The Church is true

[MacDow]

Last week during fast testimony meeting many of the testimonies ended with the statement " I know the church is true" I found what that means can be different things to different people depending on factors such as age, maturity, wether one is a life long member or convet ect.......

 

My question is what does this phrase mean to you? To start off I will share what this statement means to me.

 

I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds within it the oridinances neccisary for salvation and the authority from God to perform said ordiances. I know that the Book of Mormon is scripture and was translated by the spirit of revelation. I know Joseph Smith was called to restore the church that Jesus Christ established during his mortal ministry. I struggle with many of the cultural components of this church. I sometimes don't fit in becasue of my political leanings but my word I love this church and the members.

 

So, If you would please share what this means to you. This has really been on my mind a lot and want to get peoples thoughts and feelings.

[Lakumi]

I shy away from saying I know something, I believe in things.

For example, I believe in a higher power, I believe the Book of Mormon has great things to teach people (as does The Bible, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants).

My father always taught me that scripture, even if they weren't true from a historical sense (this came up when I asked about the flood story) they still could teach someone somehing. I, like he, believe they are stories that, may be passed down from a greater being then ourselves (I refuse to think we are alone in the universe, that's a selfish, stupid idea-that we are the best) and can teach us many things if we open our eyes and minds to them.

I can't read scripture like I read other books or the words just vanish as soon as they came.

I don't know much about the culture, I am not at all a people person and I constantly argue with authority.

Church and I don't mix (a lot of things and I don't mix), but I have the scriptures which I do read daily and give my rambling prayers to God.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Last week during fast testimony meeting many of the testimonies ended with the statement " I know the church is true" I found what that means can be different things to different people depending on factors such as age, maturity, wether one is a life long member or convet ect.......

 

My question is what does this phrase mean to you? To start off I will share what this statement means to me.

 

I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds within it the oridinances neccisary for salvation and the authority from God to perform said ordiances. I know that the Book of Mormon is scripture and was translated by the spirit of revelation. I know Joseph Smith was called to restore the church that Jesus Christ established during his mortal ministry. I struggle with many of the cultural components of this church. I sometimes don't fit in becasue of my political leanings but my word I love this church and the members.

 

So, If you would please share what this means to you. This has really been on my mind a lot and want to get peoples thoughts and feelings.

Gospel Principles chapter 41; "The Church is organized in the spirit world, and priesthood holders continue their responsibilities there (see D&C 138:30). President Wilford Woodruff taught: “The same Priesthood exists on the other side of the veil. … Every Apostle, every Seventy, every Elder, etc., who has died in the faith as soon as he passes to the other side of the veil, enters into the work of the ministry” (Deseret News, Jan. 25, 1882, 818)."

 

Article of Faith 6; "6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth."

 

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "cultural components".  If by cultural components you mean the organization of the church then one should gain a testimony of that.  If you mean by "cultural components" the imperfections of it's members, then one doesn't have to have any testimony of that but should have compassionate concern about their well being, growth and development, realizing that none of us are perfect but are striving together to become perfected in Christ.

 

We could have the same discussion about "family".  My family isn't perfect but I could have a testimony that the family organization is instituted of God and will continue in the next life. Therefore I could get up and give a testimony that I believe in family even when my family is not perfect. Belief in the church should be the same. I realize people mean to say "gospel" when they say "church" but I think for some, like you are suggesting - depending on maturity and understanding of the gospel, I am not bothered by people who state they have a testimony of the Church when in their heart they are talking about the organization that Christ established and that will continue into the next life, because I know they are not trying to say that the people in the church are perfect by that statement.  If anything it is a statement about Christ, as Jesus Christ appeared with His Father and personally restored His Church in the later days - that is what is included in the testimony of the truthfulness of the church.

[Quin]

Mine is simple.

True = Not false.

I do, however, believe in multiple truths... Including the kind of truth that becomes so personal & complete that it does not translate between one individual and the next. The multiplicity of "bests". What is true for one is not necessarilly true for all. What is best for one is not necessarilly best for all. What is best for my son may not be what is best for yours.

Which is part of what I love about this church. The catch-all is NOT "The ONE true church", but "This church is true".

Q

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I'm with Lakuni, in that I say, "I believe . . ." rather than "I know..."  (if it's good enough for the Articles of Faith, it's good enough for me).

 

I don't feel comfortable that I "know" anything.  But I "believe".  

 

When I say, "I believe the church is true." That would mean to me that I believe it is the church that Christ has organized for us, and encompasses a belief in the Book of Mormon, Priesthood, the Plan of Salvation, Joseph Smith and all the other modern day prophets . . . etc.

[Blackmarch]

true church means to me that God has given it authority to have or act within his authority.

