Church updates security guidelines for meetinghouses

[NeuroTypical]

I'm an assistant ward clerk, and don't usually go to Bishopric meetings, but the head clerk is out of town, so I was attending.  They read a letter from HQ regarding updated security guidelines.  Good stuff.  Probably most of it isn't new, except for the active shooter stuff.  Highlights:

* Usual stuff like call the cops, lock cars in parking lots, if you're alone in a building keep all the doors locked, know where the fire alarms and exits are, etc.
* Regarding carrying firearms, the guidelines quote handbook 2 (“The carrying of lethal weapons . . . within [Church] walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law”), and use the phrase "strongly discourages" anyone except law enforcement officers from carrying.  
* Preventative stuff like asking people to report suspicious persons to leaders (and cops if warranted)
* Leave suspicious people alone.  If they get disruptive or disorderly, calmly invite them to stop or leave.  If they refuse, call the cops.
* People disrupting a meeting: Be calm and polite, don't invade their personal space, ask them to stop or leave.  Or go meet with a priesthood leader outside of the meeting.  If they remain disruptive in the meeting, or try to get to the microphone, turn off the microphone and dismiss the meeting.  Don't use physical force unless necessary.  
* Responding to an active shooter: The church is adopting the Run/Hide/Fight methodology pioneered by Houston 3 years ago.  Basically, if there is deadly violence happening at church, run the heck the other way.  If you can't run away, hide (lock doors, black out windows, silence cell phones, etc).  If you can't run and you can't hide, fight for your lives (anything and everything in order to incapacitate the bad guy.  Organize to defend yourselves).  

If I heard correctly, this won't be a change to handbook 2, just something for church leaders to be aware of, and consider when advising training auxiliaries.  I don't think it'll be read over the pulpit at sacrament meeting or anything like that. 

Good stuff.  The bishopric spoke fondly about the 4-5 people they knew who carry at church.  I expressed hope that my ward would consider doing some training on this stuff, and I happily volunteered to play the part of the suspicious or disruptive person.   I'd be great at that. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[zil]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

If I heard correctly, this won't be a change to handbook 2, just something for church leaders to be aware of, and consider when advising training auxiliaries.  I don't think it'll be read over the pulpit at sacrament meeting or anything like that. 

We were explicitly counseled to keep this within the auxiliary (RS in this case) presidency.  The only reason I can think of for this is to keep the masses from panicking over the thought of an active shooter at church.  Also, they expect leaders to take charge in such situations.

[tesuji]

I hope this never happens but, you know, Last Days. This semi-related scripture comes to mind, about what we can expect the world to become:

Quote

 66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;

 67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.

 68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.

 69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.

D&C 45:68

Also a reminder about how cool Zion will be...

Edited June 20, 2016 by tesuji

[mirkwood]

I heard about this and was able to get a copy to read from the HPGL.  I'm sure the leaders expect that myself, the other officer and the SWAT paramedic will jump into action.  I should probably ask the bishop about it though.

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, zil said:

We were explicitly counseled to keep this within the auxiliary (RS in this case) presidency.  The only reason I can think of for this is to keep the masses from panicking over the thought of an active shooter at church.  Also, they expect leaders to take charge in such situations.

Heh.  We talked about shooters and concealed carriers in Bishopric, no issues.  We talked about shooters and concealed carriers in PEC (slightly larger audience), no issues.  We talked about shooters and concealed carriers in Ward Council (even larger audience), and someone shook his head and stated out loud "I can't see why anyone would ever want to take a gun to church."  I mean, like right after talking about active shooter scenarios and fighting back.  

The People of Ammon took an oath of peace to never again be violent, and refused to fight, even when being hacked into pieces.  Their sons were the Stripling Warriors, who defeated their enemies on the battlefield through deadly violence.  I'm always amazed to think that the church's pavilion is large enough to hold both types.  But I'm not really surprised when I see friction resulting from both types in a room at church talking about how best to deal with bad guys. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[zil]

4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Heh.  We talked about shooters and concealed carriers in Bishopric, no issues.  We talked about shooters and concealed carriers in PEC (slightly larger audience), no issues.  We talked about shooters and concealed carriers in Ward Council (even larger audience), and someone shook his head and stated out loud "I can't see why anyone would ever want to take a gun to church."  I mean, like right after talking about active shooter scenarios and fighting back.  

The People of Ammon took an oath of peace to never again be violent, and refused to fight, even when being hacked into pieces.  Their sons were the Stripling Warriors, who defeated their enemies on the battlefield through deadly violence.  I'm always amazed to think that the church's pavilion is large enough to hold both types.  But I'm not really surprised when I see friction resulting from both types in a room at church talking about how best to deal with bad guys. 

I don't really think there's anything surprising about the friction given that we're talking about life and death.  (I could go on for a few paragraphs about the issue, but my thoughts don't matter - the church's policies and guidance are the relevant part.)

