Pushing Back Against the Transgender Bathroom Directive

[MichaelAlaskaGuy]

I find it funny that President Obama is threatening to withhold federal funding over this issue at a time when our education system in the United States is crumbling.  This shows where the President's priorities are.

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, MichaelAlaskaGuy said:

I find it funny that President Obama is threatening to withhold federal funding over this issue at a time when our education system in the United States is crumbling.  This shows where the President's priorities are.

Pretty standard.  It's just like, when a city wants to raise taxes, police and firefighters get laid off first rather than administrative staff or park workers.  Makes the problems look more urgent than they really are.

[anatess2]

On 5/13/2016 at 6:21 PM, LeSellers said:

I'll take it no matter what the reason.

Government has no legitimate reason to own, operate, fund, or control schools in any way.

Why would anyone want to have "standardization"? People are, by definition, non-standard: it's the way God made us — each unique.

Standardization is what one does to car parts, not human beings.

Lehi

Unique, sure.  But you know why McDonald's is such a successful enterprise?  You can travel from Florida to the Philippines and when you walk in, you will ALWAYS know what you are buying.  A Big Mac in Florida tastes the exact same in Manila.

Now, why is this important?  Because, Americans - especially the Military - are mobile.  Let's use the military as the example as they are the most impacted by non-standard schools.  A soldier's family moves every 2 years.  My husband moved a lot more often than that with his father in the Navy.  He was in a new school in a different State almost every year of his K-8 education.  He had to re-do 2nd grade because he spent 1st grade in a school whose standards did not meet 3rd grade entry requirements for the next State he lived in.

This is the problem with non-standard schools.  Kids living in a mobile household have a high drop-out rate.

 

[anatess2]

On 5/13/2016 at 6:39 PM, Godless said:

Normally I'd agree with you, but this is Texas we're talking about...

??

[tesuji]

On 5/13/2016 at 4:49 PM, LiterateParakeet said:

I just read an article by Bruce C. Hafen (I can provide a link later)...he talked about how the decline of marriage/family started in the 1960's when the laws on divorce began to change. Before that a divorce was very hard to get because it was understood that marriage and family were a fundamental unit of society and therefore disintegrating your marriage hurt the community as a whole. 

In this situation the needs of the community would appear to be the higher law. Choosing to place the needs of individuals first began the slippery slope of where we find ourselves now.

This is a curious idea to me, one that frankly I'm still trying to understand myself. It is different than I have always understood it.

I agree with you. This is a great example - did the decline in marriage come because of bad laws, or were people becoming more bad and then they changed the lawS?

I think good laws can reinforce becoming good people. Of course in our own church we have many laws/commandments.

But I think you of course you have to find the balance. We believe in free moral agency, but we also believe in good laws and good government. We believe in democracy but we also have safeguards in case voters are stupid. 

In the end, most any form of government will work if the people are righteous. And most any form will fail if people are wicked enough.

Edited May 16, 2016 by tesuji

[LeSellers]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Unique, sure.  But you know why McDonald's is such a successful enterprise?  You can travel from Florida to the Philippines and when you walk in, you will ALWAYS know what you are buying.  A Big Mac in Florida tastes the exact same in Manila.

People are not hamburgers.

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

This is the problem with non-standard schools.  Kids living in a mobile household have a high drop-out rate.

And this is circular reasoning: because schools treat all the inmates the same, all schools should be the same so the final product will be the same in Florida as in Manila.

Teachers around this country, at least, whine that they have to "take all comers". But it is precisely the fact that the inputs are non-standard that their treatment must also be unique for each child. But the government-run, tax-funded welfare schools do not (and cannot) treat individual children according to their differences: they treat all children as if they were identical because they want standardized outputs.

But, in the examples you used of differing schools for military members (and please recall that I am retired military, and have had our children in USmerican schools in two countries and five states and have taught in fourteen different schools myself, in five school districts — Eowyn will be most happy to remind you that I was "merely" a substitute teacher) it is precisely because the government runs those schools that they are all so different. If the parents were in charge of their children's education, it would be far less traumatic, educationally, to change schools because mom'n'dad would have many options in each place, and they could match, not only the child's needs, talents, and interests, but his past education with the available alternatives. and it would be even easier to have the continuity you want if they provided the education for their children themselves with
Family-Centered Education.

