A thought about dealing with Islamic terrorists


Traveler
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How can we convince Islamic terrorists that their methods are evil?  I have pondered this problem and have a thought.  My idea would do away with the need for TSA, surveillance and a raft of other expensive programs that are simply not working.   Interesting terrorists seem to be on a suicide mission and end up getting killed.  So here is my plan.

 

Take the dead bodies of the terrorists and decapitate them.  This is a sign in Islam that the individual displeased Allah.  In the religion of Islam burial is important so instead of burring the decapitated body – cremate it and dispose of the ashes in the sewers of the community they defiled.  Take the head and burn “Infidel” deep into the skull written in Arabic script, place nuclear waste in the skull and place the skull facing downward (looking toward hell) under nuclear waste at the Hanford Reservation in Washington State (this to symbolize eternally burning).   

 

This would provide a deterrent and eliminate any propaganda advantage used by terrorist organizations and make it impossible to use the individuals as martyrs.  I know this sound gruesome but I do believe it would actually put a stop to religious terrorisms.

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You should run this idea past Prof. Peterson at BYU.  He's loudly and often on the record for despising ISIS and everything they stand for.  If it's a bad idea, he'd tell you why.  I'm not near well-versed enough to comment.

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Well, it seems like a good idea, but maybe a little too too.

So I guess I'm against it, but on the other hand ...

Was this your idea or did you get this from someone or somewhere else?

Would all this be done in public?  You know, like the British used to do, on the public streets, with the drawing and quartering.

I suppose it would have to be done in public ...

I don't know.

I'm sure somebody will say "it's over the top".

dc

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Why do you suppose Muslims would take anything we might do to the corpses of Islamic militants as a sign from God, or as anything other than a filthy desecration at the hands of the decadent West and yet more proof that we must be destroyed at all costs?

 

I'm totally with you on this.  What is suggested or proposed only adds fuel to the fire of justification in their minds.

 

Are the extremists really going by the actual law of Islam or what Allah would want?

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We could take a lesson from history - 

1945 
MacArthur orders end of Shinto as Japanese state religion
 
On this day, General Douglas MacArthur, in his capacity as Supreme Commander of Allied Powers in the Pacific, brings an end to Shintoism as Japan’s established religion. The Shinto system included the belief that the emperor, in this case Hirohito, was divine.
 
On September 2, 1945 aboard the USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay, MacArthur signed the instrument of Japanese surrender on behalf of the victorious Allies. Before the economic and political reforms the Allies devised for Japan’s future could be enacted, however, the country had to be demilitarized. Step one in the plan to reform Japan entailed the demobilization of Japan’s armed forces, and the return of all troops from abroad. Japan had had a long history of its foreign policy being dominated by the military, as evidenced by Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoye’s failed attempts to reform his government and being virtually pushed out of power by career army officer Hideki Tojo.
 
Step two was the dismantling of Shintoism as the Japanese national religion. Allied powers believed that serious democratic reforms, and a constitutional form of government, could not be put into place as long as the Japanese people looked to an emperor as their ultimate authority. Hirohito was forced to renounce his divine status, and his powers were severely limited—he was reduced to little more than a figurehead. And not merely religion, but even compulsory courses on ethics—the power to influence the Japanese population’s traditional religious and moral duties—were wrenched from state control as part of a larger decentralization of all power.

 

 

We bomb the countries that produce terrorists until they submit and reject Islam. We rain pigs blood on Mecca and Medina and then wipe them off the map and warn any countries that produce terrorists going forward will be held responsible.

 

But I don't think this will happen.

 

In the end I think it will always exist until the final battle between good and evil.

Edited by Windseeker
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Take the dead bodies of the terrorists and decapitate them... cremate it and dispose of the ashes in the sewers of the community they defiled...Take the head and burn “Infidel” deep into the skull written in Arabic script, place nuclear waste in the skull and place the skull facing downward (looking toward hell) under nuclear waste at the Hanford Reservation in Washington State (this to symbolize eternally burning).   

 

 

And the poor souls that have to carry this out? I can't imagine what that would do to someone as a day job. 