 

[tesuji]

57 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Heh.  We talked about shooters and concealed carriers in Bishopric, no issues.  We talked about shooters and concealed carriers in PEC (slightly larger audience), no issues.  We talked about shooters and concealed carriers in Ward Council (even larger audience), and someone shook his head and stated out loud "I can't see why anyone would ever want to take a gun to church."  I mean, like right after talking about active shooter scenarios and fighting back.  

The People of Ammon took an oath of peace to never again be violent, and refused to fight, even when being hacked into pieces.  Their sons were the Stripling Warriors, who defeated their enemies on the battlefield through deadly violence.  I'm always amazed to think that the church's pavilion is large enough to hold both types.  But I'm not really surprised when I see friction resulting from both types in a room at church talking about how best to deal with bad guys. 

I still can't see why anyone would ever want to take a gun to church. Guns in church make me feel extremely much less safe.

[NeuroTypical]

5 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Guns in church make me feel extremely much less safe.

Hi tesuji,

What state do you live in?  If it allows conceal carry, then how do you feel coming to the realization that everywhere you have ever gone in public for the last decade or two, even to a church, you have been surrounded at all times by law abiding people carrying guns?

Will you feel less safe next Sunday, than you have in all your previous Sundays?  Even though nothing changed except your perspective?

Feelings are odd things, aren't they?

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, zil said:

We were explicitly counseled to keep this within the auxiliary (RS in this case) presidency.  

I find that counsel odd. How can the members appropriately follow church counsel if they don't know what church counsel is?

[zil]

6 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I still can't see why anyone would ever want to take a gun to church. Guns in church make me feel extremely much less safe.

See, I do not comprehend the second statement.  Do you know the source(s) of this feeling?  Are you willing to share it with us?  (Cuz I'd really like to know the source - I'm hoping it's not one of the two I already know.)

[zil]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I find that counsel odd. How can the members appropriately follow church counsel if they don't know what church counsel is?

The counsel was to leadership.  The memo (or whatever they call it) was for leadership - explicitly.  It was not to the general membership - had it been, I'm sure it would have come with instruction to read it over the pulpit.

[LeSellers]

56 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I still can't see why anyone would ever want to take a gun to church. Guns in church make me feel extremely much less safe.

If we see that we, as Saints, are targets of potentially violent people who"disagree" with our doctrines and practices (e.g., homosexual sin, same-sex "marriage", the Book of Mormon), I can easily see why manybody would want to take their guns to church.

We can see that we're not the only targets, and that it's not a few churches that have been attacked. In Colorado Springs, in Georgia, even an LDS chapel where the bishop was shot'n'killed or a sister was slain by her "husband". No, sir, carrying a gun to church makes a great deal of sense, and I would feel much safer if I knew that there were dozens of brothers and sisters who were armed.

That said, I will follow the Brethren's counsel. It may be that my faith is weak, but it is strong enough to abide by their statement.

Lehi

Edited June 20, 2016 by LeSellers

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

The counsel was to leadership.  The memo (or whatever they call it) was for leadership - explicitly.  It was not to the general membership - had it been, I'm sure it would have come with instruction to read it over the pulpit.

My point is simply that I don't know why it wouldn't have come with said pulpit related instructions. I don't buy the don't worry them idea. It's not like it's not already on everyone's mind.  

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I still can't see why anyone would ever want to take a gun to church. Guns in church make me feel extremely much less safe.

This is all a matter of perception.

So, here's the exercise:

There's a gun on the table.

What's you're reaction?  Do you feel scared?  If yes, then you are in the "guns are bad" perception.  If no, then you are in the "guns are machines" perception.  Note that the gun on the table will sit on that table without killing anything including a single fly for centuries unless something/somebody pulls its trigger.

Now, if you answered No, then expand that exercise.  There's a gun in the hands of a policeman.  Do you feel scared?  If yes, then you are in the "cops are bad" perception.  If no, then you are in the "cops are good" perception.  Now, if you're under the impression that cops cannot be trusted with a firearm then you'll have a hard time in most anywhere in America.

Now, let's expand that exercise.  There's a gun in the hands of your Bishop.  Do you feel scared?  If you can't trust your Bishop that he is a responsible person when it comes to firearms when he's carrying one, then it's difficult to imagine that you can trust him with something that has more eternal consequence like - approving your temple recommend.

Anyway, this goes with irrational fear of something - like snakes.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[zil]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

My point is simply that I don't know why it wouldn't have come with said pulpit related instructions. I don't buy the don't worry them idea. It's not like it's not already on everyone's mind.  

