Why is marriage so important if Jesus didn't get married

[Traveler]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

For justice to prevail there is certainly truth that must be known. Certainly all will know of their guilt...all that will be shouted from the rooftops...and certainly all will know Jesus is the Christ and what the Atonement meant and did for us. And certainly any other applicable knowledge related to justice will be known. But I'm not sure that implies that all things will be known by the wicked. In point of fact, I think it is quite safe to say that some things must be kept from the wicked. The glory of God is intelligence. Hence...only those who inherit all that God has will receive such glory and such intelligence.

Perhaps if you would indicate by example or reference to scripture any truth that you know that G-d does not want the wicked to know we could understand why you have this stand.  There may be something - but I am having a problem understanding where and why you are so sure about such a thing.

 

The Traveler

[rpframe]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

For justice to prevail there is certainly truth that must be known. Certainly all will know of their guilt...all that will be shouted from the rooftops...and certainly all will know Jesus is the Christ and what the Atonement meant and did for us. And certainly any other applicable knowledge related to justice will be known. But I'm not sure that implies that all things will be known by the wicked. In point of fact, I think it is quite safe to say that some things must be kept from the wicked. The glory of God is intelligence. Hence...only those who inherit all that God has will receive such glory and such intelligence.

Maybe I should clarify, I think we mean "all" in the sense of "everything pertaining to life on earth and salvation". Similarly to how Satan was fully informed about the plan to come to earth and get a body, but rejected it anyway.

Besides I'm pretty sure "How to make your own universe" is probably a it beyond the skill and mental capacity of imperfect beings.

[Traveler]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

For justice to prevail there is certainly truth that must be known. Certainly all will know of their guilt...all that will be shouted from the rooftops...and certainly all will know Jesus is the Christ and what the Atonement meant and did for us. And certainly any other applicable knowledge related to justice will be known. But I'm not sure that implies that all things will be known by the wicked. In point of fact, I think it is quite safe to say that some things must be kept from the wicked. The glory of God is intelligence. Hence...only those who inherit all that God has will receive such glory and such intelligence.

Perhaps if you would indicate by example or reference to scripture any truth that you know that G-d does not want the wicked to know we could understand why you have this stand.  There may be something - but I am having a problem understanding where and why you are so sure about such a thing.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

Some scriptural additions to the thought:

2 Nephi 11:11 reads:
And the day cometh that the words of the book which were sealed shall be read upon the house tops; and they shall be read by the power of Christ; and all things shall be revealed unto the children of men which ever have been among the children of men, and which ever will be even unto the end of the earth.

As @rpframe pointed out...all things is clarified here to mean related to this earth and the children of men.

But Alma 12:11, as relates to "all" things strikes me as fairly plain:

And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Perhaps if you would indicate by example or reference to scripture any truth that you know that G-d does not want the wicked to know we could understand why you have this stand.  There may be something - but I am having a problem understanding where and why you are so sure about such a thing.

 

The Traveler

What. The glory of God is intelligence isn't enough scripture for you?

[rpframe]

ANYway... pertaining to the main topic of the thread... which I will admit that I have not read all of... I think that one cannot say with certainty that Jesus was not married based on the fact that it is not mentioned in the bible, but I also think that one cannot say with certainty that Jesus had to be married either. Its all just conjecture right now.

All that really matters is that WE, should be married.

But conjecture is fun.. so proceed

[rpframe]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

I'm not sure that you can apply this directly to the afterlife. Not saying that it doesn't apply.. just saying that its unclear. I personally apply this primarily mortal life only. Meaning that part of the plan is that we can make mistakes in ignorance here on earth.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, rpframe said:

I'm not sure that you can apply this directly to the afterlife. Not saying that it doesn't apply.. just saying that its unclear. I personally apply this primarily mortal life only. Meaning that part of the plan is that we can make mistakes in ignorance here on earth.

Perhaps. I think when combined with "the glory of God is intelligence" that it works out as a theory. But the point of the argument is more that it is not, by any means, conclusive that the wicked will have "all" things revealed to them. Perhaps. But I think probably not.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Non sequitur. God's justice does not preclude the ignorance of the wicked. On the contrary, it assures such a state.

