How great of a sin is debt?

[Traveler]

I believe that we can make somewhat of a mistake by trying to categorize what are the greater sins.  However, without question, the greatest sin is to rebel against the laws, covenants, inspiration and will of G-d.  I would also point out that some sins are much more difficult to repent of than others.  For example it is very difficult to repent of murder – simply because it is impossible to restore a life we have taken.  Infidelity  in marriage is likewise difficult to repent of and takes more than remorse.

 

Debt is also a very serious sin that can be difficult or even impossible to repent of.  Regardless of how sorry we may be about entering into debt – we cannot and have not completed our repentance until we are out of debt and because of the nature of debt we may find ourselves as helpless in paying back a debt as we are in restoring a lost life.  This because many do not actually understand or believe what a great sin debt is.  It is kind of like a quote from my brother, “The way to discover if someone understands the principle of compound interest is simply in weather they pay it or receive it.”  In trying to educate one individual about the sin of entering into compound interest debt in order to buy a much needed sofa on sale – I demonstrated how a $600 sofa could cost them $20,000 and more.

 

In another thread someone questioned the seriousness of debt because they claim that debt is not a sin that prevents someone from holding a temple recommend.   Just because something is not specifically asked in a temple recommend does not mean that it has no bearing towards temple worthiness.   For sure if someone is not living in accordance with the covenants that they would make at the temple they are not temple worthy.  I would submit that it is impossible to covenant to live or keep the law of consecration if someone is in debt.  Rather debt is a covenant to devote one’s time and talents contrary to and in opposition to the law of consecration.

[NightSG]

17 minutes ago, Traveler said:

In trying to educate one individual about the sin of entering into compound interest debt in order to buy a much needed sofa on sale – I demonstrated how a $600 sofa could cost them $20,000 and more.  

 

I tried for years to get it through to some friends that if they'd just go buy garage sale furniture to have something to sit on, then put aside what they were paying monthly to the rent-to-own place, they could furnish the entire house with nice stuff in about a third of the time it would take to pay off the used junk they were renting.

Same thing with the giant flat screen.  They could trade up every 6-8 months.  Never mind that they were paying the rental place as much or more than it would cost to buy one at WalMart in that time.

Large part of why I look for cheap used cars I can buy for cash.  Credit is a tool that can be helpful at times, but like most effective tools, if used even slightly carelessly, it can hurt you badly.

[Guest MormonGator]

Debt is a bad idea, but it's not sinful unless you know you can't pay it back and don't care.  Having a car payment or mortgage is debt-and those are good things. 

[NightSG]

12 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Having a car payment or mortgage is debt-and those are good things. 

Not as good as having a car or house you don't owe on, though.

Honestly, it's physically painful for me to take on a debt, even if it is just using a credit card for gas, knowing I'll pay it off at the end of the month.  It's like I can actually feel the fatigue of the amount of work I'm now committed to do to earn that money I already spent.

[The Folk Prophet]

I agree with Gator on this one. Debt isn't a sin, per se. Things surrounding debt are, like attitude, obedience, etc. Except I don't agree that having a car payment is good.

[omegaseamaster75]

13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Debt is a bad idea, but it's not sinful unless you know you can't pay it back and don't care.  Having a car payment or mortgage is debt-and those are good things. 

Hard to progress in life without it to a certain extent. Home and car seem like 2 things you can't live without and the requirement to enter into debt to have these things is necessary.

 

Yeah I know someone will come on here and extoll the virtues of their cheapness and how they pay cash for everything, but sometimes debt can work for you.

[estradling75]

In the early days the Church ran on debt

[omegaseamaster75]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I agree with Gator on this one. Debt isn't a sin, per se. Things surrounding debt are, like attitude, obedience, etc. Except I don't agree that having a car payment is good.

I don't like car debt either but who pays 35-50k cash for a vehicle that's just silly. Your throwing upwards of a third or more away in depreciation. There are much, much better investments than a car. So make your cash work for you and make a car payment.

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I don't like car debt either but who pays 35-50k cash for a vehicle that's just silly. 

Not really. There is nothing wrong with having  nice things. Of course a car is a terrible investment-you are right, very little cars hold their value-but I can afford a nice car , so I'm going to buy one. Envy is also a sin. 

[omegaseamaster75]

Don't misread my post I said paying 35-50k CASH for a vehicle is silly. Why wouldn't you finance that? with the stupid low interest rates they throw at you when you buy a car that 35-50k cash could be better invested elsewhere. 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Don't misread my post I said paying 35-50k CASH for a vehicle is silly. Why wouldn't you finance that? with the stupid low interest rates they throw at you when you buy a car that 35-50k cash could be better invested elsewhere. 

 

Don't misread what I said either. Paying CASH for that, if you can afford it-is just fine if you have that cash available. If could be invested better, but what you do with your money is your business. Same with me. 

