Non-Homeschooled Kids

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You can both be lazy and still love your kids though, right?

Hey!   Don't use your logic to mess up my narrative!!

What about the ignorant, inbred lazy parents who send their kids to public school?  Or materialistic xenophobes who want society to become inbred socialists?  Uhmmm...

Edited June 29, 2016 by Guest

[NeuroTypical]

Something that rocks about homeschooling and teenagers: Mom and one girl usually stay up until after midnight, and get up whenever they want, usually around 10 or 11.  Or maybe 1pm.  And anyone who has a problem with that can just bite them.  

Such things are possible with homeschooling.

Edited June 29, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Hey!   Don't use your logic to mess up my narrative!!

Well, I was thinking about this thread a bit on a drive to the store, actually, and I was thinking how a broader problem I see with the idea of not homeschooling in cases where it might be a better choice is likely more related to the lazy parenting thing than loving kids or not. I joked with my wife about it that our solution if our kids think they're more loved is to tell them that other's parents love their kids, they're just lazy! Haha.

But on a serious note, I do think that the great problem in parenting is very rarely because parents don't love their kids, but more because they don't want to be bothered on whatever level to deal with whatever hassle. That remains true, I believe, whether it be parents who don't discipline their kids, don't teach their kids, or ship their kids off to wherever and whoever in whatever situation rather than taking the burden upon themselves.

Obviously there has to be balance to that though. No one can deal with everything, and to presume that only you as a parent have all the best answers/guidance for you children in every single thing is arrogant and ridiculous.

But the point remains...lazy parenting is an epidemic, if not THE epidemic that is destroying the world.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

Do the other parents know that their children feel this way?

The sister that spoke to Mrs. Carb is a sister who does not homeschool.  So, at least one parent does.

[Guest MormonGator]

18 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The sister that spoke to Mrs. Carb is a sister who does not homeschool.  So, at least one parent does.

Carb, if one of your kids was a superior athlete :: cough cough :: like Tim Tebow (Gator shout out!) would you have an issue letting them play sports-but not enroll-at the local high school? Not an argument, just asking. 

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Carb, if one of your kids was a superior athlete :: cough cough :: like Tim Tebow (Gator shout out!) would you have an issue letting them play sports-but not enroll-at the local high school? Not an argument, just asking. 

If they want to do something that we cannot offer them at home, like organized sports, we'd look at the options available and pick the best option and best fit for our needs and wants.

Understand that to us, homeschool is a guiding principle.  It is not a religious observance.  We do not "force" our kids into homeschooling.  Instead, I "threaten" to put them in public school if they don't do their studies and they just straighten right up.

 

[NeuroTypical]

Yep - on two occasions, my wife has contacted me with instructions to go find them a school.  I proceeded to get some options and set some appointments.  When the kids saw that mom and dad were actually going to go through with it, whatever resistance or refusing they were doing went away.   I think it had something to do with math or handwriting or something.  

Interesting thing: My wife often asks our kids if they want to go to school.  The answer has always been no.  Until older daughter reached high school age, and we found a hybrid online/campus learning thing being offered one school district over.  Daughter decided to give it a try, and that's what she'll be doing in a few months.

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

They should. I'm sure your kids are all fantastic and you are a great mom/teacher/etc. 

Taking your kids out of the mix, do you know any other homeschooling families?

Yep.  Several kids in my ward are home schooled.  Great kids.

Oh, I forgot to mention, Florida is the home of the Tim Tebow Bill.  This does not only apply to homeschooled kids, they also apply to School Choice kids.  For example, my son is in an Arts School.  When we toured the facility, the Phys Ed Coach showed us their track (the school bus circle) and said, "this is an Arts School."  Hah hah.  But, it doesn't matter because my kid can join the neighborhood school's athletic program if he wants.  This is great for kids (homeschooled or not) who have athletic ability that can try to develop it for a college scholarship.

Edited June 29, 2016 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yep.  Several kids in my ward are home schooled.  Great kids.

