My husband feels teaching our future children the gospel is abusive.

[yjacket]

Hey yjacket!

 

I love most of the content of your posts on this thread, but I also have to disagree on this point. Yes, the husband presides over the home and the things pertaining to it, but to me it doesn't follow from that that the husband has the final say on all unresolved disagreements. 

 

I certainly don't agree that he has the say over all disagreements; mostly those that pertain to his role as a provider-where to live, job to take, etc. And that the wife has the final word on most things regarding the home and caring of children.  However, if the husband sees something is going severely amiss at home, he certainly has the obligation to step in and direct how things should work. That should only be done in very select cases; the more responsibility the wife has regarding the home, nuturing and care the better. If he is taking over her role and/or controlling her role-very, very bad.

 

I've had to step in before, I hate doing it; I'm very busy earning a living and I don't care to or want to step into that role. Sometimes for the betterment of the family it is necessary-it sucks-it really does.

 

One of the best things a father can do for his kids is constantly tell his wife that he loves her and shows her that and tell his kids "obey your mother".  

 

However, if for example my wife all the suddenly converted to be Hindu and I would tell her over my dead body would our kids be taught Hindu . . . she can believe it all she wants and live it herself all she wants, but when it comes to kids-no. If they ask questions about it fine; but they will not be taught that it is the truth. They will go to Church on Sunday. 

 

The older I get the more old-school I become. I'm very much a 1950s parent and pre-1970s marriage. It's pretty silly, if we look at society and complain about the degradation of it; how did it occur? Culture is transmitted through marriage and through parenting.  If you look back and say, hey I think the morals of that time period were a lot better than today, you've got to think well what did they do back then-how did they parent, how did their marriages operate, etc. and then replicate it.

Edited September 5, 2015 by yjacket

[Backroads]

Yjacket, I see your point. But if this proposed parenting is a deal-breaker for the OP (and who are we to judge another's deal-breakers) and sees it as enough to affect her marriage, especially when she entered the marriage with her husband making a covenant to raise any kids LDS, is it really so awful to end the marriage now if that's what this couple decides?

From the husband's perspective: his wife is balking at the new plan for the family. He clearly isn't willing to let her behave that way and remain his wife. From a 1950's family perspective, his wife isn't submitting to him. Should he have to stay in that marriage hoping she will leave the church or at least agree to hide it from any future kids?

I have a somewhat personal story: my cousin is currently going through a terrible divorce from a 1950's type man who shortly after the wedding informed her she was not allowed to have anything to do with with the LDS church or really any faith or philosophy other than his (Satanist humanism). The kids were certainly not to know their mother was ever LDS. He believes it his right to preside over the family and make all decisions as to religion and philosophy. In the end he brought a girlfriend to live in their house because it was what he needed and Father Knows Best.

I'm sorry, but the rights of the head of the house do not get to mean thought-control.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Backroads

[Backroads]

My point is, a potential husband ought to be transparent about the marital expectations before the marriage and not just change them on a whim a few months aftee getting married. It's dishonest.

[Guest]

I listen to my husband's counsel as he is living his life with best intention to heed the Lord's counsel. The minute he turns away from the Lord, I have no more obligation to "submit" to him.

[TheMountain]

I don't get the feeling from your posts that you have strong feelings of the church. I admit I could be wrong since an anonymous board doesn't allow one to express feelings fully.  But, you mentioned a couple of times that you felt Preach My Gospel is the reason why you want to teach your children. I would like to address something for you: you need to decide if your testimony is strong enough now and if not, then work on it.  

 

It sounds like your husband has some pretty strong feelings on things and I infer that you go along with them. If that is the case, then your feelings of the Gospel and the church will sway to his thinking unless you fortify your testimony.  Being the only one of faith in a household is extremely difficult. You will feel alone and you will not have your husband to help you when you get overwhelmed with spiritual issues (and everyone has spiritual issues). 

 

Some friends gave me this article, which I think contains a lot of truth in it.  I wish you the best.

