Why is marriage so important if Jesus didn't get married

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Nobody has ever said the Lord CAN'T do X.  Rather, it is always, the Lord WON'T do X.  Different connotations.

Were the Israelites ripe?  Yes.  Their bondage needed to end at that specific point in time that they may bring about the works of the Lord.  Of course, Moses did not think he was ready or the people were ready and all that stuff.  He was what we would call an insecure person at first.  God believed otherwise.

And so on and so forth...

 

The discussion is, fairly, about what the Lord WILL do, rather than CAN do. So take my post and replace the mistaken word "can't" with "won't" throughout. And maybe replace the word "ability" with "desire" or something.

The point still stands. There are plenty of scriptural examples of the Lord giving revelation to people who neither asked, nor obeyed.

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The discussion is, fairly, about what the Lord WILL do, rather than CAN do. So take my post and replace the mistaken word "can't" with "won't" throughout. And maybe replace the word "ability" with "desire" or something.

The point still stands. There are plenty of scriptural examples of the Lord giving revelation to people who neither asked, nor obeyed.

My point exactly.

[anatess2]

Duplicate.

 

Paaaaaam!  Dupe check!

Edited June 15, 2016 by anatess2

[Traveler]

22 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

This doesn't seem accurate to me. It depends on who you mean by "people" I suppose, but were the Israelites ready to hear the revelations giving by Moses before being given the lesser law and made to wander in the desert for 40 years. Were the Ammonihahites ready to hear the revelations declared by and Angel to Alma and Amulek? Etc?

I don't know why we feel the need to put conditions on the Lord's ability to communicate to His children. If He wants us to know something, we'll know it. Period.

Obviously He uses patterns and conditions sometimes -- these are likely for our learning and humility, etc... But to presume that therefore the Lord can't do otherwise strikes me as mistaken.

 

I think you are missing something.  To begin, I will call it Agency.  G-d does not force anyone to hear, recieve or participate in revelation.  The analogy often cited by “the Brethren” is that of a radio.  G-d broadcasts revelation but each individual must have their radio tuned to receive the broadcast.   I have a particular affinity for this symbolism because I have observed that many receive “fuzzy” revelation with “static” (partial) because they are only partially in tune (in reality we all struggle from time to time to hear all that G-d broadcasts) – then thinking they have the complete picture immediately and emphatically denounce (sometimes ending conversation or attempting to do so) with those that disagree in any degree with them.

It appears to me that Moroni chapter 10 adds an additional dimension to this broadcast analogy with the idea that to each is given spiritual gifts – which to me seems to say that the only way to complete our receiving of divinely broadcast revelation is to listen carefully to what others, with differing spiritual gifts bring to a conversation – especially that which any single individual by themselves may have missed.  In this, it is not just a matter of an individual coming to some understanding by themselves and their own efforts but all are enriched and lifted through relationships of love, compassion, trust and respect – not just with G-d but with each other.  In other words not only do our spiritual radios need to be in tune with G-d (love of G-d – the first commandment) but also with our fellow man (the second commandment – which is like the first) before our reception is or can be completed.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

6 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 

 

Edited June 15, 2016 by Traveler

[LeSellers]

6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

15 hours ago, LeSellers said:

I do not recall a single revelation God gave to Joseph of any other prophet that was not part of the answer to a query on the part of the prophet. Oft-times, fer shure, the answer went well beyond the limits of the question, but that does not negate this point.

For sure, revelation comes when people are ready to hear it.  I just don't think that the prophet has to inquire for the revelation to be given.  I may be wrong on this but my take on it is that the conditions must be ripe for the revelation and then the revelation is given to the prophets.  Yes, a sign of the ripening may come in the form of inquiry, I just don't think it has to be in the form of an inquiry by the prophet.

I meant, specifically, modern prophets. Sorry I was not clear on this.

Lehi

[Blackmarch]

On June 6, 2016 at 3:23 PM, TilKingdomCome said:

Hey So this is a question I posed to the missionaries in my most recent lesson, and they said I should just ask online to look for an answer.

The Church places a lot of importance on marriage, and having kids. It's considered a part of the Plan of Salvation.

But the Church also says that it's important to live like Christ and that, by being baptised, you agree to follow Christ's example.

Yet Christ never got married. If marriage is so important, and if we're meant to live like Christ, why didn't He get married or have kids? Is that a sign that marriage/family isn't as important as the Church says it is?