I use "I know" with things that i have experienced personally. Which is to say, very few things.

[prisonchaplain]

When I, as a non-member, hear a member say, "The LDS Church is true," I understand that to mean mine is not--at least not in fullness.  Where some of my fellow non-LDS may be mislead is in failing to understand that a non-restored church is not necessarily a condemned one.  In traditional Christian teaching there is heaven and hell, right and wrong, Christian and not Christian.  So, if a church says they are the true one, we immediately assume they mean all others are "false."  If so, the others are condemend.

 

Today, I do not hear all of that.  It's more like when I say I am a "Spirit-filled" Christian, or I believe in the "full gospel."  I do not deny that other Christians walk with the Spirit.  I do not mean that others are lacking a sufficient gospel.  Instead, I believe that my church allows a free reign of the Holy Spirit that most others would attempt to restrict.  I mean that we not only preach salvation, we pray for the sick, and may even cast out a demon, if need be.

 

Initially others were offended by our claims to the "full gospel" and to being "Spirit-filled."  They thought we were saying they did not have the Spirit at all, and that their gospel was empty.  Today most Christians acknowledge our orthodoxy, and even admit that the manifestations of God we see are authentic.

 

Personally, I would not bother with hesitating to make the statement.  Further, I argue against saying "I believe."  It implies an uncertainty, or at least an unwillingness to defend the statement.  If it's your faith, proclaim it confidently.  If someone wants to take offense, but asks you how you could say such a thing, then tell them.  Be kind but confident, and let agency do the rest.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

When I, as a non-member, hear a member say, "The LDS Church is true," I understand that to mean mine is not--at least not in fullness.  Where some of my fellow non-LDS may be mislead is in failing to understand that a non-restored church is not necessarily a condemned one.  In traditional Christian teaching there is heaven and hell, right and wrong, Christian and not Christian.  So, if a church says they are the true one, we immediately assume they mean all others are "false."  If so, the others are condemend.

 

Thanks for clarifying that PC.  I certainly don't mean to imply that other churches are condemned.  I think there is much truth, and some wonderful people in all of them.  :)

 

When I was in a particularly dark place, and I couldn't find the answers that I was searching for in the church...I started looking in other religions.  I found a couple mentors I really respect.  One is Pastor Ernie Hess of the Covenant Presbyterian church.  His sermons (I listened to them on podcast) are so Christ-centered, and that was just what I needed.   Two sermons in particular that touched me were one about anger.  He said it is okay to be angry, it's what you do with it that can be a sin.  And the other was about having questions, how that is okay  I wrote him and received his permission to quote him in my book (the second book).  

 

The other person that has really touched me is Fr. Thomas Keating (I don't know if Fr. is for Friar, or Father or something else??? He's Catholic).  I love his teachings about Centering Prayer, but also I was touched by his teaching, "Repentance means change the direction you are looking for happiness."  That helped me a lot!

 

My point being that we can, and I have find truth in many places.

 

About the "believe" vs. "know" thing.  You make a good argument.  But I'm just not there right now.  Spiritually, I am like someone who was in a terrible accident, who nearly died, spent months in the hospital, and then begins rehab to learn to walk again.

 

I am spiritually learning to walk again.  There are somethings that I feel strongly about, others I'm still working on . . . There was a time that I said, "I know".  Perhaps I will get back there again some day. 

[The Folk Prophet]

Which is part of what I love about this church. The catch-all is NOT "The ONE true church", but "This church is true".

 

Am I understanding you correctly that you believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not claim to be the ONE true church? Am I misunderstanding you?

[Guest]

Am I understanding you correctly that you believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not claim to be the ONE true church? Am I misunderstanding you?

 

Not to speak for Quinn...

 

But, my understanding is that the LDS Church does not claim to be the only church that has truth.  The LDS Church claims to be the only church that has ALL the truths that have been revealed.

[Traveler]

Last week during fast testimony meeting many of the testimonies ended with the statement " I know the church is true" I found what that means can be different things to different people depending on factors such as age, maturity, wether one is a life long member or convet ect.......

 

My question is what does this phrase mean to you? To start off I will share what this statement means to me.

 

I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds within it the oridinances neccisary for salvation and the authority from God to perform said ordiances. I know that the Book of Mormon is scripture and was translated by the spirit of revelation. I know Joseph Smith was called to restore the church that Jesus Christ established during his mortal ministry. I struggle with many of the cultural components of this church. I sometimes don't fit in becasue of my political leanings but my word I love this church and the members.

 

So, If you would please share what this means to you. This has really been on my mind a lot and want to get peoples thoughts and feelings.