Oh, I forgot to mention, Florida is the home of the Tim Tebow Bill.  This does not only apply to homeschooled kids, they also apply to School Choice kids.  For example, my son is in an Arts School.  When we toured the facility, the Phys Ed Coach showed us their track (the school bus circle) and said, "this is an Arts School."  Hah hah.  But, it doesn't matter because my kid can join the neighborhood school's athletic program if he wants.  This is great for kids who have athletic ability that can try to develop it for a college scholarship.

I'm guessing a large majority of homeschooled parents at least know of the Tebow bill. That's who I was hinting at :-) 

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I'm guessing a large majority of homeschooled parents at least know of the Tebow bill. That's who I was hinting at :-) 

Right.  I think it's in 30+ States now or thereabouts.

The cool thing about Florida though is it goes one step further.  They include the School Choice kids who may have chosen a school that doesn't offer an athletic program.  It just makes the choice a little bit easier for athletes, so they don't get bogged down in neighborhood schools that may not be a good fit for them.

[The Folk Prophet]

Anything I can do to keep my kids out of athletics is on the table for consideration.

Well...okay...not "anything".

[Backroads]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Something that rocks about homeschooling and teenagers: Mom and one girl usually stay up until after midnight, and get up whenever they want, usually around 10 or 11.  Or maybe 1pm.  And anyone who has a problem with that can just bite them.  

Such things are possible with homeschooling.

I shudder at this. I can't sleep past 7. I just can't. I feel the entire day is wasted. It's depressing. To each their own, but, wow, I got the creepy crawlies just thinking about sleeping in so late. 

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Backroads said:

I shudder at this. I can't sleep past 7. I just can't. I feel the entire day is wasted. It's depressing. To each their own, but, wow, I got the creepy crawlies just thinking about sleeping in so late. 

Yeah... and might not be too great trying to change as adults having to wake up for a work day.

My mother has always said - early to bed early to rise makes a man healthy wealthy and wise.  One of the things that made me so ecstatic on my high school graduation is not having to wake up at 6am anymore!  College, after all, is a "choose your courses" environment!  Yeay!  But then... I ended up in the US where I had to work graveyard to support myself and go to school at the same time... Go to bed at 3pm, wake up at 11pm... ugh ugh ugh!  And then now I live in Eastern Time Zone but work the European Time Zone... ugh ugh ugh!

[mirkwood]

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

 A primary teacher expressed to Mrs. Carb that the children who are not homeschooled get the impression that because they are not homeschooled, their parents don't love them.  

How in the world did this even come up from primary kids?

[mirkwood]

5 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

When we started homeschooling a decade ago, 

I didn't know you were homeschoolers....hurries over to facebook and unfriends...

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mirkwood said:

How in the world did this even come up from primary kids?

I don't really know.  I'm just reporting what I heard.

[NeuroTypical]

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Yeah... and might not be too great trying to change as adults having to wake up for a work day.

Well, see, here's the deal.  We're not raising kids to fit into a bell-curve of what's expected of them.  We're raising kids to be productive, capable, moral contributors to society.  And the world absolutely needs folks like that working evening or night shifts at pharmacies and labs and zoos and law enforcement and plumbing/electrical disaster companies and vet clinics and ER rooms and night class teachers and a thousand other legitimate, noble, challenging, lucrative professions.

I mean, this is Mamma's call.  And Mamma sees little value in forcing a kid to go to bed early out of fear of some possible future that requires them to go to bed earlier.  Especially when half the house doesn't want to.

Edited June 30, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[anatess2]

11 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, see, here's the deal.  We're not raising kids to fit into a bell-curve of what's expected of them.  We're raising kids to be productive, capable, moral contributors to society.  And the world absolutely needs folks like that working evening or night shifts at pharmacies and labs and zoos and law enforcement and plumbing/electrical disaster companies and vet clinics and ER rooms and night class teachers and a thousand other legitimate, noble, challenging, lucrative professions.