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by MormonGator

[omegaseamaster75]

21 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Don't misread what I said either. Paying CASH for that, if you can afford it-is just fine if you have that cash available. If could be invested better, but what you do with your money is your business. Same with me. 

 

Apples and oranges I guess.

I agree that if you have 35-50k cash and WANT to spend it on a car who cares.  I don't have an issue with that. 

[Guest]

There are those who believe that people who don't do things how they do them are sinning. Pride is one of the main sins we are warned about. 

[Guest]

The scriptures talk about usury as a sin, not going into debt.  Usury is not just giving someone a loan, but giving them a loan at outrageous rates where it is almost impossible to pay off.  This is essentially "predatory lending practice" in today's parlance or possibly "loan sharking".  It is the lender, not the borrower that is sinning.  To extend this to say that going into debt itself is a sin (in the manner you are saying it) is tantamount to saying if you get killed then you're guilty of allowing murder.  And it is not just lending.  It is lending at outrageous rates.  But who's to judge what is "outrageous"?

General Conference address (even recent ones) address debt a lot.  It is never spoken of as a sin.  It is spoken of as a really bad idea.  Just do the math.  It is bad.  But they always mention that it is understandable to get into debt primarily for house or education.  In fact, the Church even has the continuing education fund.  Then they follow up with doing so in a manner you can still afford.  Don't buy a million dollar home unless you can actually afford it.  Don't get half a million in student loans for a $30k/yr career.  You'll never be able to pay it off.  It's all about being smart with your money.

If the Church itself went into debt and currently offers debt, the actual concept of debt at all can't itself be a sin.  It is usury that is sinful.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

28 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The scriptures talk about usury as a sin, not going into debt.  Usury is not just giving someone a loan, but giving them a loan at outrageous rates where it is almost impossible to pay off.  This is essentially "predatory lending practice" in today's parlance or possibly "loan sharking".  It is the lender, not the borrower that is sinning.  To extend this to say that going into debt itself is a sin (in the manner you are saying it) is tantamount to saying if you get killed then you're guilty of allowing murder.  And it is not just lending.  It is lending at outrageous rates.  But who's to judge what is "outrageous"?

General Conference address (even recent ones) address debt a lot.  It is never spoken of as a sin.  It is spoken of as a really bad idea.  Just do the math.  It is bad.  But they always mention that it is understandable to get into debt primarily for house or education.  In fact, the Church even has the continuing education fund.  Then they follow up with doing so in a manner you can still afford.  Don't buy a million dollar home unless you can actually afford it.  Don't get half a million in student loans for a $30k/yr career.  You'll never be able to pay it off.  It's all about being smart with your money.

If the Church itself went into debt and currently offers debt, the actual concept of debt at all can't itself be a sin.  It is usury that is sinful.

Great post. 100% agree. 

Debt gives away your freedom, to a certain extent. If I rack up 10,000 in credit card debt in travel and fine food,  I'll be paying for that for a long time if I majored in basket weaving. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by MormonGator

[Vort]

55 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The scriptures talk about usury as a sin, not going into debt.  Usury is not just giving someone a loan, but giving them a loan at outrageous rates where it is almost impossible to pay off.

The modern usage of "usury" is excessive interest. As used in the scriptures, the word simply means charging interest. The people of God were not allowed to charge interest on money loaned to Israelites, though they were allowed to charge interest on money loaned to Gentiles.

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

The modern usage of "usury" is excessive interest. As used in the scriptures, the word simply means charging interest. The people of God were not allowed to charge interest on money loaned to Israelites, though they were allowed to charge interest on money loaned to Gentiles.

That's interesting. Never knew that. No, not saying you are wrong at all. It's fascinating though, isn't it? If I run a bank, I'm not going to loan you money (even if you are the same religion) unless I have an incentive to do so. Not sure why God would demand that. Again, not saying you are wrong at all. 

[Traveler]

This has become a most interesting topic.  It seems to me that many do not know what debt is.  Let me make this as simple as possible.  Debt is owing more for something than it is worth.  Not worth to you but worth or value on the open market.  In general real estate appreciates in value so borrowing some money for real estate does not create debt.  In contrast automobiles can depreciate by just driving them off the sales lot so purchasing a car with payments in excess of 36 months will almost inevitably create debt.  Almost without exception consumer goods will depreciate faster than you can make payments and anytime compound interest is used to purchase perishables with compound loans one will quickly create debt that is impossible to pay off - especially if such debt become a way of living.

