an interview Glen is going to do with Ruth Graham. I hope its ok to post this here. I don't really care for Glen's take on Winter's Tale.... but I couldn't find a clip of just the Ruth Graham teaser. Its at the beginning and ends at 1:10.

Her words are exactly what I wish I had thought to say several times this week.

I hope you'll listen.

Ruth Graham Teaser.... only first minute

[Palerider]

Over the last week I've been disheartened by the level of division I've seen here on the forums.

The beginning of the following clip (at Glen Beck's site) is a teaser for an interview Glen is going to do with Ruth Graham. I hope its ok to post this here. I don't really care for Glen's take on Winter's Tale.... but I couldn't find a clip of just the Ruth Graham teaser. Its at the beginning and ends at 1:10.

Her words are exactly what I wish I had thought to say several times this week.

I hope you'll listen.

Ruth Graham Teaser.... only first minute

That's very nice. I get concerned with the same thing. I know we are in the last days and to think it will or could get worse ....meaning how rude we are towards others is very frightening.

[Tean94]

Yes, of course we should accept everyone and not judge... However, we don't have to agree with and abide by the sinful actions that others make.

The issue comes from the action, not the desire. We all have desires, some for alcohol, some tobacco, some prescription drugs and some pornography, etc. The sin is in the action, which makes us unworthy.

So while we should include all of our brothers and sisters, we should not be accepting of their sinful actions, whatever they may be.

[applepansy]

Yes, of course we should accept everyone and not judge... However, we don't have to agree with and abide by the sinful actions that others make.

The issue comes from the action, not the desire. We all have desires, some for alcohol, some tobacco, some prescription drugs and some pornography, etc. The sin is in the action, which makes us unworthy.

So while we should include all of our brothers and sisters, we should not be accepting of their sinful actions, whatever they may be.

I completely agree. We should love them not exclude them because of sinful actions.

I'm not talking about actions, but words. Words can be very divisive. I'm going to work on being more inclusive.

[Wingnut]

Yes, of course we should accept everyone and not judge... However, we don't have to agree with and abide by the sinful actions that others make.

The issue comes from the action, not the desire. We all have desires, some for alcohol, some tobacco, some prescription drugs and some pornography, etc. The sin is in the action, which makes us unworthy.

So while we should include all of our brothers and sisters, we should not be accepting of their sinful actions, whatever they may be.

While I don't disagree with what you're saying here, I'm not sure it's what applepansy was talking about. I think she's referring to in-fighting, among the Saints. And particularly, among members of this website.

[Guest]

I'm not sure I undestand what you would call in-fighting.

Lately, JAG and I have had back-and-forth disagreements. Is that in-fighting? I don't see it that way. He has an opinion, I have an opinion, we disagree, so we go back and forth and back and forth about it. I have no ill feelings towards JAG and my posts are written in the same tactLESS manner that I write all my posts.

I say tactless because I gave up trying to figure out what polite means in a purely written, informal, fast-paced, multi-cultural, multi-lingual conversation/discussion among people who don't know each other.

[skippy740]

The difficult part here, is in how we communicate our thoughts... and how we choose to disagree with others.

Some posters will take everything and itemize every single point that you got "wrong" and just analyze it and hack it 'to death'.

Sometimes, it feels like "my interpretation is right... and that word doesn't mean what you think it means... you dummy." (Hey, guilty on this one on occasion.)

How to agree to disagree more agreeably... that would need to be the standard and the ideal.

But we are a public forum, where anyone can, could, and should weigh in on various topics.

One thing I am told that I wanted to bring up is that the new software won't have a "laugh" button. (No "groan" button either.) But just a "thanks" or a "thumbs up" button. Sometimes it can feel that the person who gets the most "thanks" is the one who is "winning". Hopefully that might change with the new software.

[Wingnut]

One thing I am told that I wanted to bring up is that the new software won't have a "laugh" button. (No "groan" button either.) But just a "thanks" or a "thumbs up" button.

That's a bummer.

[applepansy]

The difficult part here, is in how we communicate our thoughts... and how we choose to disagree with others.

Some posters will take everything and itemize every single point that you got "wrong" and just analyze it and hack it 'to death'.

