Warning

[The Folk Prophet]

The prophets and apostles have stated what they have stated. I think we wrest with their teachings to our own detriment.

 

 I always loved it and always will. At a concert once I got into a conversation with a total stranger about being LDS. He was holding a beer and I mentioned that I don't drink. We ended up talking for about ten minutes. At the end he said "I never really knew much about Mormons. Maybe I'll check em out. Thanks man." It was pretty cool.  

 

Other cool metal story: I saw a guy at a hockey game and he noticed I was wearing a Ramones t-shirt. He commented on a tattoo I have and we also got to talking about Mormons. I got his email address and eventually sent him a copy of the Book of Mormon. No, he didn't convert but the good news is I developed a friendship and opened his eyes a bit about our church. 

 

MormonGator. Defeating anti-LDS prejudice one guy at a time. 

 

Maybe I should be attending more strip clubs, porn shops, and drug dens to help defeat this anti-LDS prejudice as well.

 

("More" makes it sound like I'm attending a few already...just not enough. Haha.)

 

I've quit boxing the Spirit on what I think is his modus operandi.

 

Boxing with?

 

Implication being that choosing to not listen to heavy music, watch violent or sexual shows, or involve oneself in other worldly things is potentially missing out on methods the Spirit might actually choose to communicate with us? I find that reasoning a bit odd.

 

You speak as if the modus operandi of the Spirit is guess work on our part, and yet it's clearly described in scripture and the prophet's teachings.

 

As one who has listened to a lot of metal and "hard" rock (and occasionally still does), I am starting to think that I'm not nearly as smart or as wise as I have apparently always thought myself to be.

 

I'm learning this about you too.   (Haha. J/k).

 

I am constantly learning new wisdom. Heavy music is one I used to justify all the time. At some levels I still do. And at many levels I still don't understand what is appropriate and when. I've put aside most of the heaviest stuff. Certainly the obvious. (At one time I was quite into White Zombie/Rob Zombie and Marilyn Manson. I shudder when I think how I once listened to that stuff now.) But I still engage in, and even create, rock style music of a less extreme nature (pop rock, classic rock, etc.) I can't imagine, nor would I contend, that this stuff should all be shunned. Though I do think we tend to excuse a whole lot more of it (even those of us who are honestly trying*) than we should.

 

*By this I mean that culturally, there seems to be a complete excusing of practically all of this, even within the majority of the church.

 

My enjoyment of that type of music is real, not feigned, and the technical mastery and musical content shown by such music is often very high.

 

This is true for me as well.

 

I have not yet reached the point of deciding that it's all evil, or equivalently, that the cost/benefit ratio is greater than one (meaning it's more bad than good).

 

Also for me.

 

And there is a line that is blurry for me. I think there is a level where things are merely cultural. My mother/sisters finds things offensive that I cannot comprehend. (Of course that is becoming less and less so as I grow older and become one of the more conservative ones in the family instead of one of the less).

 

But, as indicated, as I grow and mature, and draw ever steadily nearer to the time when I will stand before my Maker (hopefully a good while off still), I start to feel more and more that anything I enjoy holds no bearing whatsoever. I feel more and more that I have but one, short, life to attain exaltation, and would I/should I trade that for anything? Is there any enjoyment I would not gladly discard, even "just in case" to ensure my relationship with God, and that I was worthy on that day?

 

The older I get, the more "fanatical" I become on these matters. Why would I take the chance at trading my eternal happiness for something so trivial? And so I am learning, bit by bit, to put these things aside and to take up my cross for Him. In some cases, this means putting aside things I love dearly. Shame on me if I love them more than my God and/or my desire to truly know him through His Spirit, and the means he has clearly taught, and teaches again and again through his anointed leaders of this church.

[The Folk Prophet]

anatess...after reading Gator's reply to you I realize I may have misunderstood what you meant by "boxing".

 

But my overall point remains, I think. If someone has "boxed in" the Spirit, it is by advice of the Lord's servants, and I will trust in them and do my best to keep influences out of my life that will drive the Spirit away, and also continue to trust that the "feel good" emotions I have had in the past from such experience, although emotionally pleasing, are not the same thing at all.

[Guest]

anatess...after reading Gator's reply to you I realize I may have misunderstood what you meant by "boxing".

