Three "truths"?


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Three ideas:

 

1.       Our spirits are made of matter (D&C 131:7)

2.       Our spirits are gnolaum – that is, without beginning or end (Abraham 3:18)

3.       Matter had a beginning, only coming into existence sometime after the Big Bang

 

Can these statements be reconciled with each other ? If so, how? If not, which one is not true or needs to be reinterpreted/reconstructured?

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Three ideas:

 

1.       Our spirits are made of matter (D&C 131:7)

2.       Our spirits are gnolaum – that is, without beginning or end (Abraham 3:18)

3.       Matter had a beginning, only coming into existence sometime after the Big Bang

 

Can these statements be reconciled with each other ? If so, how? If not, which one is not true or needs to be reinterpreted/reconstructured?

 

No scientist worth his salt is going to claim that matter had a beginning, let alone that it began sometime after the Big Bang...

 

I mean c'mon... what do you think "banged!"?

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What Anatess said, there need be no reconciliation. To my knowledge energy cannot be created or destroyed. Matter can be transformed into energy and energy can be transformed into matter.

The big bang theory holds that all of the matter, all of it, was contained in one spot, smaller than a sub atomic particle. It doesn't talk about creating matter. To my knowledge.

Edited by jerome1232
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Saying our spirits are (currently) made of matter doesn't imply they are contingent upon that matter.

 

If I go to the beach and use a bunch of rocks to spell out "2 + 2 = 4" in the sand, does that mean mathematical truths began their existence with the big bang?

 

Actually, this is a bad example, because I've read that some physicists actually do believe that parallel universes exist where the Pythagorean Theorem is false, for example.  Of course, I'd have to be born in a universe where math is hard.

 

Besides, isn't matter an illusion?  I thought what we call matter is actually infinitesimally tiny strings that vibrate in nine dimensions, or something incomprehensible like that.

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Three ideas:

 

1.       Our spirits are made of matter (D&C 131:7)

2.       Our spirits are gnolaum – that is, without beginning or end (Abraham 3:18)

3.       Matter had a beginning, only coming into existence sometime after the Big Bang

 

Can these statements be reconciled with each other ? If so, how? If not, which one is not true or needs to be reinterpreted/reconstructured?

#3 still has yet to be proven, and god doesnt say anything about that.

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Scientist (especially mathematicians) has realized that there are serious problems with the Big Bang theory.  The religious community, in general, has been overjoyed with the problems but in not understanding the complexities of the problems had made complete fools of themselves trying to take ridiculous advantage of the perceived problems.  The problems in essence surround what we call initial parameters or preconceived conditions.

 

At the offset of the Big Bang theory it was thought that our universe is contained in a region that is described as one dimensional space time – which is also described as a singularity. This idea of singularity or one dimensional space time was given more credence with the discovery of Black Holes.  Black Holes in essence being various pockets of single dimension or singularity.  A noted and popular astrophysicist, Carl Sagan, concocted an idea for a novel that all points of singularity are the same time space, one dimensional singularity, in order to theatrically justify what has become known as worm holes.  There are other ways to justify worm holes but for some reason this idea got legs and has become the popular notion.

 

Carl Sagan’s theory of worm holes also presented a partial solution to the parameters conundrum of the Big Bang theory.  That is that the singularity that was the initial condition of the Big Bang theory could act as a conduit for our current universe to have come, not from the singularity but from the collapse of some other universe through the singularity to us.  We have since discovered that mathematically it works out really nifty for an eleven dimensional universe to collapse through a singularity to our universe.  But there are still missing pieces to the puzzle.

 

Two other classifications of Big Bang theories have also gotten traction.  One class is called the “Brane” theories.  This is the idea of multiple Big Bangs taking places as various (infinite) universes encounter each other – trading substances.  And the other is best described as the quantum anomaly Big Bang.  This is in essence an extension of quantum weirdness running off the deep end from the micro scale of particle physics to the macro scale of universe astrophysics.

 

It is this quantum anomaly theory that assumes the Big Bang came from nothing.  There are two problems for ex nihilo religious argument jumping on this band wagon.  First, the nothing of ex nihilo and the nothingness of “empty” dimensional space time are not even close to the same thing.  The other problem is very difficult to explain in layman terms but in essence deals with anti particles, anti energy and other “things” (like the Higgs Field) that have various effects on what we think of as stable space time and elements of matter.  None of which lends itself to well to the traditional religious concept of a “creator” of something wonderful and stable without some sort of pre-existing stuff.

