Deplorable behaviour!

[lagarthaaz]

FFS - For F (insert expletive) Sake. I work with teenagers, I learn something new every day.

 

 

Classy. 

 

Boy, am I glad the internet wasn't so mainstream when I was young(er) and stupid(er).

[Just_A_Guy]

FWIW . . . as a missionary I killed rats, cockroaches, and at least one bat that were invading my living quarters; but I never felt the need to incinerate any of them (at least, not while they were still living).

 

I agree with the OP that the sister's method of dispatching the rat was frankly disturbing and more becoming of a mindless sorority girl than a minister of the gospel.  I doubt it's worth holding a disciplinary council or sending anyone home; but if I were her MP--yeah, I'd talk to her about it. 

 

And while the OP's tone may be a bit of overkill:  I, for one, don't think it's completely out-of-line for the OP to see a missionary pulling crap like that and then asking whether it's something the Church condones.  As Mormons, what our missionaries do in the field reflects on all of us.  That's why they carry the "white bibles" with them everywhere they go; and why even their dress and grooming are subject to so many micromanaging regulations.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[lagarthaaz]

CaleB - I agree with you. This person was cruel in the way she disposed of the animal and she was immature for writing a jocular blog entry about it later. 

 

Just because something is 'ugly' or 'scary' to us does not give us the right to treat it as a non-sentient being. 

 

As others here have noted she is young and was most likely trying to be witty and entertaining on her blog - but it just comes across as annoying and puerile.  Hopefully she has learned from this as I'm sure she would have had negative reactions since her blog entry was posted in July. 

 

 

 

I would have assumed that a sister of a missionary would be strongly ethical - that being heavy on mercy and compassion.

 

I was wondering what your position was on this blog?

 

This person traps an animal with a glue trap, and after discussion of how to kill it, decides it would be a good idea to burn it alive. She laughs afterwards and celebrates with a pizza.

 

How would you deal with something like this if you were a colleague, or if you were a missionary leader? I would have assumed someone who devotes their time helping people would be merciful and kind, and yet I see nothing but sadism here.

[CaleB]

No, I have a problem with self-righteous individuals who place animals above humans.  You have all of 8 posts here and 4 of those posts are about a young (19 year old) not fully mature LDS missionary young women who took 18 months out of her live to dedicate it to God and how she did something stupid.  Please, give me a break.  I'm sure if any missionary listed all the dumb things they did as a missionary you'd hate them too.  

 

Since you are so full of self-righteous indignation, I'm sure at 19 you were the epitome of sainthood, virtue and of all things holy.

 

Me . . . lacking empathy, talk about the pot calling the kettle black.  You have more empathy for a rat than your fellow-man.

 

No, I'm not arguing that it is okay to burn an animal, what I am saying is that I wasn't there and that I'm not going to make snap, quick, judgments (as you seem to be so apt to do) about what a missionary wrote on a blog (missionaries and blogs, probably another not so smart decision).

 

Personally, if you want snap quick judgement, I say you've got some axe to grind.  How in the world did you ever find out about her blog?  Since missionaries are only out 18-24 months, they can't really develop huge followers.  Google isn't going to pick up this type of blog, you've got to actively search for it.  So my snap, self-righteous judgement is that you are either a) someone who personally knows her and dislikes her or b ) someone looking for a fight with LDS members.

 

To both of those I say, grow up and learn to have a little kindness and forgiveness for your fellow man.  Yes people do stupid things and the way they went about this was stupid, but it wasn't just her, she's got a companion with her (and it sounds like there were several other sisters with her. . . .I don't see you castigating them as evil sadist individuals who either passively let it happen or were active participates).

 

This is much ado about nothing and if anything sheds more light on your personality, lack of empathy for your fellow human being, a sister.

 

Now if she's going around kicking rocks at dogs, squishing them, etc. and in general being mean to them then you might have a case.  I see a sister who had a rat problem and tried to take care of it the best way she could (and didn't do the greatest job at it).

 

End of story, too much digital memory has been wasted on this utterly pointless topic.

How am I placing animals over humans??

 

By saying that burning a live animal is sick and demented?? Oh gosh, sorry, having concern for animal cruelty and calling someone out on it must mean I value animals more. *sarcasm*

 

Criticising someone for animal cruelty to a rat does NOT mean I have more empathy for a rat than for a human being. That is ridiculous. For all you know I volunteer at the local homeless shelter, and give free legal advice to the poor. I do a lot more for my fellow man than I'd do for an animal, and that's a fact. So don't try to misinterpret me and twist things! As for hating someone who list all the dumb things they did, wow. This isn't some kind of innocent mistake, it isn't something like someone getting an order wrong or being late or staying up drinking at 5am. It's someone burning an animal to death.