 

http://mormonbuzzz.com/spouse-loses-faith/

Beefche, I agree, I need to work on my own testimony.  I do worry that it's not strong enough to stay with him or to leave him truthfully.  I consider this what I call an "abrahamic sacrifice" and I truly believe that if I remain true to my Lord he'll provide me a scape goat.  Whether that means staying with my husband or leaving him somehow it'll work out.  I've had a couple such "abrahamic trials" unfortunately and this, though it's up on my list, is not the worst, but perhaps that's because I've had previous trials to prepare me for this one.  I have been lax in my testimony (transitioning to a family ward is strange, as we're newly weds without kids which keeps us out of the with kids loop at church, and I haven't made a great effort to make friends in our new ward and as such it's really really easy to sleep in through 9 am church and attend a different ward in the day).  However, I've been amazed at how much strength I find in upping my game in prayer, scripture study, and temple attendence.  I even went to my actual ward this week without my husband this week.  I feel strength in reaching out to others.  Thank you for the article.  

I also think his method is also a form of brainwashing. To deny you the right to help decide what to teach your future children is indeed abusive. 

 

It is one thing to say, "Hey Honey, I'm worried about our money.  Let's talk about some ways to cut back.  Even little things like using one squirt of face wash instead of two could help."

 

Do you see the difference?  In my scenario, you are treated as an EQUAL, and your opinion and ideas are valued.  The way he said it to you is very controlling, and that concerns me.

 

Another example of his controlling nature is his insistence that you not teach your future children about God or religion.  I can understand his questioning of his own faith and I don't judge him for that.  It is a difficult thing to go through.  But his rigid insistence that YOU now follow his new path, even though it's very different than what you had both agreed to when you got married is also controlling.

One of my preiouvs "abrahamic trials" included being emotionally abused by my trainer on my mission on a daily basis being told I had no charity and only thought in myself when I didn't agree with her.  My mission president told me that I needed to learn to get along with my companion.  My area president told me if I went home early from my mission I would never marry the kind of guy I want to marry.  So I stayed.  This ultimately led to what I call post-traumatic-mission-disorder 9 months later and I suffered from some severe depression which eventually sent me home early on a medical release.   I've since come out of okay with the help of a lot of counseling and some medications.  That was 4 years ago.

 

My Husband was the type of guy I wanted to marry.  It makes it all the more painful and all the more confusing.  Having him turn the tables to me and accuse me of being abusive when I tell him "you're trying to change me and I don't appreciate it" and he tells me, I am not trying to change you, and you're accusing me of these things, and that's abusive is incredibly confusing.  Having him tell me that teaching my children the gospel and asking them to accept it unconditionally as being abusive is also really confusing.  It's confusing because it's a sore spot for me, but I really think he's the one being abusive... I think that's why I posted here.  To see if anyone could agree with him.  I do have a therapist right now.  I got one to help me come off my medications a couple months ago so we could have children.  

 

Everyone's opinions have largely been a reflection of all the voices inside of my own head (not schizo styled).  I have a gift of seeing things from many perspectives but unfortunately this can leave me very much indecisive in the middle ground.

 

LiterateParakeet, thank you for your strength as well.

[Leah]

I'm sorry, but the rights of the head of the house do not get to mean thought-control.

 

That last sentence is absolutely spot-on.  It describes the situation accurately.

 

Couple that with the guy dictating how many "squirts" of face wash his wife can use - it sets off all sorts of alarm bells in my head.

 

As for the references to "interfaith marriage" by some - they were both of the same faith when they married, so it is not like she knowingly and willingly entered into an "interfaith" marriage.  Yes, people change....people sometimes leave the church after marriage, etc., - but not all of the same precepts that apply to two people knowingly and willingly entering into an interfaith marriage apply here.

 

And I don't know how the word interfaith pertains to this situation.  The husband has no faith and is demanding that the wife not show hers.

[TheMountain]

If it has been only 3 wks since he told you of his changed feelings, then I think you need to give it more time before you make any major decisions. 