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Three ideas:

 

1.       Our spirits are made of matter (D&C 131:7)

2.       Our spirits are gnolaum – that is, without beginning or end (Abraham 3:18)

3.       Matter had a beginning, only coming into existence sometime after the Big Bang

 

Can these statements be reconciled with each other ? If so, how? If not, which one is not true or needs to be reinterpreted/reconstructured?

There is fine matter and there is course matter.  There is nothing within our current knowledge that suggests the two naturally exist together.  Therefore any study about the "origin" of course matter does not necessarily apply to fine matter.  We have no real knowledge of fine matter, only that it exists.  We can't talk about it's beginning or it's real relationship to any known science or "knowledge of man" understanding of such.

 

Even when we talk about eventually earning a resurrected body (a physical body with the spirit body), it was only through careful and specific works that this could be done, not a "natural" condition related to spirit matter. Even then, we don't know the make up of the resurrected body and I would assume it would be made up of fine matter anyways. 

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Three ideas:

 

1.       Our spirits are made of matter (D&C 131:7)

2.       Our spirits are gnolaum – that is, without beginning or end (Abraham 3:18)

3.       Matter had a beginning, only coming into existence sometime after the Big Bang

 

Can these statements be reconciled with each other ? If so, how? If not, which one is not true or needs to be reinterpreted/reconstructured?

 

The reconciliation is simple. 3 is false.

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Ok, I'll bite, what is the "indirect evidence" for the matter that can only be seen by pure eyes?  (In other words not by scientists from a secular standpoint)

I don't know about *that* but it seems that there is some stuff out there producing gravitational affects which we cannot directly observe [the stuff, the gravitational lens bluring we can observe]. We don't know anything else really.  It seems like this stuff interacts with our "normal" matter through gravity only. I say "normal" because our normal matter may be a much small part of the universe than this other "stuff" that we think is out there.

We have a name for it which I mentioned earlier, dark matter.

Assuming it's has a nature like our matter, that it can be built into complex molecules, and assuming they'd be anything like our matters molecules, I guess it's highly speculative that a person can be made from dark matter and thus could interact and observe it?

Like I said, specualtion, a good grain of it.

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Are you saying scientists are impure?

No that would be judgemental. Simply saying that the science of man is impure as it is seen through impure eyes.

 

What has to happen to make our eyes pure?  Typically some kind of transfiguration such as when a person says something of this sort, 'whether I was in the body or not, I am no sure'.  Or they describe being 'carried away' etc. In other words, if the scientist is remaining in her normal mortal state, I would venture to say that things are being looked at while "in the flesh" and 'according to the flesh' which is by definition impure eyes.

 

This is not a judgement on the spirit of the person as that is a very different thing and sad that people would take it as such.  We all live in the world even though we don't have to be of the world.  We all live in an impure state even though we don't have to remain impure.

 

If there was a revelation as to character of fine matter I am sure it wouldn't come in the form of descriptions through impure eyes any more than I would believe that a person describing being abducted by Aliens proves there are Aliens.  It is at best a hypothetical description and not an actual experience.

 

If I state that course matter cannot detect fine matter that does not mean that fine matter cannot be aware of the course matter.  (Just in case someone throws out the argument that we are both spirit and body and so they have to interact) It could be a one way interaction, until the veil is pulled back but the "veil being pulled back" implies there is no natural awareness of fine matter from the perspective of the course matter.

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No that would be judgemental. Simply saying that the science of man is impure as it is seen through impure eyes.

 

What has to happen to make our eyes pure?  Typically some kind of transfiguration such as when a person says something of this sort, 'whether I was in the body or not, I am no sure'.  Or they describe being 'carried away' etc. In other words, if the scientist is remaining in her normal mortal state, I would venture to say that things are being looked at while "in the flesh" and 'according to the flesh' which is by definition impure eyes.

 

This is not a judgement on the spirit of the person as that is a very different thing and sad that people would take it as such.  We all live in the world even though we don't have to be of the world.  We all live in an impure state even though we don't have to remain impure.

 

If there was a revelation as to character of fine matter I am sure it wouldn't come in the form of descriptions through impure eyes any more than I would believe that a person describing being abducted by Aliens proves there are Aliens.  It is at best a hypothetical description and not an actual experience.

 

If I state that course matter cannot detect fine matter that does not mean that fine matter cannot be aware of the course matter.  (Just in case someone throws out the argument that we are both spirit and body and so they have to interact) It could be a one way interaction, until the veil is pulled back but the "veil being pulled back" implies there is no natural awareness of fine matter from the perspective of the course matter.

 

Just a couple of thoughts about seeing with purity.   Jesus taught that it is possible to have eyes perfectly capable of seeing but could not see.  Likewise ears perfectly capable of hearing but not hearing.  It may be a bit presumptuous to assume that there is no possible empirical evidence of spiritual things.

