Accepting Pedophilia: Is it going to happen?

[Blackmarch]

7 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I seldom start posts with "I believe..." but it is necessary on this topic.  I believe that most pedophiles suffer an attraction that they did not learn. In other words they were born with the predisposition. Part of the curse that came out of the Garden of Eden is that nature became corrupt. If I am correct, and the pedophile just started seeing children as sexually attractive (as opposed to the volitional act of looking at pornography), and they resist that temptation, through spiritual disciplines, through seeking psychological support, and through godly will power, then is that not ADMIRABLE?

I differ. While our hindbrain has various impulses that come with being a living organism, how it makes connections between that and our conscious thought and wires up throughout development is affected by many things, both things an individual chooses and stimulus from their environment play more of a role than anything one is born with. It's rarely so simple as "it just happened"

Ill think youll find for most that volition came first, and that porn was instrumental for many of them.

 

Resisting temptation is always good, but when one spends their life digging their own grave... It becomes very difficult to get out, let alone to keep any sort of progress while getting out.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Why pedophilia might not go mainstream for awhile: It is perceived to victimize females. Campus hedonism is even under a cloud, because the government has strong-armed universities into assuming that accusers are victims, and defendants are assailants (especially if the former is female). So, unless pedophiles can convince the cultural elites that their agenda would not hurt or coerce little girls, they may be a long way from acceptance.

I don't think this will matter on a number of fronts.

1. How many trial results and how many cultural tells do we have to recite regarding a rape culture to make people accept that this is already accepted (just secretly)?  The liberal news isn't reporting it.  You really have to hunt for anything that supports that it even exists.  And there is a lot.
2. How many prison rapes or even outside of prison male-male rapes have to happen before these are even considered rape?
3. The vast majority of pedophiles are adult men who want young boys.  So, the woman aspect is moot.
4. There is already a huge underground trade of young girls who are brought to an outside US jurisdiction island for millionaires to have their way with them.  Then they are brought back and nothing happens.  The media never reports on it.  It's just accepted by them.
5. Supposedly, we will eventually approach the evils of Sodom and Gomorrah.  It was accepted there.  It will eventually happen here.  I realize it is a cop out to say "it is only a matter of time."  But considering how fast transgender issues followed gay marriage, I'd say pedophilia is not too far off.

 

[prisonchaplain]

@Carborendum Here I was trying to be urr...:::cough::: optimistic (relatively speaking), and you had to go and ruin even that tiny modicum of hope.  :::sigh:::

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@Carborendum Here I was trying to be urr...:::cough::: optimistic (relatively speaking), and you had to go and ruin even that tiny modicum of hope.  :::sigh:::

Sorry.  Sometimes I get carried away with my pessimism.  I'll try to be all rainbows and unicorns for the rest of the week.

[Guest]

And I'm keeping my promise.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

And I'm keeping my promise.

I prefer the 1 hour loop version: (Note the fact that it's HD. I think that's that's important.)

 

 

[prisonchaplain]

Why do I have feelings of wanting to hurt living things, right now????

[Vort]

On 6/27/2016 at 4:13 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Let me be very clear. I consider the having of sexual desires toward children to be an imperfection (and a might serious one) that God would not be pleased with in the least, acted upon or not, and although one might be strapped with said weakness for one's life, such imperfections must be overcome before one can qualify for perfection and thereby enter their Celestial Glory. I would hope that everyone sees it the same.

I do not.

I believe that the wolf that wins is the one we feed. Nevertheless, I believe that we do not always choose our wolves. I have liked girls (that is to say, females of my general age bracket) for about as long as I can remember, and same-sex attraction has never been something I have experienced. There are men I love deeply, but the idea of sex with a man is repulsive to me. Nevertheless, it is clear to me that some men actually do experience such feelings, weird and horrible though it may seem to me. Am I to conclude that they are spiritually inferior to me?

I buy into some few arguments used by the pro-homosexuality lobby: I believe that there are various sexual preferences, and that many people have an inclination toward them that is not consciously chosen. I also firmly believe that sexual attraction to children is one of those preferences. I suspect that many people throughout history who have famously loved children and worked toward their benefit may well have had pedophile leanings. That does not negate the good they accomplished; indeed, their pedophilia may have been exactly what led them to take such an interest in the welfare of children. As long as they do not act on their sexual desires for children, recognizing those desires as destructive and fighting against them, I don't see how such people can be viewed as anything other than admirable. Would that I fought so manfully -- and successfully -- against my particular sinful inclinations, which I am grateful to say don't include sexual attraction to children, other men, animals, or inanimate objects.

