If prisonchaplain were an LDS bishop he'd tell youth not to date non-LDS

[Roseslipper]

Lakumi   u make me laugh!!!!   And I ty 4 that.  Laughter is good 4 your heart.

[Lakumi]

Lakumi   u make me laugh!!!!   And I ty 4 that.  Laughter is good 4 your heart.

 

I try

and yes it is, joy is hard to come by

[andypg]

Bishop Prisonchaplain, (has a nice ring to it) what if you are a convert and were already with the person before you converted and have that love attachment? In this senario the partner thinks (most) religions are silly but totally supports you if this is what you want and won't bring it up.

 

It's a question I've been having. One of the members of my bishopric thinks it's ok and he and his wife are always asking about her.

[Palerider]

As a father of 3 daughters I have seen them date members and those who are non members and those who are active in their own church. In this area the young men who were active in their church were Baptists. Due to the area where we live there wasn't lots of choices to date LDS young men. To be honest there were some young men who I wasn't all that crazy about. I talked with my daughters about dating and not getting involved in a serious relationship. That was an interesting conversation. They told me at their school if you dated around there were names and labels that you got hit with.

We also talked with them about going places in groups and keep in mind when you are in a group they tend to pair up. My reason for this was I knew if they went to a theatre to see a movie and people we knew saw them that I would hear how they were seen with their so called date. This happened too. Not sure if some made it a point to tell me what they seen because of my being the Branch President at the time and for some reason, my opinion, those Bishop/Branch President kids are always watched by others.

Our Stake is spread out for example our Stake Center is 90 miles away. There were times when LDS young men wanted to date a young woman in our area and some of us would put the young man up in our home so they wouldn't have to drive the 90 plus miles back home.

We encouraged our daughters to keep the LDS standards and we had our battles with them.

Here is how it all turned out, of our 3 daughters, two of them are married to LDS men and sealed in the Temple. Our youngest daughter is married to a non member. He is a great guy and he is not religious. He does not smoke nor does he drink. When they were dating my daughter came to me and said....You and Mom don't like ....... Cause he isn't a member. We told her that wasn't true. We do like him but what we don't like is .....he can't take you to the Temple and we have always taught you and encouraged how important a Temple Marriage is. I know the day will come when he will ask you to marry him and you will say yes. However, that's your choice. We will support you. She is still active in church and he does not stop her from going. He also encourages her to go. I appreciate that

I guess what I am trying to say here....you take the church standards/dating and as Mother and Father and decide what your going to do. I can tell you this....until your kids are old enough to date....it always looks easy until their teenagers.

We did the best we could. Our son is also married and he and his wife were married in the Temple. For us our son was easier to raise than our daughters. Wow. Lol. Hope this makes some kind so sense.

[Just_A_Guy]

I'd tell them they should only date people that they could marry.  We discover personality during the dating process.  However, if you know the fellow/gal is not in the Church, is not eligible to be sealed--why risk falling in love?

 

You're the Stake President, and the parents have complained that I am counseling too harshly, based on my opinions--not church doctrine.

 

How will you counsel me?

 

I'd tell you that as far as I was concerned, you're on rock-solid doctrinal ground.  Our youth manuals, at least up until recently, encouraged marrying--and, I'm pretty sure, dating--within a religion (I'm thinking of a quote from Spencer W. Kimball, but am too lazy to look it up).  An Ensign article from 2000 (I believe it was entitled "Agency and Love in Marriage") makes it very clear that love can be--if not created ex nihilo--nurtured, or extinguished, by deliberate action.  The rest is just common sense, and heaven help us if bishops are no longer allowed to use common sense when they counsel their ward members.

 

 

 

BTW, as LDS parents, would you want me to counsel my evangelical youth not to date your LDS youth?

 

I agree with Mordorbund.  Moreover, Mormonism is a *huge* time commitment that can easily become resented by a non-LDS spouse.  Even if the potential spouse is a "less active" Mormon; lapsed Mormons have an unpredictable and annoying tendency to return to their religious roots at some point in their lifetimes.

 

All this aside--as a church leader (whether LDS or evangelical), I might not object too strenuously if one of my parishoners merely wanted to marry out of the faith--but if they're planning on raising their children out of the faith; that's another ballgame altogether.

[mordorbund]

Isn't all this kind of moot anyway? Aren't we all rearing our children for arranged marriages?

[Lakumi]

I couldn't imagine my parents recommending anyone to me, that would be a disaster

[prisonchaplain]

Bishop Prisonchaplain, (has a nice ring to it) what if you are a convert and were already with the person before you converted and have that love attachment? In this senario the partner thinks (most) religions are silly but totally supports you if this is what you want and won't bring it up.

 

It's a question I've been having. One of the members of my bishopric thinks it's ok and he and his wife are always asking about her.