 

We also learn form scripture that "all things" created and that exist give testimony that there is a G-d that created our universe.  Thus it is possible that some will consider and study the new evidence of dark matter and dark energy and come out of their effort with greater understanding of G-d and his work of creation and salvation.  At the same time others may look at the exact same data and see no such possibilities?

 

Is dark matter and dark energy evidence of G-d and spiritual understanding of things.  Does G-d use the empirical evidences of physical things of our fallen universe to testify of truths including spirituals truths.  It appears to me that you are of the opinion that to believe such a possibility is at it heart and core the definition and essence of evil as put forth as the natural man in scripture - I am of a much different opinion - I believe that even our progressing spirit become more G-d like and pure by seeing the good in all physical things and empirical discoveries.  Purity is not so much as being able to see but to understand what it is we are seeing.

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Just a couple of thoughts about seeing with purity.   Jesus taught that it is possible to have eyes perfectly capable of seeing but could not see.  Likewise ears perfectly capable of hearing but not hearing.  It may be a bit presumptuous to assume that there is no possible empirical evidence of spiritual things.

 

We also learn form scripture that "all things" created and that exist give testimony that there is a G-d that created our universe.  Thus it is possible that some will consider and study the new evidence of dark matter and dark energy and come out of their effort with greater understanding of G-d and his work of creation and salvation.  At the same time others may look at the exact same data and see no such possibilities?

 

Is dark matter and dark energy evidence of G-d and spiritual understanding of things.  Does G-d use the empirical evidences of physical things of our fallen universe to testify of truths including spirituals truths.  It appears to me that you are of the opinion that to believe such a possibility is at it heart and core the definition and essence of evil as put forth as the natural man in scripture - I am of a much different opinion - I believe that even our progressing spirit become more G-d like and pure by seeing the good in all physical things and empirical discoveries.  Purity is not so much as being able to see but to understand what it is we are seeing.

You are changing the topic.  The OP was about relating the spirit matter to the Big Bang - to course matter observations.  The questions are related to whether these two types of matter had similar beginnings.  We are not talking about whether course matter can testify of God's creation or be spiritually enlightening to us.  The discussion is not about whether course matter things can help our spiritual understanding of things or not - of course they can, that is why we are here.  I don't think anyone would argue that point.

 

We are told in many examples in the scriptures how we may be able to see spiritual matter (not talking about understanding spiritual concepts). D&C; "

 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter."

 

What does the word "We" represent in verse 8?  Mortal man.   "When our bodies are purified" refers to what happens when we are not mortal man any longer, after resurrection.  Unless we have some resurrected scientist view about dark matter, I would suggest that in no way could be spiritual or fine matter. 

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You are changing the topic.  The OP was about relating the spirit matter to the Big Bang - to course matter observations.  The questions are related to whether these two types of matter had similar beginnings.  We are not talking about whether course matter can testify of God's creation or be spiritually enlightening to us.  The discussion is not about whether course matter things can help our spiritual understanding of things or not - of course they can, that is why we are here.  I don't think anyone would argue that point.

 

We are told in many examples in the scriptures how we may be able to see spiritual matter (not talking about understanding spiritual concepts). D&C; "

 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter."

 

What does the word "We" represent in verse 8?  Mortal man.   "When our bodies are purified" refers to what happens when we are not mortal man any longer, after resurrection.  Unless we have some resurrected scientist view about dark matter, I would suggest that in no way could be spiritual or fine matter. 

 

"We" cannot see radio waves either but thanks to the revelation given to mankind through Einstein it is possible to empirically understand and calculate that radio waves are just another kind of matter. 

 

Here are a few questions - during the 1,000 year reign of Christ will any mortals see any spirit matter?  Did the Brother of Jared see any spirit matter?  Did Nephi see any spirit matter?  Did King Nebuchadnezzar see any spirit matter?  Can G-d show man spirit matter?

 

I submit the the term "we cannot see" is symbolic of something - that may be missing from this conversation.

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"We" cannot see radio waves either but thanks to the revelation given to mankind through Einstein it is possible to empirically understand and calculate that radio waves are just another kind of matter. 

 

Here are a few questions - during the 1,000 year reign of Christ will any mortals see any spirit matter?  Did the Brother of Jared see any spirit matter?  Did Nephi see any spirit matter?  Did King Nebuchadnezzar see any spirit matter?  Can G-d show man spirit matter?

 

I submit the the term "we cannot see" is symbolic of something - that may be missing from this conversation.