And while my lack of such perverse attractions may in some sense make me "better", the way a healthy person is "better" than a sick person, I don't really see much cause to praise me for my righteousness in such things. As far as I know, I didn't choose not to have such attractions. I just don't have them, thanks to some lucky combination of genetics, upbringing, socialization, indoctrination, and/or life experiences.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Vort

[The Folk Prophet]

9 hours ago, Vort said:

I do not.

I believe that the wolf that wins is the one we feed. Nevertheless, I believe that we do not always choose our wolves. I have liked girls (that is to say, females of my general age bracket) for about as long as I can remember, and same-sex attraction has never been something I have experienced. There are men I love deeply, but the idea of sex with a man is repulsive to me. Nevertheless, it is clear to me that some men actually do experience such feelings, weird and horrible though it may seem to me. Am I to conclude that they are spiritually inferior to me?

I buy into some few arguments used by the pro-homosexuality lobby: I believe that there are various sexual preferences, and that many people have an inclination toward them that is not consciously chosen. I also firmly believe that sexual attraction to children is one of those preferences. I suspect that many people throughout history who have famously loved children and worked toward their benefit may well have had pedophile leanings. That does not negate the good they accomplished; indeed, their pedophilia may have been exactly what led them to take such an interest in the welfare of children. As long as they do not act on their sexual desires for children, recognizing those desires as destructive and fighting against them, I don't see how such people can be viewed as anything other than admirable. Would that I fought so manfully -- and successfully -- against my particular sinful inclinations, which I am grateful to say don't include sexual attraction to children, other men, animals, or inanimate objects.

And while my lack of such perverse attractions may in some sense make me "better", the way a healthy person is "better" than a sick person, I don't really see much cause to praise me for my righteousness in such things. As far as I know, I didn't choose not to have such attractions. I just don't have them, thanks to some lucky combination of genetics, upbringing, socialization, indoctrination, and/or life experiences.

By following such logic to the eternities it implies that there must be gods sitting on their thrones with homosexual and pedophile tendencies -- just under control. Do we believe that God is potentially wicked inside but just keeps it suppressed?

[Just_A_Guy]

38 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

By following such logic to the eternities it implies that there must be gods sitting on their thrones with homosexual and pedophile tendencies -- just under control. Do we believe that God is potentially wicked inside but just keeps it suppressed?

I don't follow that logic, any more than I buy the idea that there will be "suppressed amputees" or "suppressed deaf people" in the Celestial Kingdom.

What you have is people who were sick or maimed in mortality, coped with it as best they could, and rose in the resurrection whole and cured.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

54 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I don't follow that logic, any more than I buy the idea that there will be "suppressed amputees" or "suppressed deaf people" in the Celestial Kingdom.

What you have is people who were sick or maimed in mortality, coped with it as best they could, and rose in the resurrection whole and cured.

Let me refer back to the discussion to explain why I said what I did:

Me: We need to overcome to get to the Celestial Kingdom. (Literally, "such imperfections must be overcome before one can qualify for perfection and thereby enter their Celestial Glory. I would hope that everyone sees it the same.")

Vort: I don't agree.

See where I say the logic must therefore follow? I'm not talking about mortal thorns in flesh. I'm talking about striving for perfection (whether we get there or not), and overcoming weaknesses as best we can, and being like God as much as possible (by His grace through our obedience). I'm talking about best effort to "be ye therefore perfect".

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

We need to overcome to get to the Celestial Kingdom. (Literally, "such imperfections must be overcome before one can qualify for perfection and thereby enter their Celestial Glory.")

Not that I entirely disagree, but doesn't this, as worded, essentially mean that in order to qualify for perfection, one must be perfect to begin with?  What is meant by "overcome"?

Edited June 30, 2016 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Not that I entirely disagree, but doesn't this, as worded, essentially mean that in order to qualify for perfection, one must be perfect to begin with?  What is meant by "overcome"?

Maybe my wording is poor.