Government touches nothing without destroying it.

Lehi

[anatess2]

47 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

People are not hamburgers.

And this is circular reasoning: because schools treat all the inmates the same, all schools should be the same so the final product will be the same in Florida as in Manila.

Teachers around this country, at least, whine that they have to "take all comers". But it is precisely the fact that the inputs are non-standard that their treatment must also be unique for each child. But the government-run, tax-funded welfare schools do not (and cannot) treat individual children according to their differences: they treat all children as if they were identical because they want standardized outputs.

But, in the examples you used of differing schools for military members (and please recall that I am retired military, and have had our children in USmerican schools in two countries and five states and have taught in fourteen different schools myself, in five school districts — Eowyn will be most happy to remind you that I was "merely" a substitute teacher) it is precisely because the government runs those schools that they are all so different. If the parents were in charge of their children's education, it would be far less traumatic, educationally, to change schools because mom'n'dad would have many options in each place, and they could match, not only the child's needs, talents, and interests, but his past education with the available alternatives. and it would be even easier to have the continuity you want if they provided the education for their children themselves with
Family-Centered Education.

Government touches nothing without destroying it.

Lehi

 

This is a complete misunderstanding of "standardization".  Standardization means if a student receives an A in Algebra in California, it means that that kid should qualify to start Geometry in Vermont.  It has NOTHING  at all to do with HOW the kid got that A in Algebra or HOW he was taught or WHAT he had to do to receive that A.  All that is up to each student, how he learns, and his relationship with his teacher or school on how he figures out how to solve for X.  But... for him to pass Algebra, he has to learn how to solve for X - doesn't matter how he solves it, he has to be able to solve it, regardless of whether he's in Vermont or California.

 

Edited May 16, 2016 by anatess2

[zil]

It's rare, IMO, that we see the voice of reason coming from a professional organization, but here's one regarding gender identity confusion in children.

[Blackmarch]

On 5/13/2016 at 0:13 PM, Still_Small_Voice said:

‘We Will Not Be Blackmailed’: Conservatives Slam Obama Administation After Transgender Bathroom Directive to Public Schools
May. 13, 2016

Conservatives across the country are slamming the Obama administration telling public schools to either let transgender students use the restroom of their preference or risk losing federal funding.

Speaking at the Texas Republican Convention on Friday, Lone Star State Lt. Governor Dan Patrick was one of the latest politicians to weigh in on the controversy.

“This will be the the end of public education if this prevails. People will pull their kids out. Homeschooling will explode. Private schooling will increase. School choice will pass,” Patrick told reporters in Dallas.

Read more at:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/05/13/we-will-not-be-blackmailed-conservatives-slam-obama-admin-after-transgender-bathroom-directive-to-public-schools/

 

I'd be down with more homeschooling.

[NeuroTypical]

My wife has homeschooled our daughters since day one.  Here's a full list of everything you need to successfully homeschool:

1. Desire to spend a lot of time, every single day, over and over, with your kids, with pretty much no breaks, ever.
2. Kids and spouse willing to try it, or at least endure it. 

Everything else, the knowledge, the curriculum, the teaching ability, it all comes with time, practice, and selective outsourcing.  

[NightSG]

21 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

1. Desire to spend a lot of time, every single day, over and over, with your kids, with pretty much no breaks, ever.

You don't send them to public schools for a week each year and call it Spring Break?

[NeuroTypical]

Heh.  Well, to be sure, they have plenty of non-mom stuff to do.  Homeschool co-ops, summer school, play dates, we did a 1 day/week thing with the school district.  Older daughter is starting a hybrid high-school thing 4 days a week.  And homeschooling Mommies look out for each other too.  

But yeah, other than YW camp and like one other thing, I don't think my wife has spent a full day away from our kids in their entire lives, and that includes when she spent a week in the hospital for surgery.  Her choice, and she wouldn't have it any other way. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[Backroads]

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 11:29 AM, LeSellers said:

 

Teachers around this country, at least, whine that they have to "take all comers". But it is precisely the fact that the inputs are non-standard that their treatment must also be unique for each child. But the government-run, tax-funded welfare schools do not (and cannot) treat individual children according to their differences: they treat all children as if they were identical because they want standardized outputs.