So your claim then is that ignorance is indistinguishable from wickedness?  I had not thought of things quite in that light.  Rather I have believe that wickedness requires knowledge as much as righteousness.  In essence the doctrine of opposition in all things and thus the Tree with the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

As I think on this – obviously there are things the wicked do not know (for example: the mind of G-d) – but it has always been my understanding and belief that it is not because G-d forced such a thing or would not allow such knowledge but because of agency, that the wicked refuse to accept or recognize it.

I will amend my statement to better represent my thoughts on this matter.  Thanks for your clarification – I think.  G-d is not ever the reason that truth is not revealed and should never to be blamed.  The only reason truth is withheld is because something in man (spiritual offspring of G-d) is “out of tune” with the spirit of truth – from which all truth – spiritual, empirical or otherwise – comes to man.  But – and this is most important – Truth is always available to those that seek it and are in tune with the spirit of truth and it is only when someone is not in “tune” that truth is not made known.

Grief - I am out of tune a lot.

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

So your claim then is that ignorance is indistinguishable from wickedness?

This is one reason it is so difficult and frustrating to try to converse with you, Traveler. You misunderstand (seemingly willfully) what is said. Of course, I said no such thing as you say.

[Traveler]

12 hours ago, Vort said:

This is one reason it is so difficult and frustrating to try to converse with you, Traveler. You misunderstand (seemingly willfully) what is said. Of course, I said no such thing as you say.

I am trying to understand your posts - you do not elaborate much so I am trying to clarify what exactly you are saying with this statement “God's justice does not preclude the ignorance of the wicked. On the contrary, it assures such a state” And how it is that you vehemently disagree my concept that the fault of any individual not being connected with the truth lies entirely with that individual.  That G-d does nothing to keep truth from anyone anytime – ever.

Could you provide a scripture or some reference that inspired your statement? – That G-d’s justice is the reason the wicked are “assured” ignorant?  As I understand agency – Those that wish to see truth see the truth – those that do not like truth – will never see (understand) – by their choice – not G-d’s.  As I understand – it is G-d’s will, desire (or any other divine attribute one may wish to list here) that all receive truth – and as much truth as they are open and willing to receive.  The only filter that prevents truth is with the individual not G-d.

You – I think – have a very different point of view that I am trying to understand.  I admit that this disagreement is very difficult for me – and I apologize for any difficulties this causes you – but hopefully you will look beyond the difficulties and focus on the possible benefits should I be able to understand you thoughts concerning this.  I am not trying to make this difficult – I, with all my personal flaws, am just trying to understand with precise exactness what you are trying to say.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 0:24 PM, anatess2 said:

I'm really trying to understand what you're saying.  But it just doesn't compute.  I think it is because you are talking about something completely different than what I'm talking about.

Okay, let's keep with the restoration of the gospel.  Tell me - was Joseph Smith living a more righteous life than everybody else in the planet?  Was he the ONLY one who asked according to James 1:5?  Martin Luther and several others before and after him dedicated their whole lives to seeking the truth, why did God not choose to reveal the restored gospel to them?  So tell me, why do you think that God chose to reveal the truth of the restored gospel to Joseph Smith and not to anybody else?

I have been thinking about your post and the best way to respond.  I will try to draw upon my own experiences and what I understand from those experiences.  I will use a parable.  The parable has to do with me asking through study, prayer and whatever means I have to discover truth as I am trying to use the truth given to me through revelation to build a house.

One particular problem I am having is determining how to support the roof on my house.  In my studies I cannot find what I need specific to my plans.  So I inquire more of G-d.  But I do not seem to be getting the answer.  I am concerned to get it all right.  After some time G-d gives me in revelation that I must start at the foundation of my house not with the roof.  That I must begin and seek first to understand the foundation.  It is not that G-d is keeping the knowledge of roofs from me but that to understand I must start with the foundation.  And so we begin.  First with me becoming a student willing to learn from G-d rather than me trying to dictate to G-d the process by which I should learn.

As I learn to lay a strong foundation in truth and revelation – I learn and progress and learn through revelation the next step in how to build strong walls.  And then I learn – when I have mastered all that is needed to support the roof – what must be done to complete the design of my roof.