It is not so symbolic as you think as it is described in the same verse 8, "when our bodies are purified" suggests that the "we" refers to those that do not have purified bodies.  During the 1000 year reign the bodies of those people obviously change from our current state as they do not die. As for King Nebuchadnezzar, seeing in a dream is not the same as seeing matter.  In any case, whenever there is a claim of seeing spirit matter and we believe it to be true, I would suggest there has been some kind of transformation of the body or of the spirit matter being viewed. There is no teaching that course matter and fine matter have existed together forever, just under temporary conditions do they interact.

 

In all those descriptions of spirit matter seen, take the brother of Jared for example, tell me, in your view, how their descriptions suggest "dark matter" is what they are seeing.  Please go ahead and explain that (The Folk Prophet needs this to be a little more entertaining). 

 

To me it would take a wild imagination to suggest that what they saw was "dark matter".  For that matter why don't we call it just about anything, how about jiggly matter (like green jello) that is just as likely.   Why don't we call it spirit goo?  Lets call spirit matter "midi-chlorians" for fun and for speculation - that would be just as correct as "dark matter" would.  As I "saw" it in a movie, it must be real.

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Seminary vs. Traveler Round 12.

 

:popcorn:

 

My mission president told us missionaries (many years ago) that there are three kinds of missionaries.  First there are the missionaries that get into their calling and make things happen.  Second there are the missionaries that sit on the side lines and watch things happen.  Finely there are those missionaries that wander around wondering what is happening????

 

Seminary is a wonderful and dynamic individual that is about getting into life and making things happen.  I'm just here to keep her honest and keep her sharp mind considering those things that may not be so obvious.  :D

 

I sincerely hope reading our "back and forth" is enlightening and helpful. Especially stimulating to investigate deeper in to what you believe and why.

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There are many topics that don't interest me on this forum that I simply read but don't make any comments.  There is nothing wrong with that.  There are times I re-read the scriptures and find something that I have read many times over that now has a different significance to me at this time in my life and maybe I only appreciate that level of understanding after I have enough of a foundation to build on. There are topics, obviously, that I discuss over and over again that others, I am sure, find boring.

 

Like my name states, I slept through seminary class, so now I discuss all the things I wish I would have before.  Thanks for the discussion. I mean that.

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It is not so symbolic as you think as it is described in the same verse 8, "when our bodies are purified" suggests that the "we" refers to those that do not have purified bodies.  During the 1000 year reign the bodies of those people obviously change from our current state as they do not die. As for King Nebuchadnezzar, seeing in a dream is not the same as seeing matter.  In any case, whenever there is a claim of seeing spirit matter and we believe it to be true, I would suggest there has been some kind of transformation of the body or of the spirit matter being viewed. There is no teaching that course matter and fine matter have existed together forever, just under temporary conditions do they interact.

 

In all those descriptions of spirit matter seen, take the brother of Jared for example, tell me, in your view, how their descriptions suggest "dark matter" is what they are seeing.  Please go ahead and explain that (The Folk Prophet needs this to be a little more entertaining). 

 

To me it would take a wild imagination to suggest that what they saw was "dark matter".  For that matter why don't we call it just about anything, how about jiggly matter (like green jello) that is just as likely.   Why don't we call it spirit goo?  Lets call spirit matter "midi-chlorians" for fun and for speculation - that would be just as correct as "dark matter" would.  As I "saw" it in a movie, it must be real.

 

My reference to King Nebuchadnezzar was not his dream but the "finger" writing on the wall.

 

As for dark matter - its initial designation was the "Great Attractor".  The reason was because something unseen was pulling the largest (at the time) structure (a super cluster of galaxies that prior to the Hubble telescope was thought to be a faint star) in the universe - a super cluster the wrong direction in the vast arena of distant space.  I would point out that the particular super cluster of galaxies was by itself bigger than what scientist believed the entire universe was as resent as 100 years ago. 

 

As scientist have studied our universe they have discovered another force that is expanding the universe at an ever accelerating rate.  They call this expansion force "dark energy"  Beyond observing the far reaches of the universe no one has found any other evidence of dark mater or dark energy.  They are called dark because they cannot be see by any means know - yet.  But what we do know is that this mater and energy is the single most dominant forces ever encountered that is directly involved in the creating and sustaining our universe and it is unlike any matter or energy we have ever before encountered. 

 

Are we seeing evidence of divine elements and forces at work?  If divine elements and forces are at work - isn't it about time we discovered some indication (empirical evidence) of it?  From your vast research - especially into scripture and modern revelation - what other possibilities are there?  What is moving and shaping our universe - G-d or something that is just happening by some sort of chance?

Edited by Traveler
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