 

And the ridiculous double standard you have here  - so kicking rocks to dogs is not ok but burning a rat alive is? What?? They're BOTH wrong, in fact burning a live animal would be worse because it would be much more painful for it! And I damn well do have a case here, it's a case of a cruel and unnecessary act. It's just that you don't think there's any case because the victim involved is a rat, not a cute fluffy puppy or more "useful" animal.

 

She tortured a rat, laughed about it with her friends and celebrated afterwards. No remorse about her actions at all. And YES, this goes for her companions too, all under the same microscope here. And in saying this, I suddenly have more consideration for animals than humans?? You're making zero sense there!! And yes, YOU lack empathy. I am criticising her actions, as they are INDEED awful and disgusting and yet you are shrugging your shoulders and whitewashing this woman's actions. If you're going to say you don't care that she burned a a rat alive, then say it! But please don't try to paint me as someone who cares more for animals than humans and pretend it's nothing. I just dislike cruelty to animals immensely. That is NOT mutually exclusive to caring or helping human beings!

 

At 19, no I wasn't all saintly and such, but I never dropped so low as to torture a defenceless animal to death by something that is incredibly painful. You talk about showing kindness and forgiveness to this person - well, I would if she had regret or remorse about what she did. People who do those sort of things, and don't... well... what am supposed to think about them??

Edited December 21, 2014 by CaleB

[kapikui]

Seems to have also burned the bubonic plague carrying fleas on the rat that were almost certainly there in a highly populated area of a third world country.

[CaleB]

Novel idea: burn the body AFTER you kill it.

 

There's a lot of stray dogs in those areas too that can harbour such fleas. That doesn't mean people should be burning them alive.

[Vort]

CaleB, what does FFS mean?

For Fornication's Sake. (Though some replace "Fornication" with an even uglier F word.)

[Vort]

CaleB, how about this:

We all agree that burning the rat to death was the wrong thing to do. We all agree that it was inhumane and that the person in question shouldn't have done it.

 

However, we do not condemn the person who did this or denounce her as evil personified. Having a lot of experience with people in different situations, we understand that her actions were likely the result of panic and immaturity, and her writing an attempt to regale us with a story, not to take pleasure in brutality. Our guess is that, in ten years (or perhaps much less), she will look back on the incident with at least a bit of chagrin at having burned the poor animal to death, however scared and clueless she may have been at the time.

 

Is that sufficient? Or do you require us to join you in your full-throated condemnation of this person? Because we won't. We have enough experience to recognize a poor decision motivated by fear and immaturity rather than attributing it to evil intent. If you can't see that, then that reflects much more on you than on her.

 

Seriously, friend. Let it go. It's a sad thing, but it's long done. Far greater evils are performed many thousands of times per day in the very area you live in. Quit harping on a poor decision made by a single missionary half a year ago.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Vort

[AngelMarvel]

I was wondering what takes longer... setting the rat on fire to burn to death. Or, sticking one of the super sticky peanut butter and glue traps down and letting them struggle for hours trying to get off of something they have no chance to get off from and dying a slow death.

 

I live in Utah... and as far as I know, Utah does not have cockroaches. When we moved to Barstow for the summer, we found out they have millions of roaches and they get into everything! So, when we came home, we set a couple of roach bombs off in our trailer. When we went back... all the roaches were dead. They suffocated.

 

Am I evil? Did I do something wrong? No way.... We were keeping our environment safe from diseases.

 

I did not read the blog because I didn't want to see what this person did...but, I got the idea from reading all the posts here. It sounds to me like she used poor judgement being a young girl. Maybe it was her only option at the moment and seeing a rat freaked her out. I am 60 years old and still jump on the highest piece of furniture when I see a mouse/rat.

[CaleB]

That's cool, Vort. I apologise if I sounded a bit over the top, I can be quite passionate about such things.

 

And Angel, people are not supposed to just leave them on the trap. They're supposed to put out of their misery. Even if there is no consideration about the animal's suffering, then it could very well escape the trap. There is no point to starve the animal to death. In fact, I think glue traps should be outlawed. There are better traps to use, ones that at least kill the animal quickly.

[AngelMarvel]

That's cool, Vort. I apologise if I sounded a bit over the top, I can be quite passionate about such things.

 

And Angel, people are not supposed to just leave them on the trap. They're supposed to put out of their misery. Even if there is no consideration about the animal's suffering, then it could very well escape the trap. There is no point to starve the animal to death. In fact, I think glue traps should be outlawed. There are better traps to use, ones that at least kill the animal quickly.