 

To me the understanding of one true church is the same as understanding that there is one true G-d.  I do not understand why someone would say there is only one true G-d and then say there are many churches that are true.   I can understand that many worship "false G-ds" with some truth related to the one true G-d - so there can be many truths in Paganism, Buddhism.  Likewise I can understand that many worship in "false churches" with some truth related to the one true church.

 

Thus I see no difference in testifying that there is one true G-d or one true Church.  The problem is that many see condemnation in truth.  We should celebrate truth in other G-ds and other Churches as well as our own.  All truth should be sought for and celebrated.

 

There is another problem that is sometimes forgotten.  Even with the one true G-d and even in the one true Church - individuals can have problems aligning themselves with truth.  Lucifer was associated with the one true G-d and the one true Heaven and found ways to loose himself from the truth.

 

We like to think that identifying the one true G-d and one true Church is the great trick of eternity - sadly that misses the mark in my mind and according to my understanding - the trick is in constant seeking of all truth.  If one is seeking all truth - they will inevitably find the one true G-d and one true Church along with a great many other things.  But truth I believe to be most interesting pursuit - if one thinks they can pursue the truth church or true G-d without a constant pursuit of all truth - they will fall short.  It is not so much about finding truth  or G-d or a church as it is a journey of truth, the true G-d and the true Church - and in that journey discovering more each day about the true G-d and the truth Church as well as a great many other truths.

[The Folk Prophet]

Not to speak for Quinn...

 

But, my understanding is that the LDS Church does not claim to be the only church that has truth.  The LDS Church claims to be the only church that has ALL the truths that have been revealed.

 

Of course if you condition it with "that has truth," then you are correct. But it is undeniable that if you remove those tacked on words at the end that the church teaches that it is the only true church.

 

Edit: I misread...so I'll restate:

 

If you change the sentence around to "the only church that has truth" then you are, of course, correct. But it is undeniable that the church teaches that it is the only true church.

 

That's better.

[mordorbund]

Is it "the only true church"? or is it "the only true ... church with which ... the Lord [is] pleased"?

[Guest]

Of course if you condition it with "that has truth," then you are correct. But it is undeniable that if you remove those tacked on words at the end that the church teaches that it is the only true church.

 

Edit: I misread...so I'll restate:

 

If you change the sentence around to "the only church that has truth" then you are, of course, correct. But it is undeniable that the church teaches that it is the only true church.

 

That's better.

 

Yes, you're right of course.  I was simply trying to read what Quin was trying to say with her statement... I was thinking that the word "catch-all" in that sentence is important there.

 

We are the "One True Church".  But that's not just because we have the complete true gospel as what Quin was talking about.  We are the One True Church because of the Authority of the Priesthood.

[Guest]

Okay, let me answer the OP...

 

I know that the Church is true in the same manner that I know gravity is what makes the tennis ball bounce on the court.

 

Do I know that there's such a thing as gravity for a fact?  No... Gravity is not a fact.  But, as I can consistently get results by applying the laws of gravity then I know that gravity is true.  The same exact way I can consistently apply the teachings of the Church to be able to say I know this Church is true.

[andypg]

When I say, "The church is true" I mean it contains the fullness of the Gospel as it has been revealed, and it is still being revealed to us. That is not to say that I am saying there is no truth outside of our Church, but that it contains the fullness as it has been revealed.

One of my favorite quotes from a President of the Church comes from John Taylor:

"There were men in those dark ages who could commune with God, and who, by the power of faith, could draw aside the curtain of eternity and gaze upon the invisible world. There were men who could tell the destiny of the human family, and the events which would transpire throughout every subsequent period of time until the final winding-up scene. There were men who could gaze upon the face of God, have the ministering of angels, and unfold the future destinies of the world. If those were dark ages I pray God to give me a little darkness."

Terryl and Fiona Givens wrote a book called "The God Who Weeps". In it, they use poetry and words of non-Mormons to really show that there is truth all around, but in the LDS Church is where all these truths come together.

[The Folk Prophet]

Is it "the only true church"? or is it "the only true ... church with which ... the Lord [is] pleased"?

 

Implying that there are other true churches with which the Lord is not pleased? Seems at odds with JS-History 1:18-19. I read "true" in the same sense as "right", and "false" in the same sense as "wrong". There is only one church which is right and all others are wrong. That does not mean that they are completely wrong. It just means, as a whole, they are wrong. The only way to be the right (or true) church is to be completely right. There is only one true church and only one right church. The meaning of "true" is mathematical. Take a series of similar complex mathematical equations that claim to come to the same conclusion and ask which one is true. Even if they all contain elements of truth, only the one with all the correct methods, numbers, and mathematics will generate the proper response. That one, therefore, is the true equation. The elements of truth in the others do not render them true. The fact that the Lord is well pleased with the right and true church is incidental to the meaning, imo. 