 

It sounds like your husband has some pretty strong feelings on things and I infer that you go along with them

I plan on giving it more time.  We're planning on getting a marriage therapist.  A non-religious type by his request.  He doesn't want anyone biased in the ways of the "story" of God.

 

My husband definitely has some strong opinions and I wouldn't say I go along with them, but I'll also say I'm somewhat of a passive type and have a tendency to avoid conflict if I don't think it really matters.  But I hold my ground on things that are important to me.  Like teaching my children the Gospel.  And using 2 squirts of facewash (because I really don't like acne). 

 

His other strong opinions include anarchy capitalism (recently evolved from libertarianism), which includes a myriad of opinions such as homeschooling our children.  I told him from the beginning I'm open to the idea of homeschooling but if my mental health can't handle it I'd quit.

 

 

If she is focused on devoting all her energies to her spouse rather than future children (and if he does the same), I guarantee you an answer will come-they will be able to find a compromise and a solution.

 

I think Bini is a pretty good example, from what she has said her and her husband have chosen to focus on supporting the central family unit (husband & wife) rather than having a child-centered marriage, because of that they have a good solution.

 

If they want to talk about parenting, rather than focus on the differences focus on the commonality. And I can almost guarantee you, they have absolutely 0 clue how to parent properly. For example, what are you going to do when your 5 year-old whines all the time (and it drives you crazy), or you put the kids to bed and they keep coming out, or one kid won't do his homework, or the 3 year old has a biting problem, or the 2 year old doesn't want to be potty trained, or the 3 year old steals things, or the 4 year old won't eat dinner etc, etc. etc.

 

Having family prayer at night and reading scriptures every day won't fix those problems (they may help give inspiration to the parents though!). Raising adults is a very practical endeavor and saying "well I want them to choose for themselves" in all things ends up creating spoiled brats. Believe me, there are plenty of religious things a religious mother can instill in their children without being overtly religious.

 

And if he is fulfilling his proper role of provider-he won't have much time to teach apostasy to his children, because he will be more focused on his wife and supporting her needs rather than teaching apostasy. Never underestimate the power or influence a mother has over her children!

 

I'd much rather be in TheMountain's shoes rather than in Bini's husbands shoes-no offense Bini :-)

 

Yjacket, truthfully it was slightly disconcerting to read your post from a 3rd party perspective, because you're talking about me and my husband and I came here for advice, not necessarily to be debated about.  Nevertheless you too have good points though I didn't like that you suggested if I devoted my energies to my husband we would be able to work something out... without mentioning him in that same sentence.  What I'm trying to say is I have devoted myself to him for a year.  He's extremely fond of children and does spend a lot of time thinking about how he wants to raise his children.  Unfortunately it was his search for peaceful parenting methods that ultimately led him the philosopher youtube channel that turned him away from God.  So yes, I agree, I would love it if he focused on our marriage more than how he wants to raise his children. And I don't claim to be exempt from this either, so thank you.

[TheMountain]

It seems odd to me that a person would make such a sudden transformation.  Could there be other things going on in the background, a porn addiction or drug use or even an affair or something else that would dissolve his testimony to the point where he would go off the deep end like this?  When a person goes off the path they can reach a point where they don't want it to be true so they look for an excuse to reject it and seek to eliminate any reminders of it.

We're pretty open about just about everything and I really think he would confess to me if it were porn.  There are definitely other things going on in the background though.  Basically, this philosopher you tube channel guy he listens to talks a lot about being abused as a child as do a lot of his "call in" types... My husband had some turmoil in his childhood.  His dad was emotionally abusive and would use scriptures to condemn his children and his wife when he was angry.  His parents are both members but his mom is a convert, and this ultimately led her to divorce him when my husband was 10 or 12.  He has what I call a "fairness" trigger.  He found it extremely unfair that his mom would use the line "because I'm the mom" when he would ask her why he had to do things (such as why can't I ask you about why you and dad got divorced?).  I suspect he's linked this to our doctrine of obeying God's commandments, or our priesthood leaders, because God said so.  He doesn't think God is a guy he'd like even if he did believe in him.  This is the first time he ever allowed himself to question the church.  He says earlier in life he always thought it was forbidden to even question the church or God and as such is having his first Faith Crisis.  