 

 

Like... what... put a piece of cheese on one of those snap traps and let the rat get just part of its body snapped. And, it struggles all night until it dies?

 

I don't sit and watch and wait for a rat to come onto a trap of any kind. We have mice in the country. Our cats normally take care of them. But not always and we do have to use traps because they get into the cars in storage and chew the wiring up. They did it on our Porsche! So, when the traps are set we walk away. I don't get up in the middle of the night thinking, hey I better go out into the garage and see if there's a mouse on the trap. DUH!

Edited December 21, 2014 by AngelMarvel

[kapikui]

Actually as I understand it, the fleas that carry bubonic plague don't like much more than rats.  They will jump on other animals including humans but tend not to set up shop anywhere else. Besides, the street dogs aren't something you end up in physical contact with, unlike a dead rat. 

 

Besides bubonic plague, you also have sever hemorrhagic fevers that are often fatal.

 

You still haven't given a practical alternative as to exactly HOW they should have dispatched the rat in a CaleB approved manner.

 

They were using a makeshift glue trap, one that the rat was about to escape from. They placed a plastic laundry basket over it to forestall the escape.  A plastic laundry basket that the rat could have chewed through in a short time. They didn't want to touch it and I can't blame them.  Why not explain exactly what you think they should have done.

 

Also it would be much appreciated if you could refrain from using profanity in these forums.

[Suzie]

Caleb, you can also leave a comment on her blog, I didn't see any comments. Perhaps, kindly, you can share your thoughts.

[CaleB]

Angel, snap traps usually hit the neck so it's dead instantly. There are also other traps that kill the animal quickly, if you look up on Amazon you can see there's a wide variety. That is better than leaving them to starve to death (no animal deserves that regardless what you think about it). In fact that's why New Zealand recently outlawed them. Leaving an animal on a glue trap is inhumane. It's exactly like leaving a fox in a leg-hold trap... eventually one of two happens - they gnaw off an appendage to escape or dehydrate/starve to death. Now why's that necessary? Just kill it, put it out of its misery. Why extend its misery, make it painful? That's the point I'm making.

 

And as I said kapikui, something heavy - like a brick. Or a shovel or the end of a broom handle, straight to the head. In fact when you look in hindsight, a glue trap was a bad idea. They would have been better off using a cage trap or a heavy duty snapping trap. Getting hemorrhagic fever from an animal like that would assume they have it in the first place, and would also assume ingesting their bodily waste, which I am pretty sure they were in no danger of here (so why bring it up). And fleas don't really have a preference, they will jump on any warm-blooded animal to feed on.

 

So, I gave a few viable alternatives. Oh, but they were too squeamish? Is that an excuse to burn live animals now? I mean, reaaally.... do you, even slightly comprehend how painful it is to get burns? How painful it would have been to that animal? You can cite disease risk all you want, but killing it in a proper less painful way would not have increased any such risk. Seems to me that it was "the easiest, most convenient" way for them. Do you really think that's a good reason to burn an animal alive?

Edited December 21, 2014 by CaleB

[Number75]

Just because someone receives a mission call doesn't mean they become perfect.  While I don't agree with her handling of the situation she could be doing much worse.  For example, I can assure you that some of this young woman's high school classmates have, within the past 24 hours, done drugs, passed out from alcohol use, hung out a bar, went to bed with someone with the risk of acquiring an STD or having a child out of wedlock.

 

Overall, I think this young woman's is living a life the Savior would smile upon.  If anyone is looking for a perfect missionary they will be sorely disappointed.

[bytor2112]

Regarding rats...and snakes for that matter....I say, burn baby burn!

[CaleB]

Regarding rats...and snakes for that matter....I say, burn baby burn!

And I say people who do that get in trouble with the ASPCA (and may need a psychologist). :)

Edited December 21, 2014 by CaleB

[Guest MormonGator]

I love snakes. Too bad my wife doesn't share the opinion. She made me stick to bull terriers. 

[omegaseamaster75]

I know what FFS means.......

[Leah]

Caleb, you can also leave a comment on her blog, I didn't see any comments. Perhaps, kindly, you can share your thoughts.

Suzie makes a good point. If you have an issue with what this person posted on her blog, why didn't you address the issue there, with her? What is the point of joining LDS forums to drag up a months-old post on a completely different blog? You were shut down on at least one forum for not following the rules there. What is it you hope to accomplish by going to LDS forums to malign thus sister missionary over something that occurred months ago?

If your concern is animal cruelty, your cause would be much better served by working to shut down puppy mills and the like, rather than sitting behind a computer screen maligning one missionary for one ill-conceived moment in her life.

But...if animal cruelty is not actually your agenda........