 

The Apostle Paul says to be the most loving spouse we can be, if we are married to an unbeliever (whether in our Church, or our Christ).  Who knows, he suggests.  We just might win them over.  If not, it's still the best way to live peaceably.  On the other hand, if the unbelieving spouse cannot handle the conversion, and asks to leave, Paul says to let them go.  Again, we are called to live in peace.

[prisonchaplain]

In reading Palerider's experiences, I came to wonder if intermarriage with a religiously unaffiliated, but open-minded, person works better than marriage to one actively involved in a different religion.  It's not ideal, but on a case by case basis, I could see it as preferable. 

 

Now, here's my bombshell:  I wonder of the ease with which we allow our children to marry those of other religions has had a part in society's embrace of same-sex marriage today.  Quite a stretch?  Consider the children of Israel--especially in Judges.  Over and over again we read that the children would marry the local Canaanites, begin to worship their gods, and then judgment would come.  If we don't do our stuff right, why should broader culture's folly suprise us?

[mordorbund]

It's funny you mention that prisonchaplain, I was just reading Exodus on this topic (Leviticus is more clear-cut, but Exodus has a certain ring to it). The Lord warns them if "thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, [then they'll] make thy sons go a whoring after their gods."

 

I don't know if you're familiar with mormonads (little motivational-type posters included in our youth magazines reminding them of our standards with associated scriptures and images), but I felt this verse was overlooked. I don't know what image to use for this verse, but maybe the text would be something like:

 

DON'T BE A WHORE!

Marry in the covenant (Exodus 34:11-16).

 

 

Maybe I should leave this to the professionals.

[prisonchaplain]

Morobund and I will both being seeing the Stake President.  The discussion will begin thusly:  You are both strong.  You stand on rock solid doctrinal ground.  BUT . . .

[Traveler]

There are two principles that I think are being missed.  The first is in understanding the dating process.  The second concerns a LDS lesson for leaders - which is to teach correct principles and let people govern themselves.

 

I believe we should deal with the two principles together.  Dating serves many purposes - it is not all about just finding someone to marry.  It is also a process of developing social skills - even skills other than being married.  Not only is dating learning how to deal with the opposite sex - it is also a process of learning how to deal with society as a "couple".  There are many things to consider in dating - for example: Is it better to date a honest and kind person of another faith or a dishonest cruel person of your own faith?  Pending on where one lives and what the social landscape is - can be more important than the consideration of individual faith.

 

I think the first lesson is to clarify personal values and teach consistent moral behaviors in dating.  If a young person does not understand their personal values (regardless of religious affiliation) they will have greater problems than dating someone of the same religion.

 

I also believe dating, especially during teenage years, should be fun as well as a learning experience.  I also believe that the more diversified the dating experience (dating many individuals) the more likely one will develop friendship skills, understand different personalities and come to realize what personalities we team up with best to accomplish good things.

 

Actually I think I see dating differently than most here.  In fact I would encourage dating and friendships with as many different individuals of many faiths, political beliefs and cultural background as they have opportunity.  Then when they are ready to consider marriage – to use everything they learned from their dating experience and make a smart intelligent choice understanding their own values – and to be sure to remember what they learned about what they achieved and learned relying mostly on their emotions and feelings during dating.

[prisonchaplain]

There are many things to consider in dating - for example: Is it better to date a honest and kind person of another faith or a dishonest cruel person of your own faith?  Pending on where one lives and what the social landscape is - can be more important than the consideration of individual faith.

 

This choice--between the good nonbeliever and the bad believer--is a non-starter with me.  I'd counsel against both.  "Better to be single and alone than to be married and wish you were alone!"  I know...I know...eternal marriage.  Yet, I'd double-down on my counsel.  Better to spend eternity single than sealed to an abusive, obnoxious spouse.

 

As for dating--our young can learn social engagement skills, interpersonal communications, tolerance for diversity, etc. from attending youth events, group outings, and perhaps some 'casual dating' in well-attended public places.  However, there is no need to engage in multiple potentially romantic encounters to learn about our own likes and dislikes. 

 

Mark this--prisonchaplain is more old-fashioned, intolerant, and narrow-minded than most.  Maybe it's because I'm the father of three gorgeous daughters.  I wonder if the fathers of sons feel differently.

[Palerider]

This choice--between the good nonbeliever and the bad believer--is a non-starter with me.  I'd counsel against both.  "Better to be single and alone than to be married and wish you were alone!"  I know...I know...eternal marriage.  Yet, I'd double-down on my counsel.  Better to spend eternity single than sealed to an abusive, obnoxious spouse.

 

As for dating--our young can learn social engagement skills, interpersonal communications, tolerance for diversity, etc. from attending youth events, group outings, and perhaps some 'casual dating' in well-attended public places.  However, there is no need to engage in multiple potentially romantic encounters to learn about our own likes and dislikes. 