 

If one has any inclining of dedicating themselves or for that matter; anything to G-d it is a misunderstanding to think that anything uncased in debt can honestly be dedicated to G-d.  It is said in 1 Timothy 6:10 that the love of money is evil.  And I would submit that to mitigate such love of money by embracing debt is in every sense and understanding a sin against G-d and his gift of and power of agency.  I cannot think of any greater threat to the agency of man than is debt and the desire for worldly things that entices those that would so easily give themselves away for the love of money that they do not have.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Vort said:

The modern usage of "usury" is excessive interest. As used in the scriptures, the word simply means charging interest. The people of God were not allowed to charge interest on money loaned to Israelites, though they were allowed to charge interest on money loaned to Gentiles.

That's not the whole story either.  Even when "interest" wasn't charged, some fees were charged anyway.  (yes there were periods where even a fee was considered usury -- but stick a pin in that for just a bit).  Such fees were usually a percentage of the money lent.  This could be considered "simple interest" as opposed to "compound interest".  Interestingly, Muslim belief today is that compound interest is forbidden by Islam.  But simple interest is allowed.

Then it is just a matter of playing with the numbers to see who comes out on top.  A person who pays off the loan quickly will often find the compound rates better.  Someone with a small loan with a long term will find the upfront fee better.  A person who decides on a balloon payment after a medium term will find simple interest better.

There is a lot more to the issue than a short post like these.  But in the end, I don't see much of a difference unless the final numbers become "usurious".

Edited February 18, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

Even being an idiot that doesn't understand what "debt" is, I understand that for some things, the cost of a loan is built into the price, to a degree. Hopefully I have learned over the years to be smart about it; for instance, considering the debt load as part of the cost when buying a car, I have bought cars with very low miles or on closeout. The debt is still there, but the impact is minimized. I've only bought a home for cash once, otherwise I buy far under what I qualify for and negotiate the best loan terms I can.

I thank God that, though we avoid using credit cards when possible, we've had them in the case of emergencies and bad circumstances. I also thank Him for the mercy in knowing we are doing our best, and helping us get into better circumstances to pay those cards off.

I guess I'm okay with being stupid and sinful. 

[Traveler]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That's not the whole story either.  Even when "interest" wasn't charged, some fees were charged anyway.  Such fees were usually a percentage of the money lent.  This could be considered "simple interest" as opposed to "compound interest".  Interestingly, Muslim belief today is that compound interest is forbidden by Islam.  But simple interest is allowed.

Then it is just a matter of playing with the numbers to see who comes out on top.  A person who pays off the loan quickly will often find the compound rates better.  Someone with a small loan with a long term will find the upfront fee better.  A person who decides on a balloon payment after many years will find simple interest better.

There is a lot more to the issue than a short post like these.  But in the end, I don't see much of a difference unless the final numbers become "usurious".

Anciently usury included much more than what is paid in interest - for example gambling is considered usury - so was rent from the "widow and fatherless".  In essence usury is money acquired without labor or through labors considered sinful.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Great post. 100% agree. 

Debt gives away your freedom, to a certain extent. If I rack up 10,000 in credit card debt in travel and fine food,  I'll be paying for that for a long time if I majored in basket weaving. 

Or if you chose a career in Social Work.

Some careers are basically signing a vow of poverty, LOL. But if that is your passion then you learn to buy used furniture, used cars, and avoid credit cards like the plague.  

Who can avoid a mortgage though? 

Debt cannot strictly be called a sin, and as Traveler did so kindly for us, I will make this as simple as possible. The Brethren who have counseled against debt, have also said it is okay to go into debt for a house or education. If it was a sin in all circumstances they wouldn't say that.

[estradling75]

And if the definition of debt is owing more on something then it is worth...  Then anyone that got turned upside down on their mortgage when the housing bubble burst became a sinner through no fault, action or desire of their own. (Assuming a certain prudence before it burst)...   And last I checked actions of others can't make someone a sinner

 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Or if you chose a career in Social Work.

Some careers are basically signing a vow of poverty, LOL. But if that is your passion then you learn to buy used furniture, used cars, and avoid credit cards like the plague.  

 

We totally agree on that, as we usually do! lol. 

That's another reason I greatly admire social workers, people who follow a passion, etc. They sacrifice money for their love. I'll be blunt: I'm not sure I could do that. Don't get me wrong, I don't love money and I'm happily married with wonderful friends-so it's not like I sole worship money.  but I do like nice things and there is no way I could take a vow of poverty.  

Edited February 18, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

21 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

We totally agree on that, as we usually do! lol. 

That's another reason I greatly admire social workers, people who follow a passion, etc. They sacrifice money for their love. I'll be blunt: I'm not sure I could do that. Don't get me wrong, I don't love money and I'm happily married with wonderful friends-so it's not like I sole worship money.  but I do like nice things and there is no way I could take a vow of poverty.  

It could be argued that by making a lot of money you are in a better place to help others...someone with a lot of money is more free to donate money to help others or to donate time. 

I've considered that, believe me, LOL.