Remembering our pre mortal life.

[Ljones3]

When will we be able to remember our pre mortal life? When we die or after we are resurrected?

 

[zil]

My personal belief is that in general, we won't remember until the resurrection (or thereabouts).  Otherwise, there would be no need to preach the Gospel to the spirits in prison.  I also suspect each of us will remember as we are ready to, that the veil will get thinner and thinner (or thicker and thicker, I suppose) until we are worthy of passing through it.

This goes along with my other suspicion that one of the reasons the veil is needed in order for mortality to work is to determine who is righteous away from God's presence - in other words, his presence is so powerful, that at least some of us will obey for that fact alone.  Only with the veil can we learn for ourselves what we really want, whether we're willing to live the kind of life God lives, no matter what.

All that said, the only thing I can think of from scripture or doctrine is the fact that the Gospel must be preached to the spirits in prison.  From that, I infer all the rest.

[The Folk Prophet]

Judgment day.

[Guest]

I had supposed that the veil is partially due to our mortal bodies and partially due to sin (separation from God).  Those in Spirit Prison may be freed from the mortal coil but are still separated from God.  At the judgment they are brought before God "with a bright recollection of all (their) guilt."

[Vort]

Another way to ask this question is, "What is the nature of the veil of forgetfulness?" We do not know the answer to that. I personally am not convinced that we ever have a full recall of all we have experienced. Those who are exalted have access to all truth, which is to say all knowledge of things past, present, and future, so in effect they will "remember" their premortal experiences, one way or another. But it is not obvious to me that we all at some point have "the veil" suddenly and magically "removed", at which point we "remember" everything from before our birth.

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

Another way to ask this question is, "What is the nature of the veil of forgetfulness?" We do not know the answer to that. I personally am not convinced that we ever have a full recall of all we have experienced. Those who are exalted have access to all truth, which is to say all knowledge of things past, present, and future, so in effect they will "remember" their premortal experiences, one way or another. But it is not obvious to me that we all at some point have "the veil" suddenly and magically "removed", at which point we "remember" everything from before our birth.

As much as I agree that we do not know the answer to that...it strikes me that it seems (to me) obvious that we will. It seems (to me) a silly idea that we would, should, or could forget those trials, experiences, and choices that we made in the pre-earth life, including--and most importantly--exactly who our Father is, our relationship to Him, how close we actually were, etc., etc...

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

As much as I agree that we do not know the answer to that...it strikes me that it seems (to me) obvious that we will. It seems (to me) a silly idea that we would, should, or could forget those trials, experiences, and choices that we made in the pre-earth life, including--and most importantly--exactly who our Father is, our relationship to Him, how close we actually were, etc., etc...

That depends entirely on the nature of our spiritual memory -- again, not something we have any insight into. One model suggests that our experiences and choices create our spiritual condition, and thus the record of our past is somehow literally woven into the fabric of our spiritual existence. This is a fine-sounding model, but it's just words. The reality of reality is surely far different from any of our mental representations of reality.

[The Folk Prophet]

24 minutes ago, Vort said:

That depends entirely on the nature of our spiritual memory -- again, not something we have any insight into. One model suggests that our experiences and choices create our spiritual condition, and thus the record of our past is somehow literally woven into the fabric of our spiritual existence. This is a fine-sounding model, but it's just words. The reality of reality is surely far different from any of our mental representations of reality.

That all being said...I could swear I've read somewhere at some point by someone (in some level of authority) that we will recall our pre-earth lives someday. Maybe I can find something.

[Guest]

I don't mean this as an insult.  But isn't that a cop out?  We could essentially say the same thing about virtually any eternal principle.  So why bother studying or pondering anything?  It's similar to "the worm" mentality (was that what PC called it?).  

Just because we can't know all, doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to study, ponder, and pray for revelation of all things.

In that vein, I'm not sure if what you meant is what I'm inferring.  I think we can agree that we will at some point remember everything perfectly.  Whether it is sudden or not I don't believe has entered into any scripture or prophetic commentary.  But calling it "magically" removed cheapens the idea and almost requires unnecessary denial of something that may, in the end, be true.