 

You'll see different teachers with different views on "taking all comers". Ideally, it would be a beautiful system to have a school capable of teaching all levels and variations of students. Sadly, the majority of institutions that try either quickly lose the goal or burn out students and staff alike within a year or two. Most teachers will freely admit all too often education is teaching to the lowest common denominator. With all due respect for students in the special education programs, schools are only legally required to hit that level.

I hear many people complain about public charters that find one way or another to get rid of all the problem kids, stating that's unfair. And yet, by and large, it's the extremely difficult kids that can make or break a school.

I'm not quite ready for a complete abolishment of the public school system (it provides my income!) but I'm a big big big believer in school choice. The only thing there that gives me pause is that I have two students who are currently homeless who would wind up in the worst of public school simply due to the fact they are homeless. Can't afford another school if you can't afford a home.

[LeSellers]

On 5/16/2016 at 0:10 PM, anatess2 said:

On 5/16/2016 at 11:29 AM, LeSellers said:

People are not hamburgers.

And this is circular reasoning: because schools treat all the inmates the same, all schools should be the same so the final product will be the same in Florida as in Manila.

Teachers around this country, at least, whine that they have to "take all comers". But it is precisely the fact that the inputs are non-standard that their treatment must also be unique for each child. But the government-run, tax-funded welfare schools do not (and cannot) treat individual children according to their differences: they treat all children as if they were identical because they want standardized outputs.

But, in the examples you used of differing schools for military members (and please recall that I am retired military, and have had our children in USmerican schools in two countries and five states and have taught in fourteen different schools myself, in five school districts — Eowyn will be most happy to remind you that I was "merely" a substitute teacher) it is precisely because the government runs those schools that they are all so different. If the parents were in charge of their children's education, it would be far less traumatic, educationally, to change schools because mom'n'dad would have many options in each place, and they could match, not only the child's needs, talents, and interests, but his past education with the available alternatives. and it would be even easier to have the continuity you want if they provided the education for their children themselves with Family-Centered Education.

Government touches nothing without destroying it.

This is a complete misunderstanding of "standardization".  Standardization means if a student receives an A in Algebra in California, it means that that kid should qualify to start Geometry in Vermont.  It has NOTHING  at all to do with HOW the kid got that A in Algebra or HOW he was taught or WHAT he had to do to receive that A.  All that is up to each student, how he learns, and his relationship with his teacher or school on how he figures out how to solve for X.  But... for him to pass Algebra, he has to learn how to solve for X - doesn't matter how he solves it, he has to be able to solve it, regardless of whether he's in Vermont or California.

If you want an "A" in Algebra to mean the same thing in Vermont and California, but don't want federal "standards", how's that work? So-called "professional educators" can't even assure that two "As" are equivalent in the same school.

The only ones who can assure those "As" are the same would be an outside agency who administer finals. Someone like UL or Good Housekeeping or Consumers' Union. We do not need (and many of us do not want) government involved in education in any way, shape or form. We don't need it to define who can be a teacher, what that person must teach, when he should teach it, and to whom. We do not need it to take money from one person and pay for the indoctrination of another person's children. We don't need it to force parents to educate their children. We do not need government education. It's counter-productive and it weakens the Family (which was one of Horace Mann's goals in the first place).

Lehi

 

Edited May 17, 2016 by LeSellers

[anatess2]

21 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

If you want an "A" in Algebra to mean the same thing in Vermont and California, but don't want federal "standards", how's that work? So-called "professional educators" can't even assure that two "As" are equivalent in the same school.

The only ones who can assure those "As" are the same would be an outside agency who administer finals. Someone like UL or Good Housekeeping or Consumers' Union. We do not need (and many of us do not want) government involved in education in any way, shape or form. We don't need it to define who can be a teacher, what that person must teach, when he should teach it, and to whom. We do not need it to take money from one person and pay for the indoctrination of another person's children. We don't need it to force parents to educate their children. We do not need government education. It's counter-productive and it weakens the Family (which was one of Horace Mann's goals in the first place).