I see revelation not as just a problem of righteousness but as a process of learning – Starting with a foundation and then building ling upon line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.  And this is not according to my plan and what I want but according to G-d’s design.  Therefore the reason that so many others were not able to restore the covenants as was Joseph is because the must be a foundation first laid – and many of those that so righteously sought were given revelation that the foundation could be established.  In the work of restoration – Joseph was at the right place and time to complete the roof.

And now here are we – Learning and receiving revelation – built upon the foundations of the past but in this quest for truth we must learn the next step – and that next step has been well designed by our G-d for he has given many spiritual gifts that he can reveal his truth to all those that desire to receive it.  But those that will not accept the truths of the foundation that has been laid before us – will not and cannot see the revelations to move G-d’s covenant people forward and complete the work of truth.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

[anatess2]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

I have been thinking about your post and the best way to respond.  I will try to draw upon my own experiences and what I understand from those experiences.  I will use a parable.  The parable has to do with me asking through study, prayer and whatever means I have to discover truth as I am trying to use the truth given to me through revelation to build a house.

One particular problem I am having is determining how to support the roof on my house.  In my studies I cannot find what I need specific to my plans.  So I inquire more of G-d.  But I do not seem to be getting the answer.  I am concerned to get it all right.  After some time G-d gives me in revelation that I must start at the foundation of my house not with the roof.  That I must begin and seek first to understand the foundation.  It is not that G-d is keeping the knowledge of roofs from me but that to understand I must start with the foundation.  And so we begin.  First with me becoming a student willing to learn from G-d rather than me trying to dictate to G-d the process by which I should learn.

As I learn to lay a strong foundation in truth and revelation – I learn and progress and learn through revelation the next step in how to build strong walls.  And then I learn – when I have mastered all that is needed to support the roof – what must be done to complete the design of my roof.

I see revelation not as just a problem of righteousness but as a process of learning – Starting with a foundation and then building ling upon line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.  And this is not according to my plan and what I want but according to G-d’s design.  Therefore the reason that so many others were not able to restore the covenants as was Joseph is because the must be a foundation first laid – and many of those that so righteously sought were given revelation that the foundation could be established.  In the work of restoration – Joseph was at the right place and time to complete the roof.

And now here are we – Learning and receiving revelation – built upon the foundations of the past but in this quest for truth we must learn the next step – and that next step has been well designed by our G-d for he has given many spiritual gifts that he can reveal his truth to all those that desire to receive it.  But those that will not accept the truths of the foundation that has been laid before us – will not and cannot see the revelations to move G-d’s covenant people forward and complete the work of truth.

 

The Traveler

So, to your understanding... Joseph Smith was the ONLY ONE of those people seeking truth that was living in New York in 1821 who had the right amount of humility.  So, God chose New York, 1820's... the person to be right there at that time gets to have the answer.  That doesn't make sense.

 

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So, to your understanding... Joseph Smith was the ONLY ONE of those people seeking truth that was living in New York in 1821 who had the right amount of humility.  So, God chose New York, 1820's... the person to be right there at that time gets to have the answer.  That doesn't make sense.

 

 

Again I would make reference to Moroni chapter 10 with particular attention to spiritual gifts.   It is my understanding that even though spiritual gifts may be different the truth that is manifested through such gifts are all the same and from the same G-d.  I believe that there were others, for example, in New York that sought the truth and so embraced it when it was revealed to them and all of them accepted the spiritual gift of apostleship and prophesy that was given to Joseph Smith.

In addition I find it interesting that even in the secular world so many truths of history seemed to blossom at the same time in different parts of the world.

For the record – I do not believe different truths are given through revelation.  For example – I believe that anyone that ask of G-d what church they should join – that though the answer may come through different means or through different spiritual gifts that the answer from G-d will always be the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  As far as making sense (which includes being consistence) it is the only answer that makes sense to me and the truths that I have received.

 

The Traveler

[estradling75]

On 6/20/2016 at 4:08 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Revelation is not what you seem to claim it to be. The Lord withholds from some what He does not from others per His will, not per ours. We only receive as fast as we are able to bear in accordance with that which the Lord chooses to reveal. The reason there is a difference is because the Lord has proclaimed, repeatedly, that He reveals things to those with the authority to receive such (or the mantle, or the stewardship, or however you want to call it) that He does not reveal to others. The simplest example would be the Bishop who receives revelation that my neighbor isn't worthy of such-n-such due to such-n-such, a revelation that I would NEVER receive, no matter how worthy and enlightened. It is not knowledge that is just floating out there in the ethosphere waiting to be absorbed by whoever is in tune. And there are a great deal of revelations that come through specific channels and specific channels only. That is the difference.