 

But my overall point remains, I think. If someone has "boxed in" the Spirit, it is by advice of the Lord's servants, and I will trust in them and do my best to keep influences out of my life that will drive the Spirit away, and also continue to trust that the "feel good" emotions I have had in the past from such experience, although emotionally pleasing, are not the same thing at all.

 

Boxing - sounds weird now that I re-read it... hah hah.  Boxing - not Manny Pacquiao boxing... but putting in a box.

 

Basically, when somebody says the Spirit touched him - while he was head banging to heavy metal or visiting a Baptist revival (man, those guys can rock!) or whatever... I don't automatically doubt them because it just doesn't sound like a place where the Spirit can visit.

 

And yes, I know the difference between "feel good" emotions and spiritual testimonies as it pertains to my experiences.  Many a Mormon has told me from the pulpit that the Catholics next-door can't possibly have the Spirit...  whatever.  I've had many spiritual experiences all throughout my life - even before I became LDS.  It's really no use trying to convince somebody that you had a spiritual experience if they don't believe you.  Spiritual experiences are very very personal in that sense.  You can cry a river because somebody doesn't believe you or you can just let it go secure in your testimony regardless of whether somebody believes you or not.

 

But... what does this have to do with Warning?  Nothing.  Threadjack.

[The Folk Prophet]

And yes, I know the difference between "feel good" emotions and spiritual testimonies as it pertains to my experiences. 

 

If you truly do, then you are far ahead of me.

 

Spiritual experiences are very very personal in that sense.

 

I would submit that a "spiritual experience" and receiving revelation by the Holy Ghost are different.

 

All things that are good are of God. All things that lead us to good are of the Spirit. The Spirit communicating directly to us through the still small voice is something else.

 

Many a Mormon has told me from the pulpit that the Catholics next-door can't possibly have the Spirit... 

 

Who would argue such a silly thing? Silly people. Now that the Catholic next door cannot have the constant companionship of the Spirit....

 

But... what does this have to do with Warning?  Nothing.  Threadjack.

 

Shrug. This was more interesting.

Edited July 17, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Windseeker]

 

The prophets and apostles have stated what they have stated. I think we wrest with their teachings to our own detriment.

 

 

Maybe I should be attending more strip clubs, porn shops, and drug dens to help defeat this anti-LDS prejudice as well.

 

("More" makes it sound like I'm attending a few already...just not enough. Haha.)

 

I think we know what Gator means...are you trying to be purposely obtuse? 

 

I think a better comparison to a metal concert might be watching football or rugby then going to a strip club or porn shop or drug den are you kidding me??

 

And it seems members have no problem holding up examples of the spiritual giants in professional sports that make a living actually crushing skulls..not just singing about it. 

[Guest MormonGator]

 

 

 

I think we know what Gator means...are you trying to be purposely obtuse? 

 

I think a better comparison to a metal concert might be watching football or rugby then going to a strip club or porn shop or drug den are you kidding me??

 

And it seems members have no problem holding up examples of the spiritual giants in professional sports that make a living actually crushing skulls..not just singing about it. 

 

 Thanks. There is, of course, a huge difference between them. I'm sure the majority of us can see it. 

Edited July 17, 2015 by MormonGator

[theSQUIDSTER]

And United States ?

we now return you to our regularly scheduled program...

Palerider,

Not sure I understand your question. Are you asking if ISIS and Iran might ever join forces against the U. S.?

If so, again I think the sectarian divide is probably too wide.. not to mention that ISIS is not even allied with most Sunnis. Though who can say how this might evolve over time..? Presently, however, an alliance of any sort would seem quite unlikely.

[Guest MormonGator]

we now return you to our regularly scheduled program...

 

 Oops! Sorry for hijacking the thread. My bad 

[The Folk Prophet]

I think we know what Gator means...are you trying to be purposely obtuse? 

 

That's me. Mr. Obtuse. Everyone knows it.

 

I think a better comparison to a metal concert might be watching football or rugby then going to a strip club or porn shop or drug den are you kidding me??