Well, I'm not a panicker myself, so I don't know why either, but I'm sure they have their reasons.  I'm only commenting because it's already posted, so there's no point avoiding it now.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

If we see that we, as Saints, are targets of potentially violent people who"disagree" with our doctrines and practices (e.g., homosexual sin, same-sex "marriage", the Book of Mormon), I can easily see why manybody would want to take a gun to church.

We can see that we're not the only targets, and that it's not a few churches that have been attacked. In Colorado Springs, in Georgia, even an LDS chapel where the bishop was shot'n'killed or a sister was slain by her "husband". No, sir, carrying a gun to church makes a great deal of sense, and I would feel much safer if I knew that there were dozens of brothers and sisters who were armed.

That said, I will follow the Brethren's counsel. It may be that my faith is weak, but it is strong enough to abide by their statement.

Lehi

I very much agree. I will not carry based on said counsel. But I secretly hope that several in the ward do and are. If someone comes into my sacrament meeting and starts shooting the place up, I want them taken out a.s.a.p.

[David13]

I'd feel safer in church if I knew EVERYBODY there was carrying a gun.  That way a bad guy wouldn't stand a chance at getting me.

People who are afraid of guns are like people afraid of the dark.  An irrational and uneducated fear.

Get a gun and get some training and get out to the gun range, learn something about reality, and you not only will not fear guns you will understand from your own knowledge why you then feel safer with your brethren armed.

Gun control means you want a good guy to be in control of a gun at any time, and not a bad guy.

As to the recent shooting in Florida, does anybody know what it was that stopped the shooter?  What was it that stopped the shooter?  Was it going out and passing more laws, then more laws, then more laws?  No?

What was it?  Oh, lo and behold ... A GUN!?

If it wasn't for the gun I suppose the guy would still be over there shooting people while the geniuses kept meeting and meeting and meeting to determine what to do about him.

dc

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, David13 said:

I'd feel safer in church if I knew EVERYBODY there was carrying a gun. 

I'd like you to carefully consider "everyone" in your ward and then, perhaps, reconsider this statement. There are, decidedly, several members in my ward that I do NOT want carrying guns....ever!

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'd like you to carefully consider "everyone" in your ward and then, perhaps, reconsider this statement. There are, decidedly, several members in my ward that I do NOT want carrying guns....ever!

YEP!  I agree.

[David13]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'd like you to carefully consider "everyone" in your ward and then, perhaps, reconsider this statement. There are, decidedly, several members in my ward that I do NOT want carrying guns....ever!

I'm thinking.  I can't really think of anyone.  Let me think a little more.  Maybe I'm just in a good ward.

Of course, in reality, never would EVERYONE carry.  Only those who wanted to.

And who felt they were responsible enough to, and in my ward I would certainly feel fine with that.  I go to the gun range and we have a large crowd up to 50 or so and I've never felt bad with any of them.  Of course that's a semi private group.

dc

[David13]

5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

YEP!  I agree.

What kind of wards are you guys in?

 

 

I'm still thinking.  I still can't rule out anyone.

dc

I'm comparing to the gun range and at the range not only does EVERYONE have a gun, including the kids (who, of course are being very adequately supervised by adults) but they all have MORE THAN ONE EACH.

It has never bothered me.

Edited June 20, 2016 by David13

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

5 minutes ago, David13 said:

I'm thinking.  I can't really think of anyone. 

If I were in your ward you wouldn't want me to carry a gun...not because I'm a bad person, but when I'm stressed or anxious my hands shake so badly, I might accidentally shoot you.  I'm a terrible shot under the best of circumstances (and I've even been trained, I'm just really clumsy.)  

ETA: the gun range is a calm, controlled space...and no one is shooting back at you.  I think the piece you are missing is considering how some of your ward members might react under pressure...

Edited June 20, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[David13]

2 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

If I were in your ward you wouldn't want me to carry a gun...not because I'm a bad person, but when I'm stressed or anxious my hands shake so badly, I might accidentally shoot you.  I'm a terrible shot under the best of circumstances (and I've even been trained, I'm just really clumsy.)  

Well I guess then in your case I'd have to say I would want you carrying a gun in my ward if you were and felt yourself to be capable of it.

And it sounds like your judgment is good and you know your limitations.  I'd feel safe with you there armed RATHER THAN NO ONE BUT A BAD GUY.

dc

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, David13 said:

What kind of wards are you guys in?

 

 

I'm still thinking.  I still can't rule out anyone.

dc

A ward with a 20 year old who has cerebral palsy, several teen-agers who are full of themselves, a woman who has lupos who can't control her muscle movements, and several octogenarian and even a nonagenarian who I'm glad have children in the ward who takes care of them so they don't have to drive anymore.

[David13]

4 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

 

ETA: the gun range is a calm, controlled space...and no one is shooting back at you.  I think the piece you are missing is considering how some of your ward members might react under pressure...

I'd rather take my chances on them rather than no one but the bad guy.

dc