Our gospels don't tell us if God the Father is married either, yet we are commanded to be such. They do not mention much of the sacred things that are inside or are beyond the covenants we are commanded to take. The prophets only share what they are told to share or feel inspred to share, the rest is kept hidden from the world. I would argue that the greater in significance, sacredness, of a thing, the less likely it is to be placed for the world to see.

JS also said once to the effect is that often god does not share his mysteries because we like to share things ( that and teaching the saints was like trying to crack a nut with nothing but a pancake).

[LeSellers]

9 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

Our gospels don't tell us if God the Father is married

Yet the Old Testament has unnumbered references to our Mother in Heaven. Many were excised, of course, but not all, and those that remain are veiled in ambiguity. Nonetheless, they are there, and I cherish them.

Lehi

[estradling75]

33 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Yet the Old Testament has unnumbered references to our Mother in Heaven. Many were excised, of course, but not all, and those that remain are veiled in ambiguity. Nonetheless, they are there, and I cherish them.

Lehi

Then you might like this 

 

[Traveler]

On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 5:07 PM, anatess2 said:

zomarah, the Lord only reveals what He WISHES to reveal.  We can ask.  It doesn't mean He will always answer with the information we desire.  And if He wills that the time is right to reveal certain truths, He reveals such truths to His prophets whether they ask or not.  This is evident all over the scriptures old, new, and latter day.  I'm sure you understand this concept as it is the exact same concept with Prayer.

The doctrine of Eternal Marriage and Eternal Families have been revealed.  Joseph Smith didn't have to ask.  He was TOLD.  It was a critical restoration of the gospel of the fullness of times to restore the spirit of Elijah back on earth.   And it wasn't just a matter of telling.  He was commanded to act on certain things he was very very scared to do to fulfill the restoration of this very important principle.  It didn't come as one big reveal like a Fixer Upper show.  Rather, it came in steps that took years to complete.  If God wanted to reveal if Jesus has an eternal companion, this would have been the time for it.  He didn't.  Therefore, we don't have that revelation today.

 

I would respond to this because I think it is a little misleading.  I would compare G-d to a light source.  The light is an element of his attributes and always exists as he himself does.  Thus I believe G-d to be the source of truth and light.  The amount of truth and light is completely dependent on us both as individuals as well as families and communities.  I believe G-d cannot increase nor diminish this light and truth because it always exist being that he is the G-d of truth and light – what light and truth we receive is not dependent on G-d and what he wishes us to know but on us and our ability to realize it.  I am sure if it was determined by G-d that all would receive the light – but because of agency the reception of light is dependent on us and our circumstance (or sphere).  One example of this in scripture is the brother of Jared that beheld the finger of G-d – an observation that surprised the L-rd that explained to the brother of Jared that he was able to behold more because of his great faith.

Two can covenant with G-d and stand next to each other and one receive more light than the other (see Abraham 3) – and to them of greater faith - answers will be obvious that to the other it will not be understood, reconciled with scripture and revelation or even believed.  I also believe that Moroni chapter 10 also connects to this spiritual construct in talking about spiritual gifts.  That no one should discount the spiritual gifts of others on the basis that they do not have (realize) the same exact spiritual gifts and therefore have a different view. 

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

I would respond to this because I think it is a little misleading.  I would compare G-d to a light source.  The light is an element of his attributes and always exists as he himself does.  Thus I believe G-d to be the source of truth and light.  The amount of truth and light is completely dependent on us both as individuals as well as families and communities.  I believe G-d cannot increase nor diminish this light and truth because it always exist being that he is the G-d of truth and light – what light and truth we receive is not dependent on G-d and what he wishes us to know but on us and our ability to realize it.  I am sure if it was determined by G-d that all would receive the light – but because of agency the reception of light is dependent on us and our circumstance (or sphere).  One example of this in scripture is the brother of Jared that beheld the finger of G-d – an observation that surprised the L-rd that explained to the brother of Jared that he was able to behold more because of his great faith.

Two can covenant with G-d and stand next to each other and one receive more light than the other (see Abraham 3) – and to them of greater faith - answers will be obvious that to the other it will not be understood, reconciled with scripture and revelation or even believed.  I also believe that Moroni chapter 10 also connects to this spiritual construct in talking about spiritual gifts.  That no one should discount the spiritual gifts of others on the basis that they do not have (realize) the same exact spiritual gifts and therefore have a different view. 

 

The Traveler

This applies to personal revelation, yes.  We were talking strictly about PROPHETIC revelation.  Revelations given to the prophets of the Church.

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

This applies to personal revelation, yes.  We were talking strictly about PROPHETIC revelation.  Revelations given to the prophets of the Church.