I'll let Elder Maxwell word it: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/05/overcome-even-as-i-also-overcame.p1?lang=eng

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Maybe my wording is poor.

I'll let Elder Maxwell word it: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/05/overcome-even-as-i-also-overcame.p1?lang=eng

While I always love reading Maxwell, I believe his concluding statement as a definition causes me to lose all hope, if that is what we are to achieve by the end of this life.

Quote

The spiritually settled accept that invitation, and “through the atonement of Christ,” they become and overcome! 

 I continue to struggle with so many character flaws and impulses and thought patterns that I know are not of God.  While I refrain from actual actions fairly well, at the rate I'm working on them, I figure I'll only truly "be settled" and have "become" on many things by the time I reach 90 years old or so.  Others, I won't be "spiritually settled" until about 200 to 300 years old.  That's assuming a fairly constant rate of improvement.

If I've got to be spiritually settled on all of it before I die (at the assumed average age of 72) then I'm heading for the Telestial Kingdom.  No doubt about it.  No hope for me.  I might as well quit right now.  I'm being serious.

The one thing that continues to give me hope is that as long as I keep working at it and keep making progress, enduring to the end of my life, the Atonement will heal me at that time, whether I've completely "settled & become" or not.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Guest

[Vort]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Let me refer back to the discussion to explain why I said what I did:

Me: We need to overcome to get to the Celestial Kingdom. (Literally, "such imperfections must be overcome before one can qualify for perfection and thereby enter their Celestial Glory. I would hope that everyone sees it the same.")

Vort: I don't agree.

See where I say the logic must therefore follow? I'm not talking about mortal thorns in flesh. I'm talking about striving for perfection (whether we get there or not), and overcoming weaknesses as best we can, and being like God as much as possible (by His grace through our obedience). I'm talking about best effort to "be ye therefore perfect".

I disagree with your approach to the issue, as well as with what I understand to be the implications of what you say. In some cases, "overcoming" an imperfection might be simply learning to live with it without allowing it to lead you to act badly. As JAG pointed out, in the resurrection we assume that all physical imperfections will be healed. I see no reason to suppose that perverse sexual attraction (e.g. homosexuality, pedophilia) might not be a simple physical imperfection that will be healed in the eternities, and that our duty in this estate is to endure it and learn to control it, rather than allowing it to control us.

If you agree with this, then perhaps I don't disagree with you after all. But in that case, your expressed opinions don't seem to go along with that point of view.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Vort

[prisonchaplain]

One of the unique teachings in LDS theology is the pre-mortal existence.  I'm wondering if belief in this, and perhaps the idea that there was some volition in our experiencing the lives we do in mortality, that drives some of the caution about having too much empathy for those who find themselves attracted to children or adolescents?

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

I disagree with your approach to the issue, as well as with what I understand to be the implications of what you say. In some cases, "overcoming" an imperfection might be simply learning to live with it without allowing it to lead you to act badly. As JAG pointed out, in the resurrection we assume that all physical imperfections will be healed. I see no reason to suppose that perverse sexual attraction (e.g. homosexuality, pedophilia) might not be a simple physical imperfection that will be healed in the eternities, and that our duty in this estate is to endure it and learn to control it, rather than allowing it to control us.

If you agree with this, then perhaps I don't disagree with you after all. But in that case, your expressed opinions don't seem to go along with that point of view.

Vort – I agree, at least in part by your conclusions but my thinking on the subject may be different.  We are told in scripture that Christ descended below all and paid the price of all sin.  I do not pretend to know the full extent of his suffering but I am sure it means that he has suffered and paid for all sin – including pedophilia.  That even as horrible (scarlet) the sin is – he paid for the sin.  I have also experienced that regardless whatever sin we commit and repent of that there still lingers a sorrow for the damage we caused – in ourselves and especially in others.  I also know that the temptation to sin again does not seem to leave me alone – it does become less a temptation but I am form time to time even tempted to do things that I have resisted my entire life. 

