omegaseamaster75 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 How else would you show the principle I was trying to show? I respect your opinion about Jesus being best man at a gay wedding. I'm strongly inclined to disagree. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe there's an exceptional circumstance in which He would do it - but my point of view is based on the idea that you can show love for someone without participating in what they are doing. Objectively speaking, I certainly don't think it's a slam-dunk conclusion that Jesus "for sure" would be his best man.We can agree to disagree, think about this however the OP has stated that this man is like his brother or is his brother? I can't remember. These events in this case a wedding is a once in a life time event. One from which he will have pictures and one in which he wants those who are meaningful in his life to participate in his happiness. No one is going to die, no one is advocating hatred of any sort, it is a celebration. Think of the hurt that is caused by being objectionable to this special (to him) event. When he thinks of his wedding day does he want to have good memories or bad ones and where does this leave your relationship with this special person in your life? Damaged at best. I have read how others would go but they would be unable to bridle their disgust at the event and if asked about would say so. How mature is that really? You can't suck it up for a few hours? You want your friend to not be gay well you can crush any chance of that with only a moments of intolerance. They know how you feel and when one day they do decide to come around and change their ways, if they do they will remember you and your kindness and tolerance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) It's not We can agree to disagree, think about this however the OP has stated that this man is like his brother or is his brother? I can't remember. These events in this case a wedding is a once in a life time event. One from which he will have pictures and one in which he wants those who are meaningful in his life to participate in his happiness. No one is going to die, no one is advocating hatred of any sort, it is a celebration. Think of the hurt that is caused by being objectionable to this special (to him) event. When he thinks of his wedding day does he want to have good memories or bad ones and where does this leave your relationship with this special person in your life? Damaged at best. Sin is still sin, no matter how much we choose to emotionally invest ourselves in it and no matter how petulantly we lash out at loved ones who won't give their blessing to our behavior. At the final judgment, no one will look back at their gay wedding day as a happy occasion. Quite to the contrary--they will view it as a colossal mistake; and more than few of 'em might kinda wonder why their Mormon friends didn't seem to understand that at the time and soothed their itching ears with drawls of "well, it's not thaaaat bad . . ." This is a tricky situation with no easy answers; and it's interesting to me that some posters here seem to actually want to browbeat the OP into doing what they think he ought to do rather than simply encouraging him to rely on the Spirit. Edited March 20, 2015 by Just_A_Guy Anddenex, Leah and mordorbund 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 It's not Sin is still sin, no matter how much we choose to emotionally invest ourselves in it and no matter how petulantly we lash out at loved ones who won't give their blessing to our behavior. Yes I agree sin is still sin At the final judgment, no one will look back at their gay wedding day as a happy occasion. Quite to the contrary--they will view it as a colossal mistake; and more than few of 'em might kinda wonder why their Mormon friends didn't seem to understand that at the time and soothed their itching ears with drawls of "well, it's not thaaaat bad . . ." Yeah it's a mistake, but maybe they look back on it and see who stood with them, and their compassion and love for the individual. Who in spite of their errors and mistake were able to look past that and love and support them. This is a tricky situation with no easy answers; and it's interesting to me that some posters here seem to actually want to browbeat the OP into doing what they think he ought to do rather than simply encouraging him to rely on the Spirit.The OP needs to do what is right for his situation, I am not so sure that the spirit will get to involved.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalist_Oinker Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I agree with estradling and Leah about turning to the Lord for an answer. I mean what really is the point in asking any of us for advice? The best we can do is tell you what WE would do---or rather what we THINK we would do. I can tell you that I wouldn't go---no how, no way. But then just a couple of months ago I looked down into a canyon and told myself that I WOULD NOT kill an elk down there---no how, no way!And there I was the following day humping out of the bottom of that same canyon with a hindquarter on my back. If you've already made up your mind one way or the other (and I'm not suggesting you have) then you can most certainly find someone here who will validate your decision. If you haven't already made up your mind, then a 50/50 poll here isn't going to help you much. Do what estradling recommended. My experience is that if you ask in all sincerity, and the Lord hasn't already provided an answer via the scriptures or modern-day prophets and apostles, he will give you an answer to your question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Dear best friend. Thank you for loving me so much that you stood by and supported me as I threw away my salvation. That support means so much. If I hadn't had it this whole going to the Telestial kingdom would be so much worse. But because of your support and love it's okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Yeah it's a mistake, but maybe they look back on it and see who stood with them, and their compassion and love for the individual. Who in spite of their errors and mistake were able to look past that and love and support them. So . . . you'd stand in as best man as your friend married a thirteen-year-old girl? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 So . . . you'd stand in as best man as your friend married a thirteen-year-old girl?apples and oranges..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 How? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 How?You don't see the difference? 2 consenting adults engaging in a legal act vs. 1 adult and 1 child engaging in an illegal act (depending on where you live)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Gay marriage is also illegal in some jurisdictions; and this hypothetical thirteen-year-old would be about the same age that Mary of Nazareth was when she (one hopes) meaningfully consented to bear the Son of God. So frankly; I don't think your real reason for thinking gay marriage preferable to teenaged marriage really has much to do with either legalities or about capacity to provide informed consent. Anddenex, mordorbund and Crypto 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayGlad Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Any advice? I'm not trying to glib, but... Would the Lord as stand as best man for someone in a same sex marriage? EDIT: Posted before reading entire thread. The question has already been asked. It's still a good question, and it appears that a few have answered it. Edited March 20, 2015 by JayGlad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Gay marriage is also illegal in some jurisdictions; and this hypothetical thirteen-year-old would be about the same age that Mary of Nazareth was when she (one hopes) meaningfully consented to bear the Son of God. So frankly; I don't think your real reason for thinking gay marriage preferable to teenaged marriage really has much to do with either legalities or about capacity to provide informed consent. Your going out on a limb here back off of it before it breaks.......we are talking about a legal marriage in 2015 in a state where it is legal. your hypothetical comparison does not hold water because you are again trying to compare apples and oranges again.. Marital eligibility 1000 years ago in Jewish culture and tradition is not the same as marriage today based on our cultural standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David13 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I wonder what "tolerance" really is?I know some people who disagree with my politics and so shun me like the plague.Yet all I hear today is "tolerance". At least in terms of some things like what we have here.I think a lot of people define tolerance as 'you must be all bright eyed and bushy tailed encouraging, like a cheerleader, to homosexuals."I can't agree with that. If I knew of an active practicing alcoholic, an active pedophile, a drug using addict, et alia, I could encourage them to change their ways, to get their life in order, to seek help, and I could ask them if they thought that was a good idea.I couldn't give them money. I don't think that would help them.Nor do I see how I could be "best friends" with them.dc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Your going out on a limb here back off of it before it breaks.......we are talking about a legal marriage in 2015 in a state where it is legal. Oh, so you'd refuse to stand in at a gay commitment ceremony in Arkansas, where gay marriage remains illegal? your hypothetical comparison does not hold water because you are again trying to compare apples and oranges again.. Marital eligibility 1000 years ago in Jewish culture and tradition is not the same as marriage today based on our cultural standards. So your understanding of the relative objectionability of gay marriage versus teenaged marriage has nothing at all to do with what's objectively morally wrong, and everythign to do with blending into the broader society. Leah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Oh, so you'd refuse to stand in at a gay commitment ceremony in Arkansas, where gay marriage remains illegal? Uh yeah it's against the law So your understanding of the relative objectionability of gay marriage versus teenaged marriage has nothing at all to do with what's objectively morally wrong, and everythign to do with blending into the broader society.No, I never gay marriage was not morally wrong. Your half hearted attempt at pinning me down using a poor example of teenage marriage is what I find objectionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) No, I never gay marriage was not morally wrong. Indeed. But it does seem pretty clear that you don't think it's AS wrong as--say--a teenaged marriage, even in a jurisdiction where such a marriage is legal and even when the teenaged party is still, as a matter of emotional/mental development, quite capable of giving informed consent. Fifty years ago, most people--in and out of the Church--would have said that the gay marriage was far more morally objectionable than marriage where one party is a teenager. So I am curious: What changed? God? I apologize that I've been a little overly aggressive and seemed like I'm trying to "pin" you. But I do think there's an incongruity of thought here that defies logic and ultimately boils down to the fact (whether one admits it or not) that underaged marriage still retains an "ick" factor among many people, whereas gay marriage increasingly does not. Edited March 21, 2015 by Just_A_Guy Crypto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David13 Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 I think there is a distinct inability on this forum, and another one to distinguish between things that are malum prohibitum and those that are malum in se, or pro se.Some things are just prohibited. Other things are morally and ethically wrong.dc Vort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magus Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) Just throwing this out there - according to many scholars (and even one of the lost gospels, if I remember right), Mary was about 14 when she conceived Jesus......and