Lehi

 

 

You don't need government to standardize.  Education is standardized in the Philippines and government can't see beyond their noses to do anything with education.  The way the Philippines is standardized is through commercial competition.  The highest standard is the Catholic Schools.  You go to a Catholic School anywhere and graduating from 6th grade guarantees you qualify for 7th in any other Catholic School.  Because Catholic Schools are so popular, all other schools advertise as "meeting the standards of Catholic School".  No tests needed.  If you transfer schools, you take your transcripts and send it to the new school.  If you passed 6th grade, you get admitted to 7th... how do you know that your 6th grade is at the same standard as the new school?  Because, if it isn't, that becomes news and your old school will lose student enrollment or parents are going to storm the school and demand a better education.  Who decides whether you passed 6th grade?  Your teachers.  Every single teacher of every single subject determines your grade.  Each teacher has a different way to measure core competencies.  As a student, it is your job to know what that specific teacher requires to pass that class.  If that teacher sucks, students will demand the teacher gets fired.

Are there bad schools in the Philippines?  You betcha.  But everybody knows they're bad schools.  You don't have to enroll there.  Those who enroll there don't care that it is bad.  They somehow figure out how to bridge the gap.

No, this will not work in the American Public Education System.  The main reason is because.... you have not much choice on which school you get to attend.

If a school in the Philippines does idiot rules about their bathrooms... they'll lose students by next week.

Edited May 17, 2016 by anatess2

[LeSellers]

35 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

You don't need government to standardize.

Yes, I said that:

55 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Someone like UL or Good Housekeeping or Consumers' Union.

35 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Education is standardized in the Philippines and government can't see beyond their noses to do anything with education.  The way the Philippines is standardized is through commercial competition. 

I've said that, too. And it's even worse in USmerica.

35 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

If you passed 6th grade, you get admitted to 7th... how do you know that your 6th grade is at the same standard as the new school?  Because, if it isn't, that becomes news and your old school will lose student enrollment or parents are going to storm the school and demand a better education.  Who decides whether you passed 6th grade?  Your teachers.  Every single teacher of every single subject determines your grade.  Each teacher has a different way to measure core competencies.  As a student, it is your job to know what that specific teacher requires to pass that class.  If that teacher sucks, students will demand the teacher gets fired.

That's one way (and the one I'd prefer here, too) to do it. But we have been conditioned to have a "seal of approval", hence the GH, UL, CU option in the above.

35 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

No, this will not work in the American Public Education System.  The main reason is because.... you have not much choice on which school you get to attend.

Which is only because of government. Get government out of education, and this problem goes away, this one and all of the others, too.

35 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

If a school in the Philippines does idiot rules about their bathrooms... they'll lose students by next week.

And here, in USmerica, the parents will scream'n'hollar and send their precious children back to the same cesspools next September.

Lehi

Edited May 18, 2016 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

4 hours ago, Backroads said:

You'll see different teachers with different views on "taking all comers". Ideally, it would be a beautiful system to have a school capable of teaching all levels and variations of students. Sadly, the majority of institutions that try either quickly lose the goal or burn out students and staff alike within a year or two. Most teachers will freely admit all too often education is teaching to the lowest common denominator. With all due respect for students in the special education programs, schools are only legally required to hit that level.

And why is this a problem? Because government is inherently incapable of providing education. It can't because it operates under the concept of bureaucracy: one size fits all.

A private system, with no government involvement (except to enforce contracts), could meet the needs of all students at prices parents could afford (especially without the horrific tax rates we're forced to pay now). The few parents who could not afford it would use scholarships (which already exist) and loans and help from family.

Lehi

Edited May 18, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Just discovered this video that captures precisely how I feel about the situation.  Sharing it here so you can share if you like....
 

 

[anatess2]

I can't remember anymore which thread it was where I called the NC bathroom law stupid.  I'm fairly certain I was talking to @Just_A_Guy at the time.

I actually spent the time to read the NC bathroom law and learned a few things.  Now, I still think it's ridiculous for government to legislate the use of bathrooms... but anywho...

Here's what I found out:

1.)  The NC bathroom law does not apply to privately owned bathrooms, so it only affects public (i.e. government-run) facilities.

2.)  It has some broad-brush exemptions for people needing assistance - this can be used to exempt children and special needs and elderly, etc.

3.)  NC bathroom law segregates multi-occupancy bathrooms by biological sex.

4.)  The law defines biological sex as the gender on your birth certificate.