The other point is that regardless of whether or not a person repents – we are commanded to forgive them.  We have also been told that to withhold forgiveness is a worse sin than whatever we refuse to forgive.  That is a very harsh thought to deal with.  But I deal with this temptation to not forgive others a lot even thought I have made some small progress and improvement.  We may have what we think is good reason to believe a pedophilia has not really repented if they are still tempted but the truth is we must forgive – and I think that includes accepting the possibility that they will be Celestial.  But in the end I am concerned that if there are sins not forgiven because we remain tempted – I am in serious trouble.  But since I believe I can and will be forgiven - even if I am still tempted – I realize I must accept everyone else trying to repent - even a repentant pedophilia that struggles yet with their sins – in a similar to the struggles I have with my sins.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

One of the unique teachings in LDS theology is the pre-mortal existence.  I'm wondering if belief in this, and perhaps the idea that there was some volition in our experiencing the lives we do in mortality, that drives some of the caution about having too much empathy for those who find themselves attracted to children or adolescents?

I'm not following your wording very well, so let me see if I get your meaning.  If you're saying that somehow our belief in the pre-existence is somehow driving our caution for too much empathy for pedophiles, I'd say no. It's just the same as any other faith.  And based on this thread, it seems that only TFP and I are thinking it's "bad form" to have empathy for pedophiles.

[Vort]

45 minutes ago, Traveler said:

We have also been told that to withhold forgiveness is a worse sin than whatever we refuse to forgive.  That is a very harsh thought to deal with.

Indeed it is. Honestly, I am not sure what to make of that teaching.

[SpiritDragon]

6 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

By following such logic to the eternities it implies that there must be gods sitting on their thrones with homosexual and pedophile tendencies -- just under control. Do we believe that God is potentially wicked inside but just keeps it suppressed?

While I must say that I am in the camp that believes these things to be physical/mental infirmities that will go away in the eternities, your statement has lead me to a similar question; will heterosexuals no longer have heterosexual desires? It doesn't really add up that this desire would be gone, just under control - as in within the bounds the Lord has set - following the rules of Celestial law. Is it likely that other perfected Goddesses will be attractive? It seems obvious they will, but the perfected beings won't be ruled by the desires of the flesh.

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And based on this thread, it seems that only TFP and I are thinking it's "bad form" to have empathy for pedophiles.

By "pedophiles", we are speaking of those adults who are sexually attracted to children, even if they do not act on it. Most of what has been written presupposes a chaste pedophile. In that vein, I would ask why pedophilia is so especially awful that it would be bad form to empathize with their struggles, while we have no such stricture against empathy toward those who feel the desire to have sex with their secretary, their neighbor's wife, their own gender, the family dog, vegetables, blow-up dolls, and so forth.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Vort

[prisonchaplain]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'm not following your wording very well, so let me see if I get your meaning.  If you're saying that somehow our belief in the pre-existence is somehow driving our caution for too much empathy for pedophiles, I'd say no. It's just the same as any other faith.  And based on this thread, it seems that only TFP and I are thinking it's "bad form" to have empathy for pedophiles.

What I am wondering is whether or not the teaching on pre-mortal existence includes the idea that we chose our lives before we entered mortality--that those who end up being alcoholic, or drug addicts, or philanderers, or pedophiles, had, at least in part, chosen to take on that life.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

By "pedophiles", we are speaking of those adults who are sexually attracted to children, even if they do not act on it. In that vein, I would ask why pedophilia is so especially awful that it would be bad form to empathize with their struggles, while we have no such stricture against empathy toward those who feel the desire to have sex with their secretary, their neighbor's wife, their own gender, the family dog, vegetables, blow-up dolls, and so forth.

If you knew a co-worker had consistent, recurring thoughts and desires to randomly kidnap people, slowly torture them to death, and cannibalize their corpses, but he never acted on them, would you likewise call that "Admirable"?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

What I am wondering is whether or not the teaching on pre-mortal existence includes the idea that we chose our lives before we entered mortality--that those who end up being alcoholic, or drug addicts, or philanderers, or pedophiles, had, at least in part, chosen to take on that life.

I can give you a lot of speculation and Mormon Lore on that, but nothing concrete.

[SpiritDragon]

2 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

What I am wondering is whether or not the teaching on pre-mortal existence includes the idea that we chose our lives before we entered mortality--that those who end up being alcoholic, or drug addicts, or philanderers, or pedophiles, had, at least in part, chosen to take on that life.

To my understanding there is little clearly spelled out doctrinally on this. Generally I think that people either look at these qualities as natural predisposition inherent to premortal intelligence - or simply a byproduct of the Fall.