 

Are you not familiar with the concept of using a more extreme example to make a point? (Not to be confused with the Appeal to Extreme or Reductio ad absurdum logical fallacies.) An extreme example is not meant to be a literal comparison, and it takes a special kind of "obtuse" reasoning (although a very popular form of reasoning) to do so. The extreme example needs to be used because the righteousness/unrighteousness of the actual event being discusses has not been solidly established. The point is, quite simply that we are discussing just that...the potential goodness/badness of a heavy metal event and the like.

 

The point it seems to me that Gator is trying to make is that he's doing good by going against the counsel of our leaders by having tatoos and attending raucous music events because it A) gives him opportunities he might not otherwise have and B) shows others that Mormons aren't all a bunch of Molly Mormon/Peter Priesthood types. Both these would also be achieve by my examples, and a myriad of other things that are either extremely against the teachings of the prophets, or moderately against the counsels of the prophets. So whereas my examples are, obviously, and intentionally, more extreme, the premise is exactly the same. The point is not to compare going to a strip club or drug den to a heavy metal concert (which should be obvious) but rather to compare the justification of doing either -- and to make the point that sharing the gospel does not justify doing something IF it's wrong to do. The comparison was, in no way, an argument that such events are, de facto, wrong and thereby compare directly to other clearly wrong activities. But rather to point out that IF the event is wrong (which, I believe, has been established through other means -- specifically prophetic teachings) then just as with other more extreme events and activities, the good deed done there does not validate the attendance in the first place.

 

My point is quite simply, that doing one thing good doesn't offset the failure to obey otherwise.

 

Incidentally, I've been to football games, and I've been to heavy metal concerts. The relative good/bad nature of these is an invalid comparison too. But, more to the point, said example would fail because no prophet or apostle has ever counseled us to stay away from football games (with the exception of Sunday. So maybe that would have been an "easier" example to use -- going to a football game on Sunday.)

Edited July 17, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Windseeker]

That's me. Mr. Obtuse. Everyone knows it.

 

 

The point it seems to me that Gator is trying to make is that he's doing good by going against the counsel of our leaders by having tatoos and attending raucous music events because it A) gives him opportunities he might not otherwise have and B) shows others that Mormons aren't all a bunch of Molly Mormon/Peter Priesthood types. Both these would also be achieve by my examples, and a myriad of other things that are either extremely against the teachings of the prophets, or moderately against the counsels of the prophets. 

 

Than I for one appreciate people like Gator who can show others we are not a bunch of Molly Mormon/Peter Priesthood types that visit strip clubs, porn shops and drug dens and instead can demonstrate you can live and share the Gospel while sporting tattoos and enjoying Metal.

 

....stay tuned for more 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

And for the record Folk Prophet-All the tattoos I got were before I converted. I have no regrets and I absolutely love them.  Same with my piercings.  Wear them with pride. I have not gotten a new one since I converted, but I can't lie to you and to say I never will again. 

Edited July 17, 2015 by MormonGator

[Vort]

Than I for one appreciate people like Gator who can show others we are not a bunch of Molly Mormon/Peter Priesthood types

 

What exactly is wrong with Molly Mormon/Peter Priesthood types? That's what I aspire to be.

[Guest MormonGator]

What exactly is wrong with Molly Mormon/Peter Priesthood types? That's what I aspire to be.

 My view (obviously I speak only for Gator, no one else) : there is nothing inherently wrong. However, some non-LDS people feel like there is no room for people who :: gasp :: look differently than the Molly/Peter types. IE-Having long hair, tattoos, etc. Those people need the gospel too and they won't open up to a person in a suit. They also don't want to change their appearance (it's important to some of us, sorry) and shouldn't have too in order to be LDS. Diversity is a good thing. The gospel is theirs too. 

Edited July 18, 2015 by MormonGator

[mirkwood]

 

'nuff said.

[askandanswer]

This item appeared on our government funded Radio Australia a few weeks back. The segment can be accessed via the link below the quote.

 

For some, it's confronting and disturbing. To others, it's simply unappealing noise.

Extreme music such as heavy metal is definitely not part of the mainstream.