 

Mark this--prisonchaplain is more old-fashioned, intolerant, and narrow-minded than most.  Maybe it's because I'm the father of three gorgeous daughters.  I wonder if the fathers of sons feel differently.

Not sure why....but for me in regards to my son dating I was more calm than I was with my daughters.

[Palerider]

I can also mention that sometimes when my daughters were dating they ran into situations with some boys parents who were Baptist and were opposed to their son dating someone who was a member of a cult.

[The Folk Prophet]

This choice--between the good nonbeliever and the bad believer--is a non-starter with me.  I'd counsel against both.  "Better to be single and alone than to be married and wish you were alone!"  I know...I know...eternal marriage.  Yet, I'd double-down on my counsel.  Better to spend eternity single than sealed to an abusive, obnoxious spouse.

 

This counsel (better to spend eternity single...) is also a nonstarter in LDS theology though because we believe that no unrighteous person who did all they could to obey will be denied exaltation because of things beyond their control. We are also strongly counseled to marry someone we are compatible with...so...choosing to not marry a jerk would certainly not be held against us as a "You had your chance" sort of thing.  Along the same lines, the choice between a good nonbeliever and a bad believer is also a nonstarter in that the righteous person married to either will still be blessed with exaltation. Regardless, I am in complete agreement that I would counsel against both. Find a good believer. Period.

 

As for dating--our young can learn social engagement skills, interpersonal communications, tolerance for diversity, etc. from attending youth events, group outings, and perhaps some 'casual dating' in well-attended public places.  However, there is no need to engage in multiple potentially romantic encounters to learn about our own likes and dislikes. 

 

Completely agree. In point of fact, the interactions I have with my wife, both good and bad, are significantly more influenced by the interactions I had with my brothers and sisters growing up than by any dating I did. Moreover, learning about our own likes and dislikes is significantly less important to a good marriage than A. Learning to be selfless and righteous, and B. Choosing someone who is selfless and righteous. Speaking to this is the stereotype of good girls liking bad boys. They may "like" the bad boys. They may dislike the clean cut nerdy religious boys. But if they marry the bad instead of the good their likes will have little to do with the quality of their marriage in the long run.

 

Mark this--prisonchaplain is more old-fashioned, intolerant, and narrow-minded than most. 

 

You need to meet more Mormons.

[mordorbund]

PrisonChaplain, if I may pry...

 

What then is your family's standard for dating options? And is it the same that you would counsel your congregation?

 

Specifically, would you counsel to only date within AofG? or would you broaden it to anyone that still falls under the broad evangelical umbrella? Or would it need to be your particular subset of evangelicality (that's a word, right?)?

 

For the sake of the discussion, let's assume all suitors, courters, daters, etc, are all devout in their faith.

[The Folk Prophet]

...evangelicality (that's a word, right?)?

 

Why yes. Yes it is.

 

evangelicality

[prisonchaplain]

PrisonChaplain, if I may pry...

 

What then is your family's standard for dating options? And is it the same that you would counsel your congregation?

 

Specifically, would you counsel to only date within AofG? or would you broaden it to anyone that still falls under the broad evangelical umbrella? Or would it need to be your particular subset of evangelicality (that's a word, right?)?

 

For the sake of the discussion, let's assume all suitors, courters, daters, etc, are all devout in their faith.

 

Fair questions.  My preference would be for my daughters to date and marry "Spirit-filled" (i.e. Pentecostal) Christians.  However, my counsel would be that they date/marry men (I have all girls) who would either join their church, or who are active in churches they could be at peace with joining.  For the congregation, I simply tell members they should encourage their youth to marry "Believers."  That implies one who is truly 'born again.'  Of course my congregations are prison chapels, so they are not denomination-specific. 

[Quin]

We're in a bit of a pickle at the moment... As there's no one my son COULD date in the church... Where we live.

Wards reformed, and we've ended up in what is essentially a toddler & mission prep ward. There are 3 or 4 teens (18yo guys getting ready to leave), and a good 30-40 toddlers. And my boyo. Actually, that's causing some other stresses, but putting our current reality aside.

Full Disclosure : We're not quite there, yet.

16 is around the corner... But if there's one thing I've learned parenting; What I INTEND to do, versus what I ACTUALLY are often radically different creatures, and even 180 from time to time.

That aside, dating is on my mind, as people keep pestering ME to (yuck), and my kids are getting there sooner rather than later (holy smokes).

So.

Assuming

- We lived in an area where there WERE mormon girls his age

- AND he got on with any of them

I still don't know if I'd encourage him to date LDS girls at all, much less exclusively.

Not that I'd discourage dating LDS girls.

If he wanted to, that's fine.

Molto bene, pura vida, mazel tav.

But more in that I'm a strong advocate of working without a net in teen years.