 

Could it work? Perhaps. But I agree with Anatess, that is not who we are. 

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Just to be politically correct, I do believe a good portion of the faithful Muslims in the world do not want to use violence as a method of proselytizing.  And to desecrate Mecca and Medina as a form of intimidation against the terrorists is not the right way to go about it.

 

As far as the desecration of the bodies... ehrm... Traveler... did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

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Why do you suppose Muslims would take anything we might do to the corpses of Islamic militants as a sign from God, or as anything other than a filthy desecration at the hands of the decadent West and yet more proof that we must be destroyed at all costs?

 

It makes sense to me.  The concept of agency seems to take a back stage in Islam to the concept of insha'Allah.  Basically, it doesn't matter what we do, we will succeed or fail according to God's will.  If you end up with your head cut off and your ashes in a sewer, then obviously Allah is not pleased with you, and people can look at your life to think about why God would have you end up that way.

 

But again, Traveller should really run this idea past Dr. Peterson, who could speak from a position of scholarly knowledge.  He's fairly accessible through his blog comments and facebook, if not email him directly.  

Edited by NeuroTypical
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One defining characteristic of religious terrorists is that they heavily disregard religious customs and doctrines that interfere with their own agendas. This is a major reason why desecration would not work. They would still find a way to paint the dead as martyrs and use our actions to recruit more terrorists.

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One defining characteristic of religious terrorists is that they heavily disregard religious customs and doctrines that interfere with their own agendas. This is a major reason why desecration would not work. They would still find a way to paint the dead as martyrs and use our actions to recruit more terrorists.

 

Touche.  Al-Baghdadi isn't going to say "oh, they're decapitating our fighters/burying them under nuclear waste/dousing them in pigs' blood, so I guess we'd better quit fighting them if we want to go to Heaven!"  He'll come up with a new theological exception that lets them go to heaven anyways, those already inclined to accept his authority or to kill ISIS' enemies will accept it, and they will fight on.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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One defining characteristic of religious terrorists is that they heavily disregard religious customs and doctrines that interfere with their own agendas. 

 

Why on earth do you believe this?  

 

When it comes to Islamic terrorists, your claim is totally factually false.  YouTube is full of terrorist videos, and those videos are full of shouts of Allah'u'akbar and scriptural justifications.  Remember the beheading in Oakland?  You can youtube up accounts of how these guys are recruited and trained - it's absolutely immersed in religious custom and doctrine.  

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Why on earth do you believe this?  

 

When it comes to Islamic terrorists, your claim is totally factually false.  YouTube is full of terrorist videos, and those videos are full of shouts of Allah'u'akbar and scriptural justifications.  Remember the beheading in Oakland?  You can youtube up accounts of how these guys are recruited and trained - it's absolutely immersed in religious custom and doctrine.  

 

Godless is actually right on this one.  Terrorist groups mangle religious doctrine to fit into their cultural agenda.

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... YouTube is full of terrorist videos, and those videos are full of shouts of Allah'u'akbar and scriptural justifications...

 

It's kind of like... how did you put it? ... Waving a gun around and holding up a flag pretending you're Captain Moroni?

 

EDIT:  Sorry, not to equate.  Just to draw a parallel.

Edited by Guest
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Why on earth do you believe this?  

 

When it comes to Islamic terrorists, your claim is totally factually false.  YouTube is full of terrorist videos, and those videos are full of shouts of Allah'u'akbar and scriptural justifications.  Remember the beheading in Oakland?  You can youtube up accounts of how these guys are recruited and trained - it's absolutely immersed in religious custom and doctrine.  

 

But not the ones that interfere with their agendas. Pretty sure that was Godless's point.

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Why on earth do you believe this?  

 

When it comes to Islamic terrorists, your claim is totally factually false.  YouTube is full of terrorist videos, and those videos are full of shouts of Allah'u'akbar and scriptural justifications.  Remember the beheading in Oakland?  You can youtube up accounts of how these guys are recruited and trained - it's absolutely immersed in religious custom and doctrine.  