[yjacket]

Yjacket, I see your point. But if this proposed parenting is a deal-breaker for the OP (and who are we to judge another's deal-breakers) and sees it as enough to affect her marriage, especially when she entered the marriage with her husband making a covenant to raise any kids LDS, is it really so awful to end the marriage now if that's what this couple decides?

From the husband's perspective: his wife is balking at the new plan for the family. He clearly isn't willing to let her behave that way and remain his wife. From a 1950's family perspective, his wife isn't submitting to him. Should he have to stay in that marriage hoping she will leave the church or at least agree to hide it from any future kids?

 

I agree; that's why I've said it depends on which is more important. If children are more important than the marriage-then the marriage won't work. If the marriage as a whole is more important then children, it can work. It will take both of them committed to being married rather than being mother/father to make it work. Which is why I've continually said-they are both making this issue with kids a bigger issue than it needs to be.

 

I'm sorry, but the rights of the head of the house do not get to mean thought-control.

 

Absolutely agree! From what has been said I don't see thought control.

 

As with the 2 squirts, people say stupid stuff at times. Maybe money is really tight-maybe he was blowing off steam (inappropriately)-who knows.  If money is really tight, a proper solution is to say to husband. Honey, I understand you are stressed out about finances-put me on a budget-it can be a really strict budget-allow me the freedom to manage it. That way you don't have to be stressed out about 2 squirts because all you can then care about is whether I'm within the budget-anything I don't spend I get to keep for whatever I want.

 

People don't get married and automatically become one with unity-it takes a lot of time and experience.

Edited September 5, 2015 by yjacket

[Just_A_Guy]

My point is which is more important the marriage or children? LDS teaching directs that marriage is the foundation-not children.

 

I'm afraid I'm going to need quite a bit of persuasion on that one.  My interpretation of LDS teaching is that the major goal of marriage is to create a celestial union that--preferably now, and definitely in the hereafter--will raise up a righteous posterity.  It is about children; and a parent who announces from the get-go that he plans to undermine the faithful parent's attempts to rear those children in the Gospel is striking at an elemental part of the relationship.

 

They don't have children and having children changes your life. Granted people generally do what they say they are going to do . . .but if the marriage is solid, if/when they have children it won't be that huge of an issue-Bini is a great example (the marriage is solid-therefore a solution is worked out). We have a very small snippet of information into how things are actually working.

 

It's a huge issue if those children grow up being poisoned (perhaps irreparably) against the church by their father.  Bini's marriage is none of my business (I daresay this discussion is a bit of a surreal experience for her--sorry, Bini!); but suffice it to say, per the statistics I posted, the results are monumentally different in cases of a nonbelieving mother versus a nonbelieving father--the former children have a 2,200% higher chance of staying in the faith, than the latter children do.

 

In the actual practical day-to-day living of things you don't talk religion 24x7 to your kids-especially when they are very young. Children learn more about religion on how you actually live it vs. how you talk it. If he doesn't want it preached in his home that is one thing; if he doesn't want it lived in his home that is another.

 

I hope I don't sound like I'm tooting my own horn here, but . . . that's not my experience at all.  In our home, religious discussions come up frequently--partly as a matter of course, but also because I find that doing has little long-term effect if the children don't understand why Just_A_Girl and I do what we do.

 

I'll say it again-they are worrying about things that are at least 3 years down the road-if she got pregnant today.  A lot can happen in 3 years.

 

Sure, and maybe in 20 years he'll convert and the marriage will be all hunky dory.  But the kids won't just snap back into Mormonism because their father has a change of heart.  This happened with an uncle of mine--dropped out of activity while his kids were growing up, came back about a decade ago.  He has five kids ranging from their 30s to their 50s.  Only one kid, and two out of eleven grandkids, now consider themselves Mormon.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Irishcolleen]

I don't think the issue is that he is an atheist.  He sounds controlling.  If he even tells you how much face soap you can use he is extremely controlling and I think it is a sign that he has the potential to be abusive. I would hold off on having a baby. If he threatens you in anyway seek hep from a domestic violence center.