Sometimes, it feels like "my interpretation is right... and that word doesn't mean what you think it means... you dummy." (Hey, guilty on this one on occasion.)

How to agree to disagree more agreeably... that would need to be the standard and the ideal.

But we are a public forum, where anyone can, could, and should weigh in on various topics.

One thing I am told that I wanted to bring up is that the new software won't have a "laugh" button. (No "groan" button either.) But just a "thanks" or a "thumbs up" button. Sometimes it can feel that the person who gets the most "thanks" is the one who is "winning". Hopefully that might change with the new software.

I appreciate your thoughts on this subject.

But... I'll miss the thanks and laugh buttons. A thanks or thumbs up button just doesn't say it. I don't think I've ever counted or looked at the number of thanks anyone has.

[Wingnut]

I'm not sure I undestand what you would call in-fighting.

Lately, JAG and I have had back-and-forth disagreements. Is that in-fighting? I don't see it that way. He has an opinion, I have an opinion, we disagree, so we go back and forth and back and forth about it. I have no ill feelings towards JAG and my posts are written in the same tactLESS manner that I write all my posts.

I say tactless because I gave up trying to figure out what polite means in a purely written, informal, fast-paced, multi-cultural, multi-lingual conversation/discussion among people who don't know each other.

I suspect this thread is born (at least in part) out of several of my interactions on this site in the last week. For some examples of "in-fighting," please read on:

(1) Just this afternoon, Apple and I were conflicting in this thread. While this could just be an instance of me sharing my opinion and others sharing theirs, being that I was making broad, generalized, and sweeping negative statements about a demographic group that includes many on this site, I completely understand why it would feel divisive, criticizing, and otherwise harsh. I tried to temper that by including my disclaimer and ending my list on a positive note, but I understand that it can feel personal (I'm really bad at taking things personally that aren't meant that way).

(2) This thread is fairly divisive on a particular issue, with some negative feelings on both sides.

(3) This thread devolved quickly, in part due to my and Vort's tangent, which was extremely contentious. But it was quite polarized even before that part of the conversation started.

These are just a few examples, Anatess, where things have reached a little beyond friendly and civil debate. We all see things differently, too.

In the years that I've gotten to know Applepansy on this site, I've learned that she is a very kind, sweet, sensitive individual, and seems to not like conflict. She's a peacemaker -- a highly valued quality. It's natural, of course, that someone like that might be more sensitive to conflict.

You, Anatess, enjoy the debate, the back and forth, the sparring. Someone who enjoys that engagement is less likely to be sensitive to it when it goes too far.

Me, I often feel excluded or ostracized in this environment because I have different ideologies and opinions than the majority here. Because I'm a minority in that aspect, I often feel the need to speak louder to make my point. Sometimes deliberately, and sometimes inadvertently, that leads to things getting out of hand.

None of this is meant to lay blame anywhere or to speak for anyone, just to offer perspective.

[skippy740]

The debate "sparring" is only good for helping another person to consider a different perspective... but it generally won't change anything.

That's the only reason I get into political & religious conversations. I want to learn and be open to what others think about it. I'll share a few ideas for them to consider, but that's it. I don't "hammer it out for the win".

Sometimes, when I'm being "sparred with" (or at least when it feels like it), I'll only take ONE point of the other's post and make a point on IT, rather than every little thing. I get tired of it, and my A.D.D. won't let me focus on more than one point at a time anyway. :)

[EarlJibbs]

I appreciate your thoughts on this subject.

But... I'll miss the thanks and laugh buttons. A thanks or thumbs up button just doesn't say it. I don't think I've ever counted or looked at the number of thanks anyone has.

I guess we will just have to start replying with "EarlJibbs thanks you for this post" and "EarlJibbs laughed at what you said" but expound on it a little.

Maybe we can start posting in third party like that as well? "EarlJibbs doesn't agree with your post, but respects it" "EarlJibbs slightly giggled out loud when you said that"

AS for the OP, I just had get used to different opinions. Coming here means that I am not talking to people I feel think just like me in my own circles. But I have come to appreciate that. I am pretty sure that the first times that I posted I got into it with Anatess, well at least I thought we were fighting, it turned out that only I was. Unless you are used to taking any kind of advice or hearing thoughts from all sorts of people, online forums may not be for everyone.