I think the bolded parts of this statement is in error...

Please see https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-5-the-grand-destiny-of-the-faithful?lang=eng

According to his Lorenzo Snow received the revelation of

“As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.”

Before it was given to the church through Joseph Smith.

If you are correct then Lorenzo Snow who at the time had no authority over Joseph Smith concerning the things of the Church.... Lied or Satan deceive him with a true Revelation or that God made a mistake...  None of this options are really acceptable.

If however we accept that your position is not an absolute on whom God might reveal things, but instead a guideline for us to determine other peoples claims to church guiding revelation from God...  Then we can accept everything that Lorenzo Snow tells us at face value and use his example of what we should do if we ever feel we received a revelation outside of our stewardship.

 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

9 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

If however we accept that your position is not an absolute on whom God might reveal things, but instead a guideline for us to determine other peoples claims to church guiding revelation from God... 

I think that's fair.

There is, however, one difference that I think worth mentioning... The church was in its infancy at the time, and the patterns and whatnot were being established, as well as the doctrines. That is not the case any more. So I will admit that there is some potential that someone might get some revelatory inkling of something not yet revealed to the church because they will need said understanding for something in their lives and/or future, that is probably, generally, less likely than in the earliest days of the church, and, it is also something to be highly, highly wary of.  (In point of fact, if I recall correctly, I think that Lorenzo Snow even reserved his position until it was fully confirmed later, rather than belligerently determining that he knew better than Joseph because of said revelation).

So, yeah...I'll accept that the way I stated things was not 100% accurate, but I think the overall point, for the most part, remains.

[estradling75]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I think that's fair.

There is, however, one difference that I think worth mentioning... The church was in its infancy at the time, and the patterns and whatnot were being established, as well as the doctrines. That is not the case any more. So I will admit that there is some potential that someone might get some revelatory inkling of something not yet revealed to the church because they will need said understanding for something in their lives and/or future, that is probably, generally, less likely than in the earliest days of the church, and, it is also something to be highly, highly wary of.  (In point of fact, if I recall correctly, I think that Lorenzo Snow even reserved his position until it was fully confirmed later, rather than belligerently determining that he knew better than Joseph because of said revelation).

So, yeah...I'll accept that the way I stated things was not 100% accurate, but I think the overall point, for the most part, remains.

Indeed... Please note I have been very careful about differentiating between getting a revelation from God and being authorized to publish revelation to anyone at all.  The first I see as a matter of the Lord's will and promises and the personal faith of the person...  the second is very very clearly defined and limited.

While the church was in infancy the Lord had already clearly established who got revelations for the Church (see the Hiram Page incident)... so I don't consider this to be a grey area when Snow received it... After all we both note (and the text shows) that Lorenzo Snow knew it was not his place to present this revelation to the church.  He waited until it came through appointed channels and then fully supported it, with his personal testimony/witness of it truthfulness

 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

17 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Indeed... Please note I have been very careful about differentiating between getting a revelation from God and being authorized to publish revelation to anyone at all.  The first I see as a matter of the Lord's will and promises and the personal faith of the person...  the second is very very clearly defined and limited.

While the church was in infancy the Lord had already clearly established who got revelations for the Church (see the Hiram Page incident)... so I don't consider this to be a grey area when Snow received it... After all we both note (and the text shows) that Lorenzo Snow knew it was not his place to present this revelation to the church.  He waited until it came through appointed channels and then fully supported it, with his personal testimony/witness of it truthfulness

 

 

My concern...if it isn't obvious...is the apparent myriad of folk out there who seem to think they have revelation that the church is behind the times on homosexual marriage or women having the priesthood or the like. Even if one keeps said "revelation" to oneself (which, of course, those I am aware of fail in that regard...but....) there is still a great danger in the presumption that one can get ahead of the church -- particularly on issues that are solidly doctrinally based (such as homosexual marriage).

If someone receives a revelation that work for the dead will be allowed for the Jews in their lifetime and keeps it to themselves I have no concern.