Now, this is what a whole slew of people do not realize about NC:

5.)  In NC, you can change the gender on your birth certificate.  Yep.  This is a law enacted long time ago that allows for people who have gone through gender reassignment surgery to change the gender on their birth certificate.  Of course, one would think that if they've spent all that money to change their private parts it wouldn't be such a burden to send in the completed form with the $30-or-so filing fee to change their birth certificate as well.

Now, of course, Caitlyn Jenner who didn't go through the surgery still has to use the boy's room.  Well, that kinda makes sense... you got boy parts, you go use the high-occupancy urinal instead of holding up the line in the women's stalls.  This is not Gender Identity discrimination, this is practical facility application.

But yeah, I still don't like these legislations because it bothers me that Caitlyn Jenner will have to go to jail if caught using the women's bathrooms and I could also end up in jail if I go rush into the empty boys' room with my husband/kids on guard when the women's room is being cleaned or has a mile-long line, etc. etc... It's just a recipe for disaster with the zero tolerance policy types.

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, anatess2 said:

You don't need government to standardize.  Education is standardized in the Philippines and government can't see beyond their noses to do anything with education.  The way the Philippines is standardized is through commercial competition.  

Are there bad schools in the Philippines?  You betcha.  But everybody knows they're bad schools.  You don't have to enroll there.  Those who enroll there don't care that it is bad.  They somehow figure out how to bridge the gap.

No, this will not work in the American Public Education System.  The main reason is because.... you have not much choice on which school you get to attend.

Anatess,

You just destroyed your own argument.

[anatess2]

36 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Anatess,

You just destroyed your own argument.

Uhmm... I don't know how I destroyed the argument when this is the gist of my entire point:

On 5/13/2016 at 2:24 PM, anatess2 said:

This is a perfect example of Federal Blackmail.

FIGHT TO GET SCHOOLS BACK TO LOCAL CONTROL!

Standardization can be achieved through State competition and not Federal mandate.

States can implement school choice.  Florida has a head start on it.

[LeSellers]

13 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

On 5/13/2016 at 0:24 PM, anatess2 said:

This is a perfect example of Federal Blackmail.

FIGHT TO GET SCHOOLS BACK TO LOCAL CONTROL!

Standardization can be achieved through State competition and not Federal mandate.

States can implement school choice.  Florida has a head start on it.

School choice still requires that the children go to school when bureaucrats demand, study what bureaucrats require, only learn from teachers approved by bureaucrats, meet the standards bureaucrats establish.

The answer is simple: get government (politicians and bureaucrats) out of education. If Filipinos can afford to buy education for their children, USmericans certainly can.

Lehi

[anatess2]

36 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

School choice still requires that the children go to school when bureaucrats demand, study what bureaucrats require, only learn from teachers approved by bureaucrats, meet the standards bureaucrats establish.

The answer is simple: get government (politicians and bureaucrats) out of education. If Filipinos can afford to buy education for their children, USmericans certainly can.

Lehi

The States can decide that for themselves.  The voucher system, for one, doesn't demand anything beyond which schools are accredited for voucher.

But, even Filipinos have public schools.  It's well and good to say government should get out of education until you meet the kid who goes to school to escape/rise above the horrors at home.  Philippine public schools are there to catch these hopeless children (and hopeless parents).

Tom HIddleston (Loki in the Avengers movie) just added his voice to the #EmergencyLessons campaign that raises awareness for the role of education worldwide especially in war-torn countries.  It's not all about the 3 R's...

 

Edited May 18, 2016 by anatess2

[Guest]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Uhmm... I don't know how I destroyed the argument when this is the gist of my entire point:

Then I think you misunderstand the nature of the disagreement that Lehi and I have with your position.

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Then I think you misunderstand the nature of the disagreement that Lehi and I have with your position.

Illuminate my foggy brain, por favor.

 

This is the disagreement as I see it:

1.)  I said - Schools need to be local.  I also said, standardization is necessary but it doesn't need to be mandated as it can be achieved through competition.

2.)  Lehi said - standardization is harmful to students.

3.)  I disagreed.

4.)  You said something about my disagreement destroying itself... something I still don't quite understand how.

 

So, what did I miss?

Edited May 18, 2016 by anatess2