[jerome1232]

I know what FFS means.......

Fabulous Fanatic Samurai's!

[bytor2112]

And I say people who do that get in trouble with the ASPCA (and may need a psychologist). :)

 

And I say that you need to learn to take comments such as mine and the referenced blog with a bit of tongue and cheek.

[theSQUIDSTER]

Fabulous Fanatic Samurai's!

I was going to say "Fan-Freakin' Stupendous!"... but I like yours better.   :)

 

CaleB,

I believe it is of crucial importance to want more mercy and less cruelty in the world.  I personally abhor the killing or hurting (for sport or entertainment) of pretty much anything that lives and breathes with the possible exception of mosquitos and houseflys.  I honestly don't feel much guilt about swatting either of those.  Every other little creature or critter that doesn't belong in my house pretty much gets captured and carried outside.  Sometimes, rather than rescue them, and to appease my wife, I'll stomp on roaches...   .. but even they can't help what they are and, within reason, I think they deserve to live.  Another quirky thing about myself is that I'm very much opposed to Rattlesnake Round-ups.  Mormongator, I too love snakes... even..or perhaps especially the venomous ones.  Beautiful animals, very misunderstood.  I'm fortunate to have a wife that is understanding in this department and even allows me to keep a small speckled rattlesnake.  

 

 

The reason I mention these things about myself is to preface what I'm about to say:

 

Dude... you really need to pick your battles..  :) .. with a little more discrimination... 

 

Seriously, I think this one is worth letting go of.  There are so many "bigger fish to fry" than one LDS sister missionary burning a rat to death.  And though I love animals, even rats... I'm less worried about the suffering of one rat than what willful killing for sport does to the spirit of human beings.  I think the enjoyment of killing is a sort-of cancer much too prevalent in this world.  That being said, I have to agree with the assessment of most of the posters in this thread that I don't think the sister missionary is anything but immature and dealing with a pest-control situation..  I really don't think she was killing for sport... despite some of the things she said... which I chalk up to bravado or even tounge-in-cheek commentary as, for example, bytor2112.. because she knew that she'd get a reaction from various readers... perhaps laugh-along-with-sympathy for dealing with a pest-control situation...  perhaps sympathy from readers who don't especially like rats... whatever... 

 

So... take my two-cents of advice or not... Speaking out against cruelty is a good thing... I'm on your side on that one... with the proviso that it should really be about human beings becoming better and kinder first to each other and then to other species.. because we can.  If that's your main contention then I think I can fully endorse that.

 

However, if you're worried about all living things suffering in general and that we need to do away with all suffering then, I hate to break it to you, but nature is extremely callous and cruel.  Nature is kill or be killed most of the time... survival of the fittest.  How do you propose we change that?  I know we like to watch idealized portrayals of nature as the perfect balance of things etc. etc. etc..  Look at how healthy most animals are in nature.  Isn't mother-nature a great nurturer?  Hardly any weak and sick languishing.... yadda yadda yadda...

 

ahem... yes... not because Mother-nature is so "kind" ... but because the sick and weak get eaten... or are too weak to hunt and starve to death.  Or, if it's not about eating it's about sex... The toughest biggest males win and the rivals are vanquished and/or killed.  In the case of lions, if a male ousts another from his harem and there are cubs, that male will typically kill the cubs of the rival male.  The lionesses then come into estrus quicker and he breeds with them and spreads his own genetic influence.  He's the winner for as long as he can maintain his power.  When he gets too old he'll be run-off by a new rival male who will spread his genes.... Survival and perpetuation of the species... Might makes right.  The biggest, fastest, most cunning win.  That's nature.  Nature is grandly beautiful!  ... and also very harsh... 

 

so... In the real world cruelty happens all over the place.  What can we really do about that if not first working within our own species to discourage it?

 

ok... getting off my soapbox now.   

Edited December 21, 2014 by theSQUIDSTER

[Bini]

I'm sceptical that the rat was burned alive. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. If it did happen, I agree, what an evil way to do it. If I had witnessed such an act, I'd be horrified, and I'd be questioning my companion's mental health. Animal torture, regardless of what the animal is, is cruel. There is no justification for it, no matter how ugly or irritating it is. If it didn't happen, and this sister is just embellishing a blog entry, then that's pretty disturbing in and of itself. You gotta wonder what kind of person would joke about setting afire a living creature.

[CaleB]

Suzie makes a good point. If you have an issue with what this person posted on her blog, why didn't you address the issue there, with her?

I did. Except that the blog comments are moderated and aren't displayed. Wonder if I can contact Wordpress and have the blog deleted, well at least that entry, animal cruelty like that is against their ToS.