[applepansy]

I suspect this thread is born (at least in part) out of several of my interactions on this site in the last week. For some examples of "in-fighting," please read on:

Only in part.

None of this is meant to lay blame anywhere or to speak for anyone, just to offer perspective.

Exactly.

[applepansy]

I guess we will just have to start replying with "EarlJibbs thanks you for this post" and "EarlJibbs laughed at what you said" but expound on it a little.

Maybe we can start posting in third party like that as well? "EarlJibbs doesn't agree with your post, but respects it" "EarlJibbs slightly giggled out loud when you said that"

AS for the OP, I just had get used to different opinions. Coming here means that I am not talking to people I feel think just like me in my own circles. But I have come to appreciate that. I am pretty sure that the first times that I posted I got into it with Anatess, well at least I thought we were fighting, it turned out that only I was. Unless you are used to taking any kind of advice or hearing thoughts from all sorts of people, online forums may not be for everyone.

I agree completely and I wish there was a laugh and thank you button for your post. :)

I've been posting in forums for 15+ years. I've seen some pretty heated things. What bothers me is when unfair judgements are made or a thread dissolves in name calling or perceived name calling. There has been a bit of that this past week. And often over the years I've been posting here. But...

Maybe its just me. I'm sensitive to contention. Physically sensitive, not just emotionally. It just seems there has been more contention leading to division lately.

[Guest]

I guess we will just have to start replying with "EarlJibbs thanks you for this post" and "EarlJibbs laughed at what you said" but expound on it a little.

Maybe we can start posting in third party like that as well? "EarlJibbs doesn't agree with your post, but respects it" "EarlJibbs slightly giggled out loud when you said that"

AS for the OP, I just had get used to different opinions. Coming here means that I am not talking to people I feel think just like me in my own circles. But I have come to appreciate that. I am pretty sure that the first times that I posted I got into it with Anatess, well at least I thought we were fighting, it turned out that only I was. Unless you are used to taking any kind of advice or hearing thoughts from all sorts of people, online forums may not be for everyone.

Just for the record, if I'm fighting with you, you'll get a PM. Which reminds me, I sent Vort a PM not too long ago - Vort, did you get it?

I got my feelings hurt (not an easy task, I tell ya) in that thread about Gay Appreciation and I got snarky, so I sent a private apology to Vort via PM.

So, yeah, EarlJibbs, I've never been fighting with you or anyone else... that I know of. So, if you thought I was, please let me know so I know to quit.

[Roseslipper]

The difficult part here, is in how we communicate our thoughts... and how we choose to disagree with others.

Some posters will take everything and itemize every single point that you got "wrong" and just analyze it and hack it 'to death'.

Sometimes, it feels like "my interpretation is right... and that word doesn't mean what you think it means... you dummy." (Hey, guilty on this one on occasion.)

How to agree to disagree more agreeably... that would need to be the standard and the ideal.

But we are a public forum, where anyone can, could, and should weigh in on various topics.

One thing I am told that I wanted to bring up is that the new software won't have a "laugh" button. (No "groan" button either.) But just a "thanks" or a "thumbs up" button. Sometimes it can feel that the person who gets the most "thanks" is the one who is "winning". Hopefully that might change with the new software.

Didnt know we had a groan button!!! No more laugh button or thanks button WHY?????

Most thanks is wining??? winning what??? oh boy!!!! Whats wrong with the thanks button or the laugh button???? Are the smilie faces staying????

Some times people on here do say things better left unsaid, theres no need to hurt someone's feelings!!!!

Edited February 27, 2014 by Roseslipper

[Roseslipper]

oh i just noticed we will still have a thanks button and were getting a thumbs up, why lose the laugh button??? guess we will have to laugh the old fashion way lol, or rflol.