But a new Australian study into the emotional effects of extreme music challenges those negative assumptions.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/new-research-finds-heavy-metal-music-can-have/6585800

 

Following is the abstract of the study on which the radio report was based

 

The period between 15 and 25 years is characterised by much personal change and is the peak age of onset of mental health problems. This prompts an interest in everyday strategies that young people might use to support their well-being. Music use is the preferred leisure activity among young people yet little is known about how music is linked to well-being in this population. This study aimed to develop and test a model of the relationships between young people's use of music and their well-being, drawing on theories from the music psychology and clinical psychology fields. A qualitative analysis of transcripts from focus groups with 11 participants aged 15–25 years revealed four ways in which music listening links with well-being: relationship building, modifying emotions, modifying cognitions and emotional immersion. These linking variables were operationalised using questionnaire scores and tested on a new sample of 107 young people. Results of a multiple mediation analysis revealed that music listening was significantly related to all four linking variables, but not directly related to well-being as measured by the Mental Health Continuum. Nevertheless, the four linking variables indirectly mediated the effect of music listening on social well-being. The findings are consistent with earlier research on the role of music in emotion regulation and social connection although there are clearly other factors involved in determining young peoples' well-being. These findings will help inform music-based interventions for young people.

[Vort]

Diversity is a good thing. 

 

Good diversity is a good thing. Diversity per se is neither good nor bad. It's existence.

 

Some people beat up their children. They are diverse from me in that way, but their diversity is not good or virtuous. Do not make the mistake of thinking that diversity itself is a virtue.

[Vort]

 

'nuff said.

 

Given that they are all outspoken atheists, the term "holy trinity of rock" is both ironic and strangely appropriate.

[Guest MormonGator]

Good diversity is a good thing. Diversity per se is neither good nor bad. It's existence.

 

Some people beat up their children. They are diverse from me in that way, but their diversity is not good or virtuous. Do not make the mistake of thinking that diversity itself is a virtue.

 Right, but that doesn't mean diversity is a bad thing either. I'm sure there are Molly/Peter types who beat their children, mess around on their spouses while appearing righteous and wonderful and there are people who look like me who don't do that stuff. You really can't judge on appearances. 

 

I take that back. You (not "You" meaning Vort ) can judge on appearances but it shows more on you than the person you are judging. I'm all for judging behavior, I'm the most judgmental person out there, but appearances not so much. 

Edited July 18, 2015 by MormonGator

[Windseeker]

What exactly is wrong with Molly Mormon/Peter Priesthood types? That's what I aspire to be.

 

You didn't quote the sentence in it's entirety. I understand what you are saying, but I would not put it that way. I myself aspire to honor my Priesthood, follow the Prophet and keep the Commandments as I'm sure you do. 

 

I don't have tattoos or long hair. I have always felt that there is nothing more hardcore  and rebellious then fighting against our own natural man and against the "Great and Spacious" building, being humble and following the Prophet. If you want that in cartoon character form then I suppose Molly/Peter will suffice. 

 

I also realize that those who run counter culture in music and looks can often be just as judgmental as those who stay closer to the mainstream. 

 

We can clearly see the Church's effort to cast a wide net with "Meet the Mormons" . Recently the Church seems to have pushed forward many who don't "fit the mold" per se and said look we are not all produced from a cookie cutter but are very diverse in our race, culture, and interests. 

 

I don't think Gator should be maligned for doing the same thing and recognizing that he can reach people others probably can't. The fact remains that he might struggle reaching a boardroom executive or sharing the message with a group of country club golfers or retired military officers.

 

People outside the Church scoff at our effort to show our diversity but we ARE diverse so why hide it? Why not use our differences to bring people from all walks of life into the fold.

 

 

...and it goes without saying that does not mean we have a pass to run out and get tatt'ed up or have a sex change so we can reach out to the Caitlyns out there...lol

 

    ...is that name ruined forever or what?

Edited July 18, 2015 by Windseeker

[Windseeker]

double post..

Edited July 18, 2015 by Windseeker

[Windseeker]

Given that they are all outspoken atheists, the term "holy trinity of rock" is both ironic and strangely appropriate.

 

Nope...just Neil Peart claims he is Atheist. I'm pretty sure Geddy and Alex are agnostic. 

 

What amazes me is how many LDS (myself included) love these guys. I'm not surprised at all when I see BYU hats/shirts at Rush concerts. Look at this board...I mean wow. 

 

I can only speak for myself in saying that it's a combination of nostalgia and the many truths they express with their lyrics (there are a small number of songs\lyrics I don't care for). Particularly their strong message of free agency, hope, and love of life. They are as far from selling sex as any band I've ever heard, which makes them feel very clean. They have to have the largest fan base of any non mainstream band. Plus they are incredibly talented. 