 

Note the last part of my statement "...that interfere with their own agendas". Yes, Islamic extremists will use scripture and religious principles to justify their actions. What they won't do is allow scripture and religious principles to deter them from their path. They pick and choose which doctrines they want to focus on and ignore the rest. That was my point. I never tried to suggest that terrorists ignore religious teachings completely.

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I suppose maybe I'm wondering why folks automatically assume that people so passionate about a cause that they're willing to kill (or recruit people to kill) will also automatically be guilty of setting aside their own beliefs in order to kill.  

 

Are we uncomfortable with the notion that folks that extreme might actually walk their talk and vice-versa?

 

Or maybe we're uncomfortable with the notion that such extreme actions can and are actually acceptable in a system of comprehensive and honest religious belief?

Edited by NeuroTypical
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Are we uncomfortable with the notion that folks that extreme might actually walk their talk and vice-versa?

 

So, would vice-versa be "folks that walk their talk might actually be that extreme"?

 

 

Or maybe we're uncomfortable with the notion that such extreme actions can and are actually acceptable in a system of religious belief?

 

I'll say something extremely unpopular.  Extreme faith may be what this world is lacking.  Not necessarily THEIR faith, but ...

Edited by Guest
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We seem to be forever fighting this year’s war and conflicts with last year’s strategies and mythologies.  The problem is that our enemy is not fighting the war we are prepared to fight and win.  That is the key – to win and end the conflict.  In the Book of Mormon a particular general (Teamcum) thought to win wars with strategy.  Instead of meeting his enemy on the battlefield he would sneak into their encampments at night when they were sleeping and put a javelin through the heart of their leader.  Hardly a fair fight or a gentleman’s method.

   

Part of our problem in fighting Islamic terrorists is that we do not understand their motivations and purposes.  We do not understand how they can slaughter women and children without blinking an eye and claim they are about Allah’s business.   This is because many Muslims (especially extremists) believe that nothing can happen except that Allah not only allows it but that what happens is according to his plan, will and intension.  In other words the fact that women and children die horribly is somehow part of Allah’s plan.  There are some similarities in Islam to Christianity – for example Muslims believe in an end of day and that good will be separated from evil – and that evil will have a mark on their foreheads that will identify them as infidels.  

 

My suggestion is to use this doctrine to our advantage.  And we can do it without killing anyone or even firing a shot.  It is all actions taken after the fact and without great costs for security.  The point is to deal directly with the issue in a matter to return all the advantage to us (to win); to convince the enemy not to perform acts of terrorism.  Obviously nothing we have done so far has worked.   We need some new ideas.

 

We will not have to beg for moderate Muslims to encourage their sons and daughters – kith and kin – to not become radicalized.  The point is to beat the terrorists at their war and convince them not to engage in terrorism.  It is not a method to fight them in their homeland – it is a method to convince them not to bring the terror to our homes and families.  It is a way to keep our nation safe without creating a police state here and a way to end the worry of terrorists at places we have intended for peace.

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Teancum...

   

Part of our problem in fighting Islamic terrorists is that we do not understand their motivations and purposes.  We do not understand how they can slaughter women and children without blinking an eye and claim they are about Allah’s business. 

Teancum took on the role of an assassin.  I have no problem using assassins given the right circumstances and motivations.  But that was not your initial idea.

 

*****************************

 

I believe you underestimate what we understand.  I understand perfectly who we're up against and why they do what they do. But I don't see how your proposals in the OP would address any of that.

 

What I see is a situation very similar to Lachoneus and the Gadiantons.  I hope I'm not mixing up stories in my head.  There were some things that they couldn't do to defend themselves.  But they saw no way to defend themselves without breaking some cardinal rules of "righteous" warfare -- like, you don't strike first.  While we have not struck first, we have other rules that are just as certain and just as strong.  This tends to handicap us a bit.  

 

While in war, many constraints are by necessity loosened.  But if we really believe our principles and we believe in God's justice and protection, then we have to declare that there are some lines we just don't cross.  While I'm not the guru to tell anyone what those lines are, we have to recognize such lines exist.