[Lakumi]

Okay, let me answer the OP...

 

I know that the Church is true in the same manner that I know gravity is what makes the tennis ball bounce on the court.

 

Do I know that there's such a thing as gravity for a fact?  No... Gravity is not a fact.  But, as I can consistently get results by applying the laws of gravity then I know that gravity is true.  The same exact way I can consistently apply the teachings of the Church to be able to say I know this Church is true.

 

no gravity is a fact, not a belief, I have blood-that's a fact. I fall out of a tree, I'll hit the ground-that's a fact.

it's not there to prove itself to you-its there if you want it or not.

like wind or lightning.

the church and religion is ultimately built on faith because the methods we use to find fact cannot be used on it.

To say something isn't a fact means you can prove it wrong, there's no proving gravity wrong.

There is no ultimate proof everyone can see or feel, or whatever, with religion, there is with things like gravity and cold and etc

[The Folk Prophet]

no gravity is a fact, not a belief, I have blood-that's a fact. I fall out of a tree, I'll hit the ground-that's a fact.

it's not there to prove itself to you-its there if you want it or not.

like wind or lightning.

the church and religion is ultimately built on faith because the methods we use to find fact cannot be used on it.

To say something isn't a fact means you can prove it wrong, there's no proving gravity wrong.

There is no ultimate proof everyone can see or feel, or whatever, with religion, there is with things like gravity and cold and etc

 

Hey Lakumi, I agree with you! Mostly. :) Except with the last sentence.

[Lakumi]

If there was a simple, ultimate proof you could show someone-and there'd be no conflict or "but I donno's" like gravity, I can show that to you and you know it exists, you can't just show someone the idea of religion and such and they'll believe.

But I'd like to know what you think of that area before I go on what I think.

[Traveler]

no gravity is a fact, not a belief, I have blood-that's a fact. I fall out of a tree, I'll hit the ground-that's a fact.

it's not there to prove itself to you-its there if you want it or not.

like wind or lightning.

the church and religion is ultimately built on faith because the methods we use to find fact cannot be used on it.

To say something isn't a fact means you can prove it wrong, there's no proving gravity wrong.

There is no ultimate proof everyone can see or feel, or whatever, with religion, there is with things like gravity and cold and etc

 

As a scientist - I believe that truth of G-d and religion are just as much a fact as truth of gravity or electrons.   That there are discrepancies in what we think gravity is (or electrons) and what we observe in all cases to be the isotropic reality.  That inconsistencies that we may think we discover is not inconsistencies in reality but rather our perception of reality.

 

I submit that the reality of G-d is necessary for justice.  If someone believes in justice then there must be a just G-d.  If someone does not believe in justice - the consequence of such a belief is quite scary (including the possibility of a unjust G-d) - especially if you are on one insisting such is your intended or desired understanding.  The idea that someone intends to create their entire structure of all things and their understanding of all things based in injustice leaves me wondering that benefit they think there is to considering such an intellectual construct?

[The Folk Prophet]

If there was a simple, ultimate proof you could show someone-and there'd be no conflict or "but I donno's" like gravity, I can show that to you and you know it exists, you can't just show someone the idea of religion and such and they'll believe.

But I'd like to know what you think of that area before I go on what I think.

 

Well, your first statement did not include the word "simple" and set up the word "no" as a compete concept. There are no simple proofs. With that I agree. There is no ultimate proof? I disagree. But no man can show another that proof because it is beyond man to do so. Each must seek it on their own. But everyone can, ultimately, receive that proof.

[Lakumi]

It always annoyed me there was no simple proof in religion when there was in other things, at least that's how my mind sees it-it could be the simplest thing in the world for other people.

Trusting my feelings is the worst thing I could possibly do!

[Traveler]

It always annoyed me there was no simple proof in religion when there was in other things, at least that's how my mind sees it-it could be the simplest thing in the world for other people.

Trusting my feelings is the worst thing I could possibly do!

 

Really???? do you think there is a simple proof of electrons, or photons?  Simpler than a proof that there is a G-d.  I submit that it is easier to believe in G-d than the current theory of electrons or photons.

 

Before I begin such a proof - do you believe in evolution?  Do you also believe that anything that can happen can be engineered or made to happen?

[The Folk Prophet]

It always annoyed me there was no simple proof in religion when there was in other things, at least that's how my mind sees it-it could be the simplest thing in the world for other people.

Trusting my feelings is the worst thing I could possibly do!

 

To be clear, I'm not talking about "feelings".

 

And if the spiritual proof were simple there would be no test to life and the entire purpose of our being here would be thwarted.