And I'm not so certain we cannot know or understand the nature of Forgetfulness.  We've all had personal revelation.  Imagine the reverse.  That seems pretty obvious (to me) that such would be the nature of Forgetfulness.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

I'm sure I could find more if I took more time. Maybe later....but here's one:

'We define the veil as the border between mortality and eternity; it is also a film of forgetting which covers the memories of earlier experiences. This forgetfulness will be lifted one day, and on that day we will see forever—rather than “through a glass, darkly”'  - Neal A. Maxwell

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/10/patience?lang=eng

 

I also found (more Maxwell) as applicable to the OP:

“The veil of forgetfulness of the first estate apparently will not be suddenly, automatically, and totally removed at the time of our temporal death. This veil, a condition of our entire second estate, is associated with and is part of our time of mortal trial, testing, proving, and overcoming by faith—and thus will continue in some key respects into the spirit world. …

“Thus, if not on this side of the veil, then in the spirit world to come, the gospel will be preached to all, including all transgressors, rebels, and rejectors of prophets, along with all those billions who died without a knowledge of the gospel (D&C 138)” (The Promise of Discipleship [2001], 119, 122).

[Vort]

15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I don't mean this as an insult.  But isn't that a cop out?

No. Remember the initial post:

3 hours ago, Ljones3 said:

When will we be able to remember our pre mortal life? When we die or after we are resurrected?

We can speculate on the answer, but without individual revelation (which we would not discuss) or public revelation (which has not been given), we cannot know. The question is unanswerable.

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

We can speculate on the answer, but without individual revelation (which we would not discuss) or public revelation (which has not been given), we cannot know. The question is unanswerable.

Actually we can definitively* say it is not when we die. But we don't know exactly when.

*Edit: perhaps not "definitively"...but with a fair amount of certainty, I believe.

Edited February 18, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Actually we can definitively say it is not when we die. But we don't know exactly when.

Good point. It is not at the moment of death, at least not for most. I took the question as being: Do we regain our premortal memories before or after resurrection? I assume it's after (and that assumes we "remember" everything as is commonly supposed will happen), but I don't believe the question has been answered by revelation.

[Jamie123]

Do you think perhaps that as very young children we remember pre-mortality somewhat, but that we lose the memories as we get older? I remember once reading a book by an LDS member which argued that William Wordsworth's "Intimations of Immortality" is really about that: particularly the parts "Not in complete forgetfulness, and not in utter nakedness, but trailing clouds of glory do we come" and "At length the man perceives it die away and mingle with the light of common day".

(P.S. Wordsworth and Joseph Smith were contemporaries of course, but I don't think the author was suggesting that Wordsworth was influenced by Smith - only that he intuitively felt a truth which had been revealed to Smith.)

Edited February 18, 2016 by Jamie123

[The Folk Prophet]

As much as Vort's point that -- 'we will remember is speculative' is valid, it is also speculative to state that we won't remember everything. Between the two options, however, the obvious seems that we will remember everything. It's the easy path of understanding. It's the primary answer. And there is no compelling reason, imo, to discard it as probable...even likely. In point of fact, the idea that we may never remember our pre-earth life is decidedly bothersome to me.

[Guest]

Ok.  Good points all.  Then I'll happily forge into the land of speculation.

As stated before, I believe the veil to be partly because of our mortal bodies and partly because of our separation from God.  After death, we have one obstruction removed.  But what about the other?  Those in spirit prison by definition are still separated from God.  They certainly won't have theirs removed until some time after they are released from prison.

Those who reside in paradise may not have a definitive time.  I believe that's because it is different for everyone.  Mahonri had so much faith in mortality that he "could not be kept" from having the veil removed.  Yet the blind man was healed by Jesus little-by-little.  That is a clear metaphor (to me) that some learn spiritual things line-upon-line, yet others get it in big doses at a time because that is what their spirits are capable of handling.

Then I'll go back to my earlier post.  I believe that (at the latest) it will be removed at final judgment.  This will satisfy the scripture the we "will have a bright recollection of all our guilt".  I don't know how much brighter our guilt can be than when the entire plan is laid before us in clarity and vivid memory of us having participated in the war in heaven and having accepted the conditions of our mortality and finding out how short we'd come because of our vivid memory of all our sins committed in mortality.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Guest

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Do you think perhaps that as very young children we remember pre-mortality somewhat, but that we lose the memories as we get older?

This is actually a very popular idea in many LDS circles. On a doctrinal level, I see no reason to believe it, but it is a romantic thought.

I remember a comic featuring a man looking lovingly down into a bassinet and thinking something like, "Oh pure one, so recently arrived from the premortal realms, what would you tell me if only you could speak?" Then a voice from the bassinet says, "Have you done your home teaching?"

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

(P.S. Wordsworth and Joseph Smith were contemporaries of course, but I don't think the author was suggesting that Wordsworth was influenced by Smith - only that he intuitively felt a truth which had been revealed to Smith.)

The Wordsworth ode "Intimations of Immortality" is quite popular among Mormons, or at least well-known. I wonder how many have actually read the whole ode and not just quotations of those few lines?

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is actually a very popular idea in many LDS circles. On a doctrinal level, I see no reason to believe it, but it is a romantic thought.