[The Folk Prophet]

 Right, but that doesn't mean diversity is a bad thing either. I'm sure there are Molly/Peter types who beat their children, mess around on their spouses while appearing righteous and wonderful and there are people who look like me who don't do that stuff. 

 

Holy non-sequitur batman!

 

You really can't judge on appearances. 

 

Sure you can.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

I don't think Gator should be maligned for doing the same thing and recognizing that he can reach people others probably can't.

 

No one's "maligning" Gator. If you'd like to go back and read what the discussion is actually about, it's stems from a claim that he can "feel the spirit" whilst headbanging to Megadeth.

 

Preaching of principle is not maligning anyone. Teaching that we should follow the counsel of our prophets is not maligning anyone. Claiming that we should stay away from things that we've been told to stay away from is not maligning anyone.

 

As Gator said, he got his tattoos prior to baptism. So there it is. Can't very well say he choose to disregard the prophet there. (Though if he gets another, it's a different matter -- and I question his prideful stance on the matter...but.....). The determination to have pierced ears, the way we dress, our hair styles, the entertainment we pursue, etc., including the choice to attend loud raucous concerts post baptism and post "in-the-know" is, on the other hand, an exercise of agency to do contrary to what has been counseled. That is his right. But stating that we have been counseled to not do these things is not maligning anyone.

[Vort]

 

You didn't quote the sentence in it's entirety.

 

I suppose that is because I did not understand what you were driving at. You wrote:

 

Than I for one appreciate people like Gator who can show others we are not a bunch of Molly Mormon/Peter Priesthood types that visit strip clubs, porn shops and drug dens and instead can demonstrate you can live and share the Gospel while sporting tattoos and enjoying Metal.

 

I took this to mean that some "Molly Mormon/Peter Priesthood types" visit strip clubs, porn shops, and drug dens in order to seek out those who need the gospel, the point being that they are unable to connect well with such people, because, you know, they're all straight-laced and nerdy. The contrast would then be with the (supposed) Gator types who, with their tattoos and body piercings, would be more easily accepted into strip clubs, porn shops, and drug dens, and where they could then teach the gospel to the benighted frequenters of such.

 

But of course, Saints of any stripe should studiously avoid strip clubs, porn shops, and drug dens. This seems so obvious that I would think it goes without saying. So it makes the idea hard to respond to.

 

In fact, it is so hard to believe, that I suspect you did not mean it that way.

 

But the only other way I can take it is that you are saying that "Peter Priesthood/Molly Mormon types" are, in reality, shameless hypocrites, whited sepulchres filled with their own spiritually dead bones, while the virtuous "Gator" types are approved of God, despite any tattoos, body piercings, heavy music, unkempt facial hair, Harleys, spiked boots with matching studded leather chokers, mudflaps with chrome silhouettes of naked women...shoot, I'm running out of silly stereotypes to write...

 

...in other words, you are saying that "Peter Priesthood/Molly Mormon types" are hypocrites.

 

Again, I have no good response to this. If that is what you understand the term "Peter Priesthood/Molly Mormon types" to mean, then my only real response is that that is not what I understand the term to mean.

 

I see tattoos and body piercings as being largely irrelevant to any discussion on spirituality and personal worthiness, except perhaps in their effect as (somewhat poor) examples to the children. I blame no one for having either, whether they were LDS or not at the time they received them. That judgment is not my purview, and I'm happy to leave it to the Judge. But to hold that such people, by virtue of those very tattoos, body piercings, or whatever else, are actually better able to fulfill the duties of a Saint, strikes me as false doctrine, or at least as very dangerous ground to tread.

[Str8Shooter]

What exactly is wrong with Molly Mormon/Peter Priesthood types? That's what I aspire to be.

 

Exactly.  There is nothing wrong with them.  Molly Mormons and Peter Priesthoods are the common goal.  We are ultimately trying to be like one person, Jesus Christ.  I think that some feel they lose their individuality in doing so, which is not true.

 

It's kind of like minivan haters.  People that hate minivans usually hate them because everyone else has one.  Most minivan haters want to be different.  They want to stand out.  I tie it to pride.