[estradling75]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

My concern...if it isn't obvious...is the apparent myriad of folk out there who seem to think they have revelation that the church is behind the times on homosexual marriage or women having the priesthood or the like. Even if one keeps said "revelation" to oneself (which, of course, those I am aware of fail in that regard...but....) there is still a great danger in the presumption that one can get ahead of the church -- particularly on issues that are solidly doctrinally based (such as homosexual marriage).

If someone receives a revelation that work for the dead will be allowed for the Jews in their lifetime and keeps it to themselves I have no concern.

Indeed... the very first thing one need to be sure about personal Revelation is the source...  And a good indicator is what has been taught by the Lord . It is one of the best benchmarks we have for determining such thing... Thus the farther away ones personal revelation is from the church's stand the more likely it is to not be true...  We should not let our personal desires get in the way and often times we do...  And if we ever think we are "ahead" of the church that would be a good indicator that pride has us rather then the spirit.

As for those who publish such things... well that is a clear sign for any third party that such a person is not to be trusted

 

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

As for those who publish such things... well that is a clear sign for any third party that such a person is not to be trusted

If only this were understood by all.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

My concern...if it isn't obvious...is the apparent myriad of folk out there who seem to think they have revelation that the church is behind the times on homosexual marriage or women having the priesthood or the like. Even if one keeps said "revelation" to oneself (which, of course, those I am aware of fail in that regard...but....) there is still a great danger in the presumption that one can get ahead of the church -- particularly on issues that are solidly doctrinally based (such as homosexual marriage).

If someone receives a revelation that work for the dead will be allowed for the Jews in their lifetime and keeps it to themselves I have no concern.

I am concerned with those that have become deeply entrenched in false understandings of marriage – how do they take a single first step towards the light.  For those involved with homosexuality – turning to many members of the Church for love and help may prove as difficult as informing their current “friends” of their concerns that something is not quite right.  Of course a sinner is not in the right and is clearly lost.  But how do we communicate that we will always find them and lovingly offer them safe assistance back without them feeling that they do not fit or are not like the rest of us? I tend to think of repentance as a process and a journey for the noblest of saints or the lowliest of sinners and not as a single arrival event.

I have discovered from my own experience that I am seldom successful by myself but that others are usually better than I am but still it is difficult to accept what it is that they see that I don’t and still fully support them in it.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 But how do we communicate that we will always find them and lovingly offer them safe assistance back without them feeling that they do not fit or are not like the rest of us?

We don't because that is a falsehood that cannot possibly succeed. They are no more like "us" than I am like you. Everyone is different and we do not need to be, nor are we, nor will we ever be in this life, in the same boat fully. "They" are different, just as I am different, just as you are different. Approaching everything from the idea of sameness fails.

Of course there are samenesses that we can focus on that do not fail. The atonement. The ability to repent. The love of God. The need for humility and obedience. And unconditional love (not to be confused with unconditional acceptance). Etc.

But expecting everyone to "fit" is just silly, imo, and should not be the goal. Trying to help people understand that "fitting" (particularly socially) is not the goal is a much better approach.

[TeresaA]

On June 6, 2016 at 5:35 PM, omegaseamaster75 said:

I am a little surprised they said to look to the internet for an answer.

The church has no official position on the marriage of Jesus, however it has been speculated by modern prophets that he was. That the marriage in Cana in which he turned water to wine was his own marriage. However this is not the doctrine of the church and does not nullify Christ's teachings on marriage. Read your bible.

I know that you are not claiming that it was His, but the marriage at Cana couldn't have been His. The scriptures are clear He and the disciples were invited to it. 

[estradling75]

21 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

If only this were understood by all.

While true it is not the point I am trying to make...

Take someone who is faithfully seeking and trying to learn to discern the spirit of the Lord/revelation... from other sources...

As they are doing this they might get something outside their stewardship and they will need to know how to handle it.  If it is of God, discarding it because it is not under your stewardship is unwise.  God had a reason for giving it to you.   So you wait and ponder it while keeping it to yourself.  It time that "revelation" will bear some kind of fruit that you can clearly judge.  Either it will be confirmed in which case you have a better understanding of how the Lord speaks to you, or it will be proven wrong... in which case you will know what not to listen to.

In neither case is is wise to share.