[prisonchaplain]

FWIW some of the very interactions that can seem divisive and excluding can be the most important. If something is important to us we get passionate and vulnerable. Issues related to homosexuality and adherence to the words of church leaders tend to create sparks here. Why? Some are empathetic towards their gay friends. They want to see room in the LDS fold for these folks, somehow. So, they want to see more love and grace. On the other hand, some perceive a weakening of church standards, and the rise of what they believe is "cafeteria Mormonism" (I'll take the parts I like, and just ignore what I don't). They are passionate about protecting their church and community. So, the discussions will sometimes devolve into accusations of the traditionalists lacking grace, or the "gay allies" lacking orthodoxy. It's too bad that the conversations get derailed often. Nevertheless, I see value in the efforts to make each other understand. Though we often fail, I still wonder if LDS.net does these better than most sites.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I was just telling my daughter the other day, that part of the value of sites like this is that you get to "hear" opinions that are different than your own without getting into the heated arguments that sometimes arise here with your friends and family! :) I'm serious. For example, like everyone else I have strong opinions about the "Ensign" issue/thread that was closed, about gays, and about smart phones, etc. I tend to avoid discussions that might become controversial with friends because I don't like conflict. At the same time, when I am in the right mood, I really enjoy a good debate. So when I am curious, i.e. thinking, "Why would anyone support that?" or "feel that way?" I can "hear" different points of view here without risking offending my friends with the same questions.

I prefer civility in debate, but as Anatess pointed out, what is considered "civil" to one, may be vastly different to another when we are on a board with strangers from various backgrounds. So while the debates/discussions can sometimes become uncomfortable, I see a lot of value in the ability to come here and discuss things. :)

[Suzie]

what is considered "civil" to one, may be vastly different to another when we are on a board with strangers from various backgrounds.

I agree with this in part. By now, everyone knows that the way I think about certain topics is a little different from the majority of the members here on this site. JAG and I disagree in a lot of topics or let's just say we see things from a different perspective but as someone pointed out previously in another thread we always remain civil.

I must admit, not everyone knows the art of debating and JAG knows it very well and I enjoy debating with him.

As Churchill said "tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip".

In my opinion, a few people on this site lack the ability to disagree without becoming personal and emotional and even though I agree in part that we all come from different backgrounds, cultures, etc, I believe in most cultures, calling someone or implying that someone is a liar or an idiot just because they see things different than us is a no-no.

I have a hard time understanding the need of having other people agree with you. If I post something and someone disagrees with me and we entered a debate, why can't we keep it "professional" minus the emotional responses or personal attacks? You know, just exchanging views back and forth and trying to understand the other side rather than exchange views trying to prove the other person is wrong.

It is very hard to debate intellectually when the other side gets all worked up. Everyone gets upset at some point if they feel attacked. What I usually do is if I don't have anything else to say or I see the other person (or myself) becoming a little too agitated, I immediately remove myself from the discussion, thanking the other person for their contribution. I know it is perhaps not the best course of action, but is better than perpetuate the contention. Personally, I do not really care who agrees with me but I do care that others can understand (not agree) with my point of view so I try to ensure that I express my points properly.

When things get a little heated here it reminds me about when people use profanity in their language or they become loud and shout to get their point across, they do it because they do not know how to express themselves properly and they believe by using profanity or being loud the other side will have no choice but to listen and accept their point of view. It is actually a very common manipulation tool.

We have quite a few people who are very colorful in their speech and even though I believe it is a great talent to have, it can also be used to demean others, there are also others who will shred every little word you post and hack it to death... the thing is, what is the purpose of that? The whole topic becomes forgotten and the two or more people involved in the discussion take center stage which I think is the worst possible scenario that can happen to any forum. You want it to be about the topic, not about the posters.

We also quite a few posters who seem to think that we all should just accept everything they say, in whatever way they say it because "well, that's how I am" and even though I am all for acceptance, if the way we are posting is harming people in any way, shape or form then we should do a little introspection to see if some adjustments can be made to our speech.

We are always so worried about not spreading false doctrine here so new members don't get the wrong information, etc that we forget sometimes that people judge us and sees us not only for the information we share but by the way we interact with each other.

There has been numerous times that I stopped myself from replying because I just knew that certain posters would react in a certain way if someone dared to challenge their views because it has become a patter. It becomes a never ending emotional discussion and to be honest, it wasn't worth it.

The psychologist in me says there is a lot of people here struggling with a lot of frustrations, and of course we also need to add the fact that people in general seems to have a problem accepting that others just think differently and they are not asking for your approval and if you wish to enter a debate with them about their points, it is all good but keep it civil and professional and if you think you cannot do that, then why to enter such discussion?