[Backroads]

yjacket, I'm 100% with you that the OP and her husband could have a great mixed-belief marriage if they're both willing to work at it. But I can't help worry about sudden demands of actions of belief--that demonstrates a likelihood of ignoring the other's feelings on the matter. Perhaps we're all just too removed from the idea of the Leader Husband and the Submissive Wife ideals without any exchange in between. And perhaps she will be blessed for simply going along with her husband in matters of religious expression.

 

But I feel there's a big difference between just following the leadership of the husband without any input and truly working on a marriage together. Husband and wife are to be helpmeets and I believe that does mean some amount of discussion.

 

We're probably on the exact same page here but with communication issues.

[Susheel]

I grew up in India in a very conservative environment. I was a devout believer of God until I came to Utah in fall of 2011 and gave up my belief in God after meeting the mormons. It wasn't just a simple choice. My experience was strikingly similar to what happened to Julia Sweeney if you care to know. I doubted the whole thing because it suddenly seemed very unrealistic to me. As others have suggested, people don't become atheists just to 'sin'. First, that doesn't even make any sense. If you 'sinned' and are just trying to cover up by saying you don't believe in God anymore you are not really an atheist. Right? Anyway it has been 4 years and I have softened up a lot (on religion) and I can probably relate to what your husband is going through and I probably also know the youtube channel your husband is referring to. 

 

Coming to your situation, your husband refuses to pray not because he does not care, but because he does not believe in God anymore. By the way, if you still love him after all this, you are the perfect wife! Your husband needs to realize that not everything needs to be rational, humans are way more emotional than rational most of the time. That being said, it's in our best interest to be as reasonable as possible with our expectations and desires. It leads to a happier and successful life. 

 

What your husband is trying to say to you is that kids are unable to reason what their parents teach them until they reach a certain age so maybe teaching the gospel as true might not give them a fair chance to understand/learn what other religions or philosophies teach, which I kind of agree with. I am an atheist but I've decided that when I get married, I would take my kids to as many churches/temples/places of worship as I can, whenever I get the chance to,  so they get a fair chance to learn about all cultures/beliefs and such so when they grow up they can adopt the religion/philosophy of their choosing.

 

Also, I do believe that your husband is using the word 'abuse' in a hyperbolic fashion. He probably just needs some time to cool off. Please try to think about the situation from his perspective. All his life, he grew up believing the church to be true. And now, he feels cheated on some level and is probably a little resentful. It's just him being human. I hope things work out for you guys. Do you guys live in Utah? I would love to talk to you both together. It hurts me when a family is torn apart especially over religious differences because I strongly believe your situation is workable. Good luck! 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

My Husband was the type of guy I wanted to marry.  It makes it all the more painful and all the more confusing.  Having him turn the tables to me and accuse me of being abusive when I tell him "you're trying to change me and I don't appreciate it" and he tells me, I am not trying to change you, and you're accusing me of these things, and that's abusive is incredibly confusing.  Having him tell me that teaching my children the gospel and asking them to accept it unconditionally as being abusive is also really confusing.  It's confusing because it's a sore spot for me, but I really think he's the one being abusive... I think that's why I posted here.  To see if anyone could agree with him.  I do have a therapist right now.  I got one to help me come off my medications a couple months ago so we could have children.  

 

His arguments are very circular and sound like "gas lighting", which is a common tactic for people who are abusive.  

I'd love for you to join us in a Facebook Group "LDS Women Healing from Abuse"  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1467033676884653/

It's possible I'm wrong about your husband, but I don't think so.  Talking to these ladies might help you gain more clarity either way.  Even if you are not certain that what you are experiencing is abuse, you will be welcome in the group.  If you need anonymity, you can set up an anonymous profile on FB, I had a friend who did that.  Send me a PM and I'll tell the group moderator that you are a friend of mine. 

