estradling75 Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) I didn't say either. I'm saying there is a purpose to the gun free zone. It is to assure some level of safety and peace of mind. Some level does not mean 'complete'. I think it misplaced to think a gun free zone makes it a target. The focus needs to be on the shooter not the gun. You contradict yourself... If we focus on the shooter we quickly realize that for the purpose of the shooter more gun free zones is exactly what they want... Places they can go and massacre and rack up a high body count before they are stopped. Gun free zone by their very nature focus on the gun(s) and not on shooter Edited October 5, 2015 by estradling75 Leah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) I'm saying there is a purpose to the gun free zone. It is to assure some level of safety and peace of mind. Some level does not mean 'complete'. Oh, I get the second one - "assure some level of peace of mind". Translated = helping people feel safe, because there's a sign that says 'no guns'. That's only thing gun free zones accomplish - giving people a false sense of security. Big difference between feeling safe and being safe. I don't get your first claim at all. Gun free zones do jack squat to "assure some level of safety". Your original statement: "The point of gun free zones it to keep irrational idiots from shooting someone because of an offense (argument). That and people who think they can handle a gun and shoot themselves in the bathroom, by accident. I'm all for gun free zones, as a deterent to idiots." I see you acknowledge gun free zones do nothing to deter a bad guy intent on doing bad things. Good deal. I hope the common sense spreads. I've been arguing the point with people for decades. But you seem to think that 'irrational idiots', who may go shoot someone because of an offense, will leave their guns at home because they realize the will be standing in a gun free zone. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Human behavior doesn't work that way. "Gee, I'm a hotheaded idiot. I usually walk around with my gun and look for trouble, but I'm going to a movie theater that bans guns, so I guess I'll leave the thing home." - said nobody, ever. Got any evidence to support this claim? Because right now, I'm not buying it. You're line of reasoning is not persuasive. Edited October 5, 2015 by NeuroTypical mordorbund, mirkwood and Leah 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Sweet Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 I've known of many men who carry in church. I work in the Temple on Saturdays and I asked about security one day. There is an alarm system that goes to Salt Lake, that is all. Does anybody carry in the Temple? Several times while standing in the foyerI've thought about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Sweet Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 I agree with david13, :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Sweet Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 I agree with david13, :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 I've known of many men who carry in church. I work in the Temple on Saturdays and I asked about security one day. There is an alarm system that goes to Salt Lake, that is all. Does anybody carry in the Temple? Several times while standing in the foyerI've thought about this. I do when I arrive, but during sessions etc. no, it gets locked up with my clothing. The exception would be a sealing that I was attending. There is armed security at the temples, but not in great numbers and I do not know anything about their schedules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkstpaul Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 The exception would be a sealing that I was attending. That says everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Off the top of my head, the Boston bombers did not kill themselves, the Trolley Square shooter did not kill himself, Charleston church shooter did not kill himself, Colorado movie theater shooter did not kill himself. A great many do, but not all.The bomber doesn't count since that was a bomb and not a gun. Let's stay on topic. I thought we were talking about "shooters".The Trolley square shooter may or may not count. He moved away from the off-duty cop after missing a couple shots, but later exchanged fire with that same cop and another uniform before getting shot. While he didn't shoot himself, it may have been a "suicide by cop".The Charleston shooter declared his intention to shoot himself but ran out of bullets before he could do it.The CO shooter also ran out of bullets. He was out to his car to reload as the police came. They found him so "detached" mentally no one could tell what his intentions were. But he was placed on suicide watch for his first days in jail. Also may or may not count. Any others? I am not on either side on this topic, but if we're keeping score I think we need to look a little deeper than did they or didn't they. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 That says everything. How so? mordorbund 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) I do when I arrive, but during sessions etc. no, it gets locked up with my clothing. The exception would be a sealing that I was attending. There is armed security at the temples, but not in great numbers and I do not know anything about their schedules. M- Thank you for carrying. It means a lot to me that you care enough about our safety to put yourself at risk. I say that in all humility and seriousness. My wife is also a CC person. My permit expired last year and I've been too lazy/stupid to renew. Edited October 8, 2015 by MormonGator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Ok, we can drop the bombers, though they did engage in a shootout. The Trolley Square shooter had ample opportunity to off himself between the first and second engagements with police. Charleston shooter, well, criminals say a lot of things after they are in custody. Believe me, the tough talk can be rampant post handcuffing. He did not kill himself. The Colorado shooter had ample time to shoot himself before the police arrived and did not. The Ft. Hood shooter did not kill himself. The Tucson shooter did not kill himself. We go out of country and there are some more. Most do kill themselves, not all do, I'm not sure why you want to argue this point. FTR, I purposely refuse to name the shooters. NeuroTypical 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 FTR, I purposely refuse to name the shooters. So do I! Smart man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Well, get off yer butt and renew it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 But you seem to think that 'irrational idiots', who may go shoot someone because of an offense, will leave their guns at home because they realize the will be standing in a gun free zone. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Human behavior doesn't work that way. "Gee, I'm a hotheaded idiot. I usually walk around with my gun and look for trouble, but I'm going to a movie theater that bans guns, so I guess I'll leave the thing home." - said nobody, ever. I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to this claim. Most people aren't always careful, or always irrational idiots. I can see a situation where an ordinarily conscientious individual with a CCW just "snaps" at some point and attacks--say--an ex-girlfriend, or a teacher who gave a bad grade, or a co-worker, or what-have you. But, all things considered, I'd much rather face a shooter in a spur-of-the-moment fury in a room containing a couple of other CCWs; than a shooter who spent the last three weeks planning his crime in a room where he's holding the only firearms within in a thousand-foot radius. I do when I arrive, but during sessions etc. no, it gets locked up with my clothing. I assume you meant that it gets locked up with your street clothing. Otherwise, I'd have to ask--what kind of temple are you talking about, exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Well, get off yer butt and renew it!I know! I'm such a slacker! You can also add shooting to the things I'm not very good at. It's probably better for all of us if I stick to karate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I assume you meant that it gets locked up with your street clothing. Otherwise, I'd have to ask--what kind of temple are you talking about, exactly? When in Rome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordorbund Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 When in Rome First the rumors of a cross, now nudity. Can't the temple in Rome get a break!? mirkwood 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I can see a situation where an ordinarily conscientious individual with a CCW just "snaps" at some point and attacks--say--an ex-girlfriend, or a teacher who gave a bad grade, or a co-worker, or what-have you. JAG, this was an arguable point back in the 1980's, when states started adopting conceal-carry laws. It's sort of a less-sensationalistic version of the arguments we actually got: "Blood will run in the streets!" or "Conceal carry will turn our cities into the wild west!" But it's really not arguable any more. Not after all the decade-and-longer studies that have shown it simply isn't the case. We studied lots of demographic groups. Men, women, rich, poor, white, black, young, old. Political affiliations. Put them all in a room, and make the permit-holders stand over there. That group, the studies show, all had lower (in some cases, nonexistent) rates of violent crime involving guns. Yeah, you can find some. Anecdotes exist. But the overall point is valid - permit holders are less violent, more law-abiding, than their non-permit holding neighbors. I can dig up studies if you like - they pretty much put the notion to rest. Just_A_Guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) Oh, sure; I don't disagree that such incidents are rare. I just think it's worth acknowledging that they do happen (as do accidents--ahem) while properly characterizing these sorts of risks as the lesser of two evils. Edited October 8, 2015 by Just_A_Guy NeuroTypical 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 The Conference Center has numerous armed personnel inside and out. My ward has armed security every Sunday too.are you serious? Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 I do when I arrive, but during sessions etc. no, it gets locked up with my clothing. The exception would be a sealing that I was attending. There is armed security at the temples, but not in great numbers and I do not know anything about their schedules.There is no armed security at the Detroit Temple. there is no security at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 Hi Sunday21 - Mirkwood is a cop. I think (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) he was referring to the fact that he carries while he's at church. - Please cite your source about no armed security at the Detroit Temple. mirkwood 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdowis Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 Security at our stake conference--We have several members who are police officers, and carry weapons off duty. When a General Authority was visiting stake conference, one of them was sitting on on the far left side of the stand and was constantly scanning the audience.The look on his face clearly said, "Don't try it." When the conference was over, I went up to meet the GA, and it was obvious that he was carefully being watched over by several people. After all, this is the South. mirkwood and Blackmarch 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdowis Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) If we could get people to stop texting while driving and other risky things that would help. Yeah, and it would help if we could only get shooters to text while they are shooting. Edited October 10, 2015 by cdowis LeSellers and mirkwood 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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