Edited by Guest
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We seem to be forever fighting this year’s war and conflicts with last year’s strategies and mythologies.  The problem is that our enemy is not fighting the war we are prepared to fight and win.  That is the key – to win and end the conflict.  In the Book of Mormon a particular general (Teamcum) thought to win wars with strategy.  Instead of meeting his enemy on the battlefield he would sneak into their encampments at night when they were sleeping and put a javelin through the heart of their leader.  Hardly a fair fight or a gentleman’s method.

   

Part of our problem in fighting Islamic terrorists is that we do not understand their motivations and purposes.  We do not understand how they can slaughter women and children without blinking an eye and claim they are about Allah’s business.   

 

I am thinking you don't understand their motivations and purposes either if you believe your OP solution will end the war.

 

Radical Muslims do not slaughter women and children without blinking an eye and claim they are about Allah's business because they are Muslims.  If that's the case then "radical muslims" will be a majority in the Muslim faith.

 

Radical Muslims strap bombs on their bodies and volunteer to die a horrible death because they believe it will save their children from the harsh realities of their own existence.  Therefore, it is not just being Muslim that makes them this way.  It is a cultural regression that made them easily manipulated by Gadiantons who use Islam to seemingly give these people hope for a better future for their children.  The Islam they preach is, of course, twisted to their own agenda.  It's not the same Islam that the majority of Muslims practice.  This is evidenced by the many Muslims that are just as much a victim to their cause as the Christians.

 

If you take away Islam - twisted or otherwise - the Gadiantons are simply going to find another "storyline" to feed the destitute to rally them to strap bombs on their bodies.  This is what happens when you have a regressed culture living within stone's throw away from a progressed culture.  Somebody with a good dose of charm can rally the destitute to equalize their stations.

 

This happens in the US as well.  But, because we still have a majority that adheres to the Constitution, you don't see the Gadiantons rallying the destitute to behead the progressed.  Rather, you wage a Class War where you use crowd-pleasing political slogans to redistribute the wealth.

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I am thinking you don't understand their motivations and purposes either if you believe your OP solution will end the war.

 

Radical Muslims do not slaughter women and children without blinking an eye and claim they are about Allah's business because they are Muslims.  If that's the case then "radical muslims" will be a majority in the Muslim faith.

 

Radical Muslims strap bombs on their bodies and volunteer to die a horrible death because they believe it will save their children from the harsh realities of their own existence.  Therefore, it is not just being Muslim that makes them this way.  It is a cultural regression that made them easily manipulated by Gadiantons who use Islam to seemingly give these people hope for a better future for their children.  The Islam they preach is, of course, twisted to their own agenda.  It's not the same Islam that the majority of Muslims practice.  This is evidenced by the many Muslims that are just as much a victim to their cause as the Christians.

 

If you take away Islam - twisted or otherwise - the Gadiantons are simply going to find another "storyline" to feed the destitute to rally them to strap bombs on their bodies.  This is what happens when you have a regressed culture living within stone's throw away from a progressed culture.  Somebody with a good dose of charm can rally the destitute to equalize their stations.

 

This happens in the US as well.  But, because we still have a majority that adheres to the Constitution, you don't see the Gadiantons rallying the destitute to behead the progressed.  Rather, you wage a Class War where you use crowd-pleasing political slogans to redistribute the wealth.

 

I would be interested in why you are convinced that the terrorists that we have on record for the attacks here in the USA are devoted family individuals with children?  Let alone any documented devotion for children (especially non Muslims children).   I personally know several Muslims that are devoted to family and in all cases it would seem the more devoted they are to family - the more they are not supportive of any kind of terrorist activity.  

 

Also from the propaganda I have researched concerning radicalization within the Islamic community - it is very heavy on rewards in the next life - this is quite different than my understanding of Gadianton style propaganda that is much more focused on rewards (power and money) in this life.   If we are to win the propaganda challenge we must do so by convincing those that would be terrorist or those that back terrorists that there are server consequences far beyond this life that have a definite impact in the next life.

 

I do not think we can counter the current terrorist threat with a mantra of, "Can't we all just be nice and get along with one another?"  In general it has been my observation throughout history that when one group want to take something from another group and is willing to use force and violence that those that are not willing to match the force and violence - will loose much more that what was initially demanded.

Edited by Traveler
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