I'm sorry about your mission experience.  That must have been awful.  Church, and missions shouldn't hurt but sometimes they do.  And now you have this to deal with.  I'm sorry.  Keep holding on, I think you are doing great. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

 His dad was emotionally abusive and would use scriptures to condemn his children and his wife when he was angry.  His parents are both members but his mom is a convert, and this ultimately led her to divorce him when my husband was 10 or 12.  He has what I call a "fairness" trigger.  He found it extremely unfair that his mom would use the line "because I'm the mom" when he would ask her why he had to do things (such as why can't I ask you about why you and dad got divorced?).  I suspect he's linked this to our doctrine of obeying God's commandments, or our priesthood leaders, because God said so.  He doesn't think God is a guy he'd like even if he did believe in him.  This is the first time he ever allowed himself to question the church.  He says earlier in life he always thought it was forbidden to even question the church or God and as such is having his first Faith Crisis.  

This explains a lot about your husband.  I can understand why he is struggling with his faith, and why he is controlling.  Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to see that he is repeating his father's mistakes.  He is now trying to control you just as his father tried to control him.  Your husband may think this is different because he took religion out of the picture....but religion never was the problem.  It's the need for control is the problem, and he is repeating his father's mistakes.  

 

It's not his faith-crisis that concerns me.  The need for control can easily become abuse.  That is what I worry about for you. 

[yjacket]

We're probably on the exact same page here but with communication issues.

 

I think we are pretty much on the same page.  I found a great article on a blog that I really agree with.

http://www.womeninthescriptures.com/2010/11/real-meaning-of-term-help-meet.html

 

And a comment in the blog that I like:

"God was not cursing. He was establishing chain-of-command. Without one, clearly defined, head, a group will not thrive and grow as it should. This is not a curse, it is a defined role. Proverbs 31 clearly lays out that a woman is not insignificant, yet she is submissive to her Godly head, her husband. Ephesians 5: 22 & 23 clearly establishes this. Yet the very next verses make it very clear what type of role the husband should play. Ephesians 5: 25-33 very effectively states that a husband should love his wife as Christ loves the Church. Christ loves the Church by sacrificing Himself for Her and providing all of Her needs. However, it does not stop there. Christ also loves the Church by providing clear-cut direction, admonition, and discipline to the Church. In fact, Paul states that whom the Lord loves, He rebukes and chastens. It is unfortunate that in times past, and still today, many husbands have a tendency to focus either on the husband's supportive role to his wife, and thus leaves her without strong leadership; or he focuses on the discipline role, and leaves her unsupported and uncherished."

But I can't help worry about sudden demands of actions of belief--that demonstrates a likelihood of ignoring the other's feelings on the matter. 

Oh it's a cause for concern; if he were posting here I'd give him some definite advice; but all I can do is post to the OP.

Perhaps we're all just too removed from the idea of the Leader Husband and the Submissive Wife ideals without any exchange in between. And perhaps she will be blessed for simply going along with her husband in matters of religious expression.

I think we are-it is my belief it is one of the major causes of marital discord and why marriages are so hard today-at least a lot harder than they need to be. Men and women get married but due to modern day progressive teaching-they have absolutely 0 clue as to what it means to be a husband and to be a wife. Due to the realities of life the scriptural basis of marriage was easily followed for thousands of years (historical record shows matriarchal societies are not the norm).

 

Our current society has switched in the last 100 years (and predominately in the last 35 years or so) from being a very strong patriarchal society to more matriarchal-and it is getting moreso every day.  Look at cartoon articles and shows, in the 50s the father was shown as predominate-the wise leader.  Now you have programs like the Croods that show the father as a bumbling baffoon and the teenage daughter as the one who saves the day.

 

Basically within 1 maybe 2 generations this switch has happened and consequently there is a significant societal clash between the proper roles of men and women in a marriage. It's the emasculation of men-I'm not sure many actually comprehend what is going on-but it is occurring.

[yjacket]

His other strong opinions include anarchy capitalism (recently evolved from libertarianism), which includes a myriad of opinions such as homeschooling our children.  I told him from the beginning I'm open to the idea of homeschooling but if my mental health can't handle it I'd quit.