also, to refresh everyone's memory, Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl. https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng And granted, it was legal back then and according to Helen Mar Kimball, there weren't sexual relations (though I personally don't rule out that there could have been - and it doesn't bother me), but I'm just saying Mormons comparing gay marriage to under-age marriage might not be the the best tactic, considering the circumstances. Also, what's objectionable by society at any given time (it changes) and what is an actual sin in God's eyes are are gonna be two different things. Not trying to attack you or single you out, Just A Guy, nor is this a specific response to you or to anyone at all really. I was just reading the course of the convo and this came to mind, that's all. Edited March 21, 2015 by Magus Just_A_Guy and omegaseamaster75 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8Shooter Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 I would not go. To me it is mocking that which is most holy and most sacred. A true friend that asks you to participate in something that they know you do not support should not expect you to accept the invitation. More importantly, they should still be your friend if you politely refuse their invitation with your testimony of the eternal nature of marriage. It should not be surprising if they express disappointment or sadness, but if they take offense, display enmity, or show anger, you should reevaluate what kind of friend they are.We are to emulate the Savior's actions in our lives. Where do you see the Savior at a same gender marriage? Can you see him in the audience? I could possibly see that, but I can't picture him remaining quiet when they say speak now or forever hold your peace. Can you see him standing next to the participants of the marriage, giving them the ring that represents their sinful act? That is something that I cannot picture.Those are my opinions and advice. This life is full of difficult choices. The choice you have to make is certainly one that is not easy. I feel the most difficult choices in life are when we have to choose between God and our friends or family. You will get an answer. This is certain. It is promised. Have courage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8Shooter Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 p.s. Sorry for the duplicate posts. Error 524 should say "A timeout occurred and your post will be duplicated 9 million times" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) Magus, that was part of my point. We know, from our own ecclesiastical history, that there are situations where a "teenaged marriage" might not be objectionable at all on any absolute moral basis; but we still shrink at the notion of approving of or participating in such a ceremony. In spite of our relationship with the party involved, we always disapprove of and refuse to participate in, teenaged marriages. But because of our relationship with the party involved, in the eyes of some, we must now always approve of, and participate in, gay marriages--even though the latter are always wrong; and the former are sometimes not wrong at all. This inconsistency is not, to my mind, a product of what God deems to be right or wrong; or the importance of maintaining good relations with friends and family. It is, rather, a product of our having bought into worldly notions that, to a greater or lesser degree, gay sex isn't really that bad. The other facet of my point, of course, was this notion; which I find bizarre; that we have a Christian duty to participate in an abominable rite in the name of "standing with" and "loving and supporting" the sinner. Omegaseamaster's obvious revulsion at playing an integral role at a teenaged wedding, even if one of the parties was a loved one, is proof that even (s)he acknowledges that there are limits to what accommodations an unrepentant sinner can demand in the name of "compassion", "love" and "support". Edited March 21, 2015 by Just_A_Guy Magus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Omegaseamaster's obvious revulsion at playing an integral role at a teenaged wedding, even if one of the parties was a loved one, is proof that even (s)he acknowledges that there are limits to what accommodations an unrepentant sinner can demand in the name of "compassion", "love" and "support".Stop, please don't put words in my mouth. you referenced an illegal act and tried to compare it to a legal act. If in said state teenage marriage is illegal I will not attend because its AGAINST THE LAW If in the same state gay marriage is legal I will attend So now are both legal? Let's just pretend that they are and assuming both future spouses are participating of their own free will I go to both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Sometimes I think people forget that Christ is the very same being who utterly destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt for even looking back at it. And yet some seem so confident He would happily attend a gay wedding? O....kay.... Just_A_Guy, Leah, Vort and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuffedbigfoot Posted March 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Thank you for your response. Prayer and scripture study is a given for me, but answers don't always come at once. Sometimes it takes time and while I wait and ponder I try to seek advice from others who may have more wisdom than me. I take your advice in consideration and not as absolute answers, I will find those with the guidance of the Spirit. I am grateful for the advice you all give me, it really helps. Crypto, Just_A_Guy and pam 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Sometimes I think people forget that Christ is the very same being who utterly destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt for even looking back at it. And yet some seem so confident He would happily attend a gay wedding? O....kay.... Depends on which Jesus your talking about....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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