I mean, this is Mamma's call.  And Mamma sees little value in forcing a kid to go to bed early out of fear of some possible future that requires them to go to bed earlier.  Especially when half the house doesn't want to.

I get this.

In my house, my method is... kids control their bedtimes, I control their wake-up times.  When I say breakfast is at 7am, I don't care if you decided to go to bed at 6am, you're waking up.  The day doesn't wait for kids to figure out when they want to join in.

[Blackmarch]

Just now, Carborendum said:

I've never heard of this happening anywhere.  But it is interesting.

We live in a ward where over 50% of the kids are homeschooled.  A primary teacher expressed to Mrs. Carb that the children who are not homeschooled get the impression that because they are not homeschooled, their parents don't love them.  I don't know what to say about that.

I do know that we tell our children that because we care about their up-bringing that we're not going to let a stranger raise them in a school.  Maybe this got transferred and possibly magnified to the non-homeschooled children.

Is this something we're supposed to feel guilty about or something?  Am I making more out of this than it is?  Should something be done about this?

Thoughts?

how unique. Yes that's a concern you probably don't wan tto merely brush off.... Me I'd probably say that normal school is very traditional, and something along the lines that homeschooling a significant investment, one that some people can't make... it's also an option that isn't very well known in the public in general, beyond that people do it.

[LeSellers]

2 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

homeschooling … is also an option that isn't very well known in the public in general, beyond that people do it.

And even many of those who do it take a very long time to understand what it is and what it isn't.

Most people who think of Family-Centered Education (aka, but misleadingly, "homeschooling") think it's just "school at home". That's not the case, at least not in the idea situation.

F-CEd is about making the child responsible for his learnings. A great model (albeit institutional) is the Sudbury Valley School. The students choose what they'll learn, who'll "teach" them, and to what depth.

There are no reading classes, but every child learns to read. There are no math classes, but every child can cypher before he leaves. There are no classes of any kind, but more than 70% of the students go on to college. If a child wants to study astronomy, he finds a couple of others and they find a facilitator. Often this adult (or another student) doesn't know, either, but they research and study together, and, when they're all satisfied that they know enough (for the moment), they stop and go on to something else, maybe coming back to astronomy later.

These children don't learn what someone else wants them to learn. They don't study because there is a test. They don't go to school because there's a law saying they must, but because they want to be there. (That was the primary reason I left grtf-welfare schools before becoming a full-fledged teacher: the cognitive dissonance of teaching we live in a free country, but we all knew if the children weren't in their assigned classrooms, they'd go to jail, they or their parents.)

When a child is in charge of his learnings, he, oddly enough, wants to learn. And teaching is a true joy. He also doesn't learn to hate "learning", as is almost always the case in a grtf-welfare school.

Lehi

Edited June 30, 2016 by LeSellers

[Vort]

32 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Family-Centered Education (aka, but misleadingly, "homeschooling")

I have never heard the term "family-centered education", but I like it. It captures the essence of homeschooling.

[LeSellers]

19 minutes ago, Vort said:

I have never heard the term "family-centered education", but I like it. It captures the essence of homeschooling.

That's why I coined the term. "Homeschooling" lends itself to misunderstanding both the goal and the methods.

Lehi

Edited June 30, 2016 by LeSellers

[anatess2]

52 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

And even many of those who do it take a very long time to understand what it is and what it isn't.

Most people who think of Family-Centered Education (aka, but misleadingly, "homeschooling") think it's just "school at home". That's not the case, at least not in the idea situation.

F-CEd is about making the child responsible for his learnings. A great model (albeit institutional) is the Sudburry Valley School. The students choose what they'll learn who'll "teach" them, and to what depth.

There are no reading classes, but every child learns to read. There are no math classes, but every child can cypher before he leaves. There are no classes of any kind, but more than 70% of the students go on to college. If a child wants to study astronomy, he finds a couple of others and they find a facilitator. Often this adult (or another student) doesn't know, either, but they research and study together, and, when they're all satisfied that they know enough (for the moment), they stop and go on to something else.