I'd actually probably like him.  I'm very much libertarian and really more anarco-capitalist; I just don't think we can get from here to there without a lot of baby-steps.

 

My wife homeschools and if you train you children properly you won't have any problems with them or worries about mental health. What passes for modern day parenting has caused more mental health issues for women than anything else. Kindergarten is easy-1st is not bad, by the time they get to 2nd-3rd grade they should start getting to the point of pretty much teaching themselves.  If that doesn't work there are some absolutely great online private schools that merge homeschooling with private schooling that teach traditional education.  My son is studying Latin this year in 3rd grade-how cool is that!

 

Yjacket, truthfully it was slightly disconcerting to read your post from a 3rd party perspective, because you're talking about me and my husband and I came here for advice, not necessarily to be debated about.  

That's okay-I didn't mean to offend and I don't take any offense at it. I'm not sure exactly which part was disconcerting. All the things I mentioned are things that I have learned from the school of hard-knocks of life and I try to pass on what I've learned to help others.  

 

My wife and I previously fell into the trap of focusing so much on children that we were in effect divorced; things weren't going well at home for a variety of reasons and it was a mess.  The more that we have changed ourselves to the way God would have it-the more we have embraced our roles-the better things have gone.

 What I'm trying to say is I have devoted myself to him for a year. 

A year, and your point is? Are you willing to devote yourself to him specifically for the rest of your life and the rest of eternity-because that's the covenant you made-you didn't make that covenant to your potential children. Life is hard and it can knock you upside the head faster than you can think. It ain't all peaches and roses. Wait 'till you find out your child is retarded, or you are sterile, or your husband is out of work for a year, or you get cancer. Do you and him stand by each other no matter what life throws at you?   

 

And I assure you this much-in as much he does not treat you properly-God will visit him.  

He's extremely fond of children and does spend a lot of time thinking about how he wants to raise his children.  Unfortunately it was his search for peaceful parenting methods that ultimately led him the philosopher youtube channel that turned him away from God.

 

I do not say this at all to be combative; but what are you doing to prepare yourself to raise children. What baby books are you reading to understand the development cycle of a child? Parenting is and should be the most natural thing in the world-unfortunately due to the philosophies of men we have forgotten how to parent. The main things with kids are after 2ish; they should pretty much be left to their own devices (kick them outside-go play) and when you tell them to do something, they better obey-without question-without gruff. John Rosemond-read his books.

 

I actually personally believe that my way of parenting is the most libertarian way of raising children.

 

My personal opinion is that if they guy is actually libertarian then he most likely will not be abusive.  Being libertarian is generally about giving individuals and people more freedom rather than less.

Edited September 6, 2015 by yjacket

[yjacket]

 He has what I call a "fairness" trigger.  He found it extremely unfair that his mom would use the line "because I'm the mom" when he would ask her why he had to do things (such as why can't I ask you about why you and dad got divorced?).  I suspect he's linked this to our doctrine of obeying God's commandments, or our priesthood leaders, because God said so.  He doesn't think God is a guy he'd like even if he did believe in him.  This is the first time he ever allowed himself to question the church.  He says earlier in life he always thought it was forbidden to even question the church or God and as such is having his first Faith Crisis.  

ROTFLOL . . .fairness trigger.  Once you have kids, you realize one of the best things you can teach them is "life isn't fair-get over it". And the best line you can use with kids is "because I said so" or "because I'm the mom". No is the best medicine for a child.

 

The thing with kids and adults is that until a child actually is an adult you are a superior being to them.  They are not your equal in any shape or form.  Your goal is to raise them to be an adult so they can be a superior being. As such, because you are they are on an unequal footing, the line "because I said so" is perfectly valid. At 12, your husband was no equal to your mother and if she deemed that she didn't need to give him a reason so be it. Now at 20-x and hopefully an adult-if he asked her why, I bet she could give a reason.

 

With God, we are currently not his equal- his objective is to raise us up so that we can be like him.  Because we are not his equal-God has the perfect right to say because I said so. 