 

There is a difference?  

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

On 6/18/2016 at 8:37 PM, Traveler said:

 

There is a difference?  

 

The Traveler

Yes. It's called authority.

[Traveler]

On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 8:46 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

Yes. It's called authority.

I thought all revelation comes by the same authority?  The very authority of the G-dhead? and through the Holy Ghost?

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 9:37 PM, Blackmarch said:

Our gospels don't tell us if God the Father is married either, yet we are commanded to be such. They do not mention much of the sacred things that are inside or are beyond the covenants we are commanded to take. The prophets only share what they are told to share or feel inspred to share, the rest is kept hidden from the world. I would argue that the greater in significance, sacredness, of a thing, the less likely it is to be placed for the world to see.

JS also said once to the effect is that often god does not share his mysteries because we like to share things ( that and teaching the saints was like trying to crack a nut with nothing but a pancake).

I like your post and idea - G-d has never commanded that we breath nor is there revelation telling us to do so -  And so I wonder how it is that some remain alive for more than just a few minutes??????

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I thought all revelation comes by the same authority?  The very authority of the G-dhead? and through the Holy Ghost?

 

The Traveler

For being a supposed "scientist", sometimes you're thinking isn't very scientific.

Clearly 'authority' related to revelation refers to the receiver's, not to the giver's.

[Traveler]

11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

For being a supposed "scientist", sometimes you're thinking isn't very scientific.

Clearly 'authority' related to revelation refers to the receiver's, not to the giver's.

The question at hand is strictly about revelation.  I understand that those with authority receive revelation as well as those without keys – or without even priesthood (sisters – the one posting being an example).  There are many spiritual gifts (See Moroni chapter 10) - I specifically asked for what the difference is concerning the essence of such revelation because I do not believe that there is or even ought to be any difference what-so-ever.  If you believe there is a difference – I would really like to have a conversation about specifics as to not only why you believe there must be a difference but what exactly are the differences in actuality there are as in examples of specific revelations that you can provide. 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

For being a supposed "scientist", sometimes you're thinking isn't very scientific.

Clearly 'authority' related to revelation refers to the receiver's, not to the giver's.

The question at hand is strictly about revelation.  I understand that those with authority receive revelation as well as those without keys – or without even priesthood (sisters – the one posting being an example).  There are many spiritual gifts (See Moroni chapter 10) - I specifically asked for what the difference is concerning the essence of such revelation because I do not believe that there is or even ought to be any difference what-so-ever.  If you believe there is a difference – I would really like to have a conversation about specifics as to not only why you believe there must be a difference but what exactly are the differences in actuality there are as in examples of specific revelations that you can provide. 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

The question at hand is strictly about revelation.  I understand that those with authority receive revelation as well as those without keys – or without even priesthood (sisters – the one posting being an example).  There are many spiritual gifts (See Moroni chapter 10) - I specifically asked for what the difference is concerning the essence of such revelation because I do not believe that there is or even ought to be any difference what-so-ever.  If you believe there is a difference – I would really like to have a conversation about specifics as to not only why you believe there must be a difference but what exactly are the differences in actuality there are as in examples of specific revelations that you can provide. 

The Traveler

Revelation is not what you seem to claim it to be. The Lord withholds from some what He does not from others per His will, not per ours. We only receive as fast as we are able to bear in accordance with that which the Lord chooses to reveal. The reason there is a difference is because the Lord has proclaimed, repeatedly, that He reveals things to those with the authority to receive such (or the mantle, or the stewardship, or however you want to call it) that He does not reveal to others. The simplest example would be the Bishop who receives revelation that my neighbor isn't worthy of such-n-such due to such-n-such, a revelation that I would NEVER receive, no matter how worthy and enlightened. It is not knowledge that is just floating out there in the ethosphere waiting to be absorbed by whoever is in tune. And there are a great deal of revelations that come through specific channels and specific channels only. That is the difference.

Edited June 21, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

The question at hand is strictly about revelation.  I understand that those with authority receive revelation as well as those without keys – or without even priesthood (sisters – the one posting being an example).  There are many spiritual gifts (See Moroni chapter 10) - I specifically asked for what the difference is concerning the essence of such revelation because I do not believe that there is or even ought to be any difference what-so-ever.  If you believe there is a difference – I would really like to have a conversation about specifics as to not only why you believe there must be a difference but what exactly are the differences in actuality there are as in examples of specific revelations that you can provide. 

The Traveler

Here's a specific.