These children don't learn what someone else wants them to learn. They don't study because there is a test. They don't go to school because there's a law saying they must, but because they want to be there. (That was the primary reason I left grtf-welfare schools as a teacher: the cognitive dissonance of teaching we live in a free country, but we all knew if the children weren't in their assigned classrooms, they'd go to jail, they or their parents.)

When a child is in charge of his learnings, he, oddly enough, wants to learn. And teaching is a true joy. He also doesn't learn to hate "learning", as is almost always the case in a grtf-welfare school.

Lehi

My kid went to a Montessori.  Interestingly, it was a Public School.  The way you described is how he learned.   There are no classes, there are no teachers, there are no tests (aside from the State mandated assessment towards the end of the school year), no homework, multi-age levels etc... rather, there are "toys" and stuff that are designed to develop a certain skillset, the "teachers" are the facilitators in addition to the kids... basically, you stay with the class for 3 years - you progress from an observer, to a participant, to a teacher for each activity.  You decide which activity you want to work on including field trips and outdoor work (each classroom has gardens and critters that the kids take care of) and stuff.  By the end of 3 years, it is expected that you've made it to teacher for all the activities available in the class curricula and you move to a higher-learning class for another 3 years (different sets of "toys").  It was a little tricky because there are State requirements that a student has to meet by the end of the school year for his grade level.  But there are no "real" grade levels in the Montessori.  So it was left up to the parents to fill the gap if the kid hasn't met the grade level requirement at the end of the year for his age.  What I found, though, is that it is rare for a parent to have to do anything at the end of the year - all the kids in my son's classes have all exceeded grade level requirements just like what the principal promised me when I was investigating the school.

Edited June 30, 2016 by anatess2

[NeuroTypical]

I'm glad you've got something working for you, LeSellers.  But I would like to add a brief asterisk to your post. Hopefully that's ok.  

* LeSellers doesn't speak for all homeschoolers.  Your goals, experiences, and results may vary.

I've noticed "the ideal situation" can look quite differently for various families.  For example, the LM parents aren't really interested in "making the child responsible for his learnings"  Our kids have say over what and how they learn, but only to a certain extent.   We've absolutely availed ourselves of classroom-based supplementary stuff from school districts and private coops.  We don't care much about tests, but sometimes we do prep for one - the county Meat Quality Assurance test being one example.  (One daughter sells heritage breed turkeys for $10/lb.)  

Not everything they do/learn/discover is family-centered.  We gave up on the notion/desire to be the only door through which experiences and information flow, early on in the process.  For example, my 10 yr old basically taught herself to type and spell under the radar, when we weren't really paying attention.  Her goal was to be able to interact with the other kids in an online role-playing group chat thing run by the National Geographic folks.   

Living in CO, we do indeed expose them to subjects because there's a law saying we must, and we answer to the state at scheduled intervals.  Our kiddos do have say in what/when/how they learn to an extent, but there's not so much correlation between choice and "want" as I guess you're observing.  Sometimes my wife finds teaching a true joy, sometimes it's painful drudgery with a well-understood and agreed-to goal.  We have said stuff like "Of course this sucks, but if you stick to it and finish, you'll be able to [x,y,z]."  

Again, LeSellers sounds like you've got something good going on, and more power to ya.  Just there's a lot of areas where it doesn't really resemble what we're doing.

Edited June 30, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[anatess2]

30 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Again, LeSellers sounds like you've got something good going on, and more power to ya.  Just there's a lot of areas where it doesn't really resemble what we're doing.

Yes.  You are correct.  One family in our ward who is home schooling her 5 children are strictly following a different method that follows a specific curriculum that she bought from some organization.

I do like LeSeller's idea of kid-run learning.  We achieve this set-up though our Public School instead of a home school.  So, it's not unique to home schools only.

Edited June 30, 2016 by anatess2