 

And honestly, in my life I have found humble obedience to God in my prayers, simply saying God I will submit to your will-I would like this-but you know best-whatever thy hast for my life.  It makes life go much easier.

 

Actually, I'm not worried to much about him-if he has kids ...he'll learn.

[TheMountain]

What your husband is trying to say to you is that kids are unable to reason what their parents teach them until they reach a certain age so maybe teaching the gospel as true might not give them a fair chance to understand/learn what other religions or philosophies teach, which I kind of agree with. I am an atheist but I've decided that when I get married, I would take my kids to as many churches/temples/places of worship as I can, whenever I get the chance to,  so they get a fair chance to learn about all cultures/beliefs and such so when they grow up they can adopt the religion/philosophy of their choosing.

 I think you say it better than I do.  I have a hard time conveying things as he would because of my own judgements on the situation.  However, he wishes not to take his children to any church because he feels they would be indoctrinated there by other people.  

 

And yes, we live in Utah.

[Jane_Doe]

Teaching your children to love the Gospel is a lot like teaching them to love reading: you teach them through example (showing how much you love it) and through experience (doing it with them at first, and then by themselves when they can).  We do these things because they are good, and it would be silly to delay sharing goodness until they're "old enough".  

 

While we hope that when children are grown, that they will love the things we do, there is not guarantee-- it's always that person's choice and no one is "brainwashed".  Parents just hope and provide the best example they can-- that's all we can do really.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Jane_Doe

[yjacket]

However, he wishes not to take his children to any church because he feels they would be indoctrinated there by other people.  

The act of raising up adults is indoctrination-it is inherent in being a parent.  

 

It doesn't matter what focus area it is, it could be religion, how you treat other people, it could be school. That is the whole point of raising the next generation-take what I have learned imprint it to the next generation, guide them and hope they don't make the same mistakes I have and that they make the right decisions I have made.

 

Indoctrination isn't a bad thing; shoot take a look at the first part of wikipedia:

 

Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine).^[1] Indoctrination is a critical component in the transfer of cultures,customs, and traditions from one generation to the next.

 

Indoctrination is absolutely critical to ensure the cohesion of society; without a unified underlying indoctrination a society can not and will not function properly. Accept the fact that whatever you do with your children-whether you take them to church or not, no matter what you do with them- you will be indoctrinating them.

 

Personally, I think due to TV, internet, mass social media, etc. massive societal problems are occurring because the indoctrination that parents have given their children are being overridden by other means.  Instead of parents being parents-they are appendages and the real parents end up being TV shows, youtube, facebook, movies, etc. But JMO. 

[Latter-Day Marriage]

So I'm in a little different camp here (I don't think it is anyone's right to tell a stranger when they should have children,when to get married, etc.those are personal decisions that can only be made with the help of God);

 

Which is more important to you being married to your husband and being a wife? or being a mother?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/7.14?lang=eng#13

 

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace

 

Do we believe the scriptures or not?

 

My mother joined the church a couple years after my parent's married, and my Dad didn't join for a long time after that, but he did eventually join.  He did not however stop my mother from living her faith like this guy is trying to do. 

I wouldn't say she should divorce him, but I don't think he has a right to force her to live by his atheism.  I think she should live according to her faith, pray, read the scriptures, etc. and if he chooses to divorce her over that, that is his choice, not hers. 

[TheMountain]

Last night he compared our relationship to a lumpy basketball that would be easier to replace than repair.  He's divorcing me.  Thanks for everyone's comments.  Keep me in your prayers.  And pray for him too.  I hurt.  If anyone wants to shoot me advice about healing from divorce I could probably use it.  Or how to get through this semi gracefully.

[Jane_Doe]

Keep your dignity, get a good lawyer, and if it's what's truly to be get it over with fast like peeling a bandaid.

 

There is much hope for you Mountain, this will hurt but it will not define you.  There is still great happiness in your future.

[Vort]

I am sorry for your pain. For whatever consolation it might provide, divorcing without children is about ten thousand times less ugly and painful than divorcing with children. If there is getting out to be done, now is the time to do it.