Meaning I don't wake teens up. (Better late to highschool than work or college classes, learn how to get up, and learn how to CYA when you are late).

I give them "real" money to work with (rent, utilities, sports, etc...they have to budget it)

In other words...I encourage failure.

Because I want it gotten out of the way while

- they're still young enough to lessen the problems

- they're still young enough to lissen ta mama with my mentor hat on

- they actually DO have a safety net -in me- even though I rarely use it.

They're going to fail when these things come up for the first time.

Everyone does.

& part of how I want to get them ready for the world is by having learned from those mistakes already.

So you've got me thinking about that philosophy & dating.

I think, considering that most teen romances are short lived learning experiences... That I'd rather have them learn that dating people with different moral compasses is difficult in the JV league.

So that they're better able to judge who they date later on when it matters more.

If it WERE to be a teen romance that survives & progresses onto marriage?

Well, then I'd say she's probably pretty darn special.

And I'd hate to have forbidden it.

Either because he'd have listened and missed out,

Or because my forbidding pushed him into a R&J relationship he'd have ended ages before.

In all honestly, PC, I just don't know what I'd do.

Because I haven't done it, yet.

But these are my thoughts on the matter.

Q

[Traveler]

Anciently there were many that thought it unwise and spiritually destructive for the religious human soul to associate with those that are not of the particular spiritual Jewish family.  For this reason the Jews thought that contact with those not of their spiritual family made them unclean – especially contact with the Samaritans.  When Jesus was asked who we should consider our spiritual family - brothers and sisters  (worthy of dating and marrying) – he responded with the parable of the Good Samaritan.  I honestly do not see any difference in the question of the Jews anciently asking who is their brother and modern Christians asking who they should date.   Jesus did not say – that only Jews (those of Jewish belief) should be considered.  His answer was not popular then or now.

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, God loves us all.  Every living soul has the potential for greatness.  However, your translation of "neighbor" to mean "spiritual family" is dangerously wrong.  My neighbor needs my love so s/he can find the way to salvation and peace with God.  My spiritual family can feed me and receive spiritual blessing from me.  I can look to them for prayer support and spiritual encouragement.  My neighbor, as I indicated in another string, may be the one I currently doubt will ever experience the waters of baptism.  I'll help any soul.  In some ways, the unbeliever may need my help more.  S/he is my neighbor.  They are not my spiritual family though--not yet, anyway.

[Traveler]

Traveler, God loves us all.  Every living soul has the potential for greatness.  However, your translation of "neighbor" to mean "spiritual family" is dangerously wrong.  My neighbor needs my love so s/he can find the way to salvation and peace with God.  My spiritual family can feed me and receive spiritual blessing from me.  I can look to them for prayer support and spiritual encouragement.  My neighbor, as I indicated in another string, may be the one I currently doubt will ever experience the waters of baptism.  I'll help any soul.  In some ways, the unbeliever may need my help more.  S/he is my neighbor.  They are not my spiritual family though--not yet, anyway.

 

PC.  From your stand concerning dating, I assume that you believe that for anyone in any religion to date someone of a different religion, regardless of any possible circumstance, is a sin and transgression against G-d and his wisdom and his word?  I am wondering if this is true divine doctrine or personal opinion?

[prisonchaplain]

PC.  From your stand concerning dating, I assume that you believe that for anyone in any religion to date someone of a different religion, regardless of any possible circumstance, is a sin and transgression against G-d and his wisdom and his word?  I am wondering if this is true divine doctrine or personal opinion?

 

I really cannot speak for other religions with much expertise.  For example, I understand that Muslim men are permitted to marry non-Muslim women (though Muslim women are not granted the same flexibility).  Christians are clearly commanded not to marry unbelievers (1 Cor 7).  It is not "doctrine" that dating should also be exclusive.  Dating was uncommon in biblical times.  However, most evangelical youth leaders I know would counsel against interfaith dating.  We do see dating as eventually leading to finding a spouse.  Why fish in forbidden waters?

[Traveler]

I really cannot speak for other religions with much expertise.  For example, I understand that Muslim men are permitted to marry non-Muslim women (though Muslim women are not granted the same flexibility).  Christians are clearly commanded not to marry unbelievers (1 Cor 7).  It is not "doctrine" that dating should also be exclusive.  Dating was uncommon in biblical times.  However, most evangelical youth leaders I know would counsel against interfaith dating.  We do see dating as eventually leading to finding a spouse.  Why fish in forbidden waters?

 

Not sure 1Cor 7 says all you claim but to give my honest opinion selecting a marriage partner is as important as selecting one's religion.  It is not that I disagree about dating - just that I am not sure that in such discussions that we keep the cart before the horse.  I would discuss this more except I am concerned in the forum that the discussion not be seen as as being critical.  Thanks for the discussion.