Edited February 28, 2014 by Suzie

[EarlJibbs]

Just for the record, if I'm fighting with you, you'll get a PM. Which reminds me, I sent Vort a PM not too long ago - Vort, did you get it?

I got my feelings hurt (not an easy task, I tell ya) in that thread about Gay Appreciation and I got snarky, so I sent a private apology to Vort via PM.

So, yeah, EarlJibbs, I've never been fighting with you or anyone else... that I know of. So, if you thought I was, please let me know so I know to quit.

Yah, no worries. I have come to appreciate everyone's opinions on here. I know what I am going to get before I start reading.

This particular thread makes me want to tell each of you about what I look forward to when I see your names.

[pam]

I appreciate your thoughts on this subject.

But... I'll miss the thanks and laugh buttons. A thanks or thumbs up button just doesn't say it. I don't think I've ever counted or looked at the number of thanks anyone has.

Before everyone gets all worked up over this, the software isn't final yet. Many things can be written into it. Yes there is new software coming. But we are working to make it as similar to the forums that we currently have.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I agree with this in part. By now, everyone knows that the way I think about certain topics is a little different from the majority of the members here on this site. JAG and I disagree in a lot of topics or let's just say we see things from a different perspective but as someone pointed out previously in another thread we always remain civil.

I must admit, not everyone knows the art of debating and JAG knows it very well and I enjoy debating with him.

Great post, I agree.

I was referring to a little bit different aspect. For example, imagine you and JAG are debating, both of your are enjoying it, and neither is angry, but you are vigorous in your opposing views. That would clearly be acceptable to both of you, and many others. But there are some who are sensitive to conflict that might find that conversation uncomfortable. "Why don't you agree to disagree and leave it at that?" I am not in the latter camp, BTW, but I have seen that argument on other LDS boards.

Definitely name-calling is never appropriate, but there are other areas that aren't as clear. For example, I don't appreciate when someone insinuates that their opinion makes them more righteous than I--and whether or not they are implying that can be a matter of opinion--or pride. I'm trying to learn in circumstances like that, that it is my pride talking, and I should not worry too much about what other people think of me, only what the Lord thinks. It's one of the those times though when I feel like there could be gray area, and someone could take offense where none was intended.

[Guest]

It's time for a...

[Wingnut]

FWIW some of the very interactions that can seem divisive and excluding can be the most important. If something is important to us we get passionate and vulnerable. Issues related to homosexuality and adherence to the words of church leaders tend to create sparks here. Why? Some are empathetic towards their gay friends. They want to see room in the LDS fold for these folks, somehow. So, they want to see more love and grace. On the other hand, some perceive a weakening of church standards, and the rise of what they believe is "cafeteria Mormonism" (I'll take the parts I like, and just ignore what I don't). They are passionate about protecting their church and community. So, the discussions will sometimes devolve into accusations of the traditionalists lacking grace, or the "gay allies" lacking orthodoxy. It's too bad that the conversations get derailed often. Nevertheless, I see value in the efforts to make each other understand. Though we often fail, I still wonder if LDS.net does these better than most sites.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, PC. You've put into words what I wished last night I could express, even if just to myself. I had the thoughts, but couldn't fully form them. (Not just about "the gay issue" but many other topics discussed on this site.) I actually felt a tear roll down my cheek as I read this.

For example, like everyone else I have strong opinions about the "Ensign" issue/thread that was closed,...

I was hoping you'd check into the site in time to get to contribute to that thread. I was looking forward to your insight on it. Oh well, c'est la vie.

As Churchill said "tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip".

While I greatly appreciate your post as a whole, and all the observations you made in it and the thought put in, I just wanted to laugh a little at this statement. :)

This particular thread makes me want to tell each of you about what I look forward to when I see your names.

Start a new thread! Please! Maybe it can be a "what I look forward to when I see the name of the poster above me. I think it would be a fantastic thread, and you're right -- probably very needed right now.

It's time for a...

I'm totally feeling this. I needed this last page and a half this morning. I woke up super grumpy today, but now I just want to sing Kumbaya and Heal the World.