I remember a comic featuring a man looking lovingly down into a bassinet and thinking something like, "Oh pure one, so recently arrived from the premortal realms, what would you tell me if only you could speak?" Then a voice from the bassinet says, "Have you done your home teaching?"

The Wordsworth ode "Intimations of Immortality" is quite popular among Mormons, or at least well-known. I wonder how many have actually read the whole ode and not just quotations of those few lines?

Well, it is a very long and meaty poem.  I don't know many who would read it without making a conscious decision to do so.  It doesn't really make for casual dinner party discussions to quote such a long piece.

As for the children idea, I was thinking of the same comic.  It was in the Ensign or New Era.

My PoGP instructor (yes, the one I've mentioned before) said,"For those who believe that the veil is completely in place by birth don't truly understand the reason why babies can't talk."  I'll dispense with his wordy explanation afterward.  I think you can guess the route he went.  But years later I remember stories about the Kirtland Temple dedication where an infant threw back its blanket and joined in the Hosanna Shout.  The two thoughts then superimposed in my mind and made me personally believe that the veil is in fact placed on us gradually.

Just a few years ago I was trying to explain the LDS concept of "the Veil" and "prophetic fallibility" to an atheist friend of mine.  I told him about when you're looking through the window and see the screen there, you can look at the screen.  But depending on distance and angle and other factors, you always see some sort of blurred image on the other side.  What if you had several screens you had to look through.  How much could you really see? 

Prophets are those who probably have the first few layers of the veil gone at all times.  But they are allowed to "peek" through the other layers at different times and different circumstances.  And a few times (I was thinking of Mahonri and Moses) they have all the layers removed if only for a moment.  How much can you see in a few minutes time?  How much can you relate?  How accurate would it be when you only saw a few minutes?  This is why doctrine can change.  The prophet reports what he sees.  A later prophet may see a few layers deeper, or may have a clearer vision (Lehi - Nephi - tree of life).

[Blackmarch]

20 hours ago, Ljones3 said:

When will we be able to remember our pre mortal life? When we die or after we are resurrected?

 

IMO we will. no idea tho... I certainly hope so.
I can't think of any reason why it would be kept from us.

 

[unixknight]

I've read some compelling stories of people who seem to have had some of their memories from the pre-existence while still alive here.  I don't know what triggers that or if there's a common thread, but it is pretty cool.

[The Folk Prophet]

It's such a strange idea to me. "Here's the plan of salvation. Step 1: A spirit lobotomy. You will forget the last billion years and never remember a thing about them. Step 2...."

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It's such a strange idea to me. "Here's the plan of salvation. Step 1: A spirit lobotomy. You will forget the last billion years and never remember a thing about them. Step 2...."

It's all speculation, but this does not seem an unreasonable speculation. When we change state, perhaps we are "remade". We keep our basic decision-making faculty -- that's agency -- but lose our recollection of the past, because we have actually become a new type of being.

I am not saying this is the case. As I already wrote, it's all speculation. But I don't see this speculation as being any more far-fetched ("any further-fetched"?) than the other.

[The Folk Prophet]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

It's all speculation, but this does not seem an unreasonable speculation. When we change state, perhaps we are "remade". We keep our basic decision-making faculty -- that's agency -- but lose our recollection of the past, because we have actually become a new type of being.

I am not saying this is the case. As I already wrote, it's all speculation. But I don't see this speculation as being any more far-fetched ("any further-fetched"?) than the other.

Unreasonable from a logical perspective, perhaps. Unreasonable from a personal, emotional, self-aware being perspective...??

[Vort]

16 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Unreasonable from a logical perspective, perhaps. Unreasonable from a personal, emotional, self-aware being perspective...??

As a personal, emotional, self-aware being, I don't find it unreasonable.

[Guest]

The way I see it is that God is the source of all light and knowledge.  When we are thrust into a world far detached from God, a great deal of the light we were used having direct access to is suddenly gone.  It is only through the eye of faith that we can receive any knowledge at all.  Even atheists learn and grow through the eye of faith.  They just don't realize it.

So, that leaves us two ways to regain the knowledge we once had: 1) Get closer to God.  Or 2) Learn to exercise faith a lot more.  We usually end up doing some of both.

When I speak of atheists and faith, I am using a definition that is a bit "out there".  I believe it to be akin to what the ancients referred to as aether.  It is a substance of "something" that provides power and is a conduit of obtaining light.  While it is most easily used by spiritual / religious methods, it is also used in rather mundane methods (study).

Whether that is accurate doctrinally or not, I'm not certain.  But thinking of it in this way (for me) helps explain a lot of different uses of the word "faith" in scriptures.  And thinking of it in this way helps me learn from books as well.