God chose to reveal the restored gospel to Joseph Smith rather than any of the Popes of the day.  It is not that the Pope is not doing everything to live righteously according to his knowledge or that he is not seeking for truth or not praying enough or not willing to follow God.  He didn't reveal it to any of the Catholic Bishops either or any of the priests in the monastery or even the pastors of the other Churches - all of which are seeking and seeking and trying their best to live according to the truth they know.  No.  God chose Joseph Smith.  A boy of 12.  Nothing much special about him except he loves studying scripture, likes looking for treasures, and love languages.

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Nothing much special about him except he loves studying scripture, likes looking for treasures, and love languages.

That and he was foreordained and foretold.

Lehi

[Traveler]

Okay I understand - we must understand that Moroni really says "The truth of some things to some people" even though the words are , "The truth of all things".  But now I am confused - do I change my scriptures because of what some posters on the internet say or because the prophet - with authority has said to do so?    Hmmmmmm - should I seek and ask understanding from G-d and expect an answer from the Holy Ghost in order to understand or just accept what is posted because it is done with authority?

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

I have no doubt that "all" things will be revealed to all who are worthy...

...at some point.

[estradling75]

I kinda agree with both sides but I think we are missing the point that makes is all work.

The Lord can reveal anything to anyone at anytime he feels like it...  The kicker to this is we are not allowed to share this revelation unless the Lord specifically tells us to...  There are countless instances in the scriptures were even prophets of God are commanded to keep their mouth shut about what the Lord has revealed to them.  This applies even more so when we have no authority over the subject in question.

Let take a part of a recent conference talk as an example.  One of the apostle told a story of a young man that received (or claimed to receive) a revelation about whom he should marry.  Now clearly such a revelation is within the bounds of his personal stewardship... and the church highly encourages seeking such confirmation.  But this wasn't an example of what the young man did right... this is an example of what the young man did wrong.  And what he did wrong was to "share" that revelation to someone he did not have stewardship or permission to share it with.  In this case the young lady in question.  The young lady responded properly with "When the Lord tells me that,.. then we will talk"

And I think this demonstrates the missing element.  The Lord can reveal anything to anyone, but such revelation is for personal pondering and enlightenment only.  The moment we take a "personal" revelation and make it "public" (without the express permission from God) we have broken the trust and faith that the Lord extended to us and violated the order of Heaven and the Kingdom of God on the earth.

[The Folk Prophet]

6 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I kinda agree with both sides but I think we are missing the point that makes is all work.

The Lord can reveal anything to anyone at anytime he feels like it...  The kicker to this is we are not allowed to share this revelation unless the Lord specifically tells us to...  There are countless instances in the scriptures were even prophets of God are commanded to keep their mouth shut about what the Lord has revealed to them.  This applies even more so when we have no authority over the subject in question.

Let take a part of a recent conference talk as an example.  One of the apostle told a story of a young man that received (or claimed to receive) a revelation about whom he should marry.  Now clearly such a revelation is within the bounds of his personal stewardship... and the church highly encourages seeking such confirmation.  But this wasn't an example of what the young man did right... this is an example of what the young man did wrong.  And what he did wrong was to "share" that revelation to someone he did not have stewardship or permission to share it with.  In this case the young lady in question.  The young lady responded properly with "When the Lord tells me that,.. then we will talk"

And I think this demonstrates the missing element.  The Lord can reveal anything to anyone, but such revelation is for personal pondering and enlightenment only.  The moment we take a "personal" revelation and make it "public" (without the express permission from God) we have broken the trust and faith that the Lord extended to us and violated the order of Heaven and the Kingdom of God on the earth.

I agree that He could. I think it, generally, highly doubtful that He will (specifically concerning things outside their stewardship), and think the idea that some have that He does (even asking people to keep it quiet) is a highly dangerous idea.

I expect there are plenty who have had dreams, thoughts, feelings, etc., that they believe to be revelation that such-n-such church policy, position, or doctrine is wrong and that they have the higher knowledge and the church will, at some point, get in line with their higher knowledge, and what they're really doing is walking around deceiving themselves right into eventual full-on apostasy.

The Lord just doesn't work that way. If someone has had a revelation that gays will someday be able to marry in the temple or the like they are just wrong.

It is one of the means whereby we can determine false revelation from true. Is it in line with the prophets. When the institute student in my parent's mission as institute teachers raised her hand and testified that her brother received a revelation that he was supposed to live in a gay marriage and the church was wrong on the matter there's a problem. The Lord does not work that way.