Is God still in the lives of atheists even though they have rejected Him?

[carlimac]

When we as believers have problems in our lives we almost immediately turn to prayer and ask for help from our Heavenly Father. We also believe that Jesus can soothe our souls and help us resolve our issues through His atonement.  And when our issues are solved, hopefully we then thank our heavenly Father for His help. 

So I assume that atheists don't turn to God with their problems. But I also assume that they don't often just hang onto their hardships their whole lives, either. Unemployment comes to an end, Relationships have their downs but their ups, too. Illnesses are cured and sticky problems in life are done away with for them, perhaps at about the same rate as for believers.

So do you think that it's the influence of God that is helping them, despite their rejection of Him? Or is it simply mind over matter or that they develop other ways of coping mentally and emotionally with their issues?

If we attribute all our blessings to deity, how do we account for successes (blessings) for those who don't believe?  They obviously don't ask for those blessings...from God anyway. 

Can anyone find scriptures to help with this question?

[Rhoades]

39 minutes ago, carlimac said:

So do you think that it's the influence of God that is helping them, despite their rejection of Him? Or is it simply mind over matter or that they develop other ways of coping mentally and emotionally with their issues?

If we attribute all our blessings to deity, how do we account for successes (blessings) for those who don't believe?  They obviously don't ask for those blessings...from God anyway. 

Can anyone find scriptures to help with this question?

 

Remember that mortal life isn't the total of our existence.  Everyone on earth at one time accepted God.  And, I'm sure everyone prayed and pleaded for his help to some degree.  Some people just aren't aware of this because they have forgotten.  All blessings from God are because of obedience.  Some of the obedience was before this life.

On a related note, keep in mind that while on earth everyone rejects him to some degree.  

 

Here are some scriptures related to your questions.

D&C 130:20-21

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20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

 

Matthew 5:44-45

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44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

Galatians 6:7

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...  for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

 

I wish I could add more scriptures and provide commentary explaining how they answer your questions, but I'm short on time.  Maybe you'll learn some things pondering these or maybe someone else will provide good answers before I get back to it.

One other thing to remember -- a heart changed and intelligence gained is much more valuable than any short term prosperity we experience.

[Blackmarch]

4 hours ago, carlimac said:

When we as believers have problems in our lives we almost immediately turn to prayer and ask for help from our Heavenly Father. We also believe that Jesus can soothe our souls and help us resolve our issues through His atonement.  And when our issues are solved, hopefully we then thank our heavenly Father for His help. 

So I assume that atheists don't turn to God with their problems. But I also assume that they don't often just hang onto their hardships their whole lives, either. Unemployment comes to an end, Relationships have their downs but their ups, too. Illnesses are cured and sticky problems in life are done away with for them, perhaps at about the same rate as for believers.

So do you think that it's the influence of God that is helping them, despite their rejection of Him? Or is it simply mind over matter or that they develop other ways of coping mentally and emotionally with their issues?

If we attribute all our blessings to deity, how do we account for successes (blessings) for those who don't believe?  They obviously don't ask for those blessings...from God anyway. 

Can anyone find scriptures to help with this question?

Well we are to acknowledge his hand in all things... However the extent thereof i have no idea. Athiesm has a whole spectrum from wishful/positive agnosticism to extreme anti religion. The spirit will strive with man where ever it can do so. I think often enough a lot of the succsess comes from the consequence of actions.

[Traveler]

The spirit of Christ is given to all mankind that participate in mortality.  Everyone has a "knowledge" of good and evil.  This gift of the spirit of Christ is given and it is not necessary that a person pray in order to receive guidance through the gift of the spirit of Christ.  We are told that prayer will help us spiritually become in tune with the spirit of Christ and other spiritual gifts to guide us in mortality.  But prayer is not an end in and of itself but I believe prayer is rather a process to assist and help us become spiritually in tune.

I would put forth that there is little difference in having no belief in G-d as opposed to false beliefs in G-d and that our view of G-d is expressed not so much in words we speak or claims we make but in our actions and behavior.  That the #1 most important behavior in spiritually putting us properly in tune with G-d is our love, compassion and treatment of our fellow man.

We have learned by sad experience that false beliefs in G-d is among the greatest engines of hate and oppression of mankind – even more so than no belief at all in the false attributes of G-d.  Thus it is my observation that false notions of the attributes of G-d has been more misleading and deceiving of spiritual influences than what we currently call an atheists.

I would point out that the first effort by a Christian congregation or society to protect their fellow mankind from oppression (murder and loss of property) for their different belief in attributes of G-d outside of the Traditional Christian notion of the Trinity was 1829.  It was 1649 before different congregations or societies of Traditional Christians would even protect each other.

It is my personal belief that an individual as well as a society that is motivated by compassion and love of their fellow man is of greater import in order to be influenced by G-d than those that participate in the ritual of prayer.

 

The Traveler

 

[NeedleinA]

15 hours ago, carlimac said:

When we as believers have problems in our lives we almost immediately turn to prayer and ask for help from our Heavenly Father. We also believe that Jesus can soothe our souls and help us resolve our issues through His atonement.  And when our issues are solved, hopefully we then thank our heavenly Father for His help. 

So I assume that atheists don't turn to God with their problems. But I also assume that they don't often just hang onto their hardships their whole lives, either. Unemployment comes to an end, Relationships have their downs but their ups, too. Illnesses are cured and sticky problems in life are done away with for them, perhaps at about the same rate as for believers.

So do you think that it's the influence of God that is helping them, despite their rejection of Him? Or is it simply mind over matter or that they develop other ways of coping mentally and emotionally with their issues?

If we attribute all our blessings to deity, how do we account for successes (blessings) for those who don't believe?  They obviously don't ask for those blessings...from God anyway. 

Can anyone find scriptures to help with this question?

Maybe @Godless might chime in and share his thoughts too.

[Rhoades]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

It is my personal belief that an individual as well as a society that is motivated by compassion and love of their fellow man is of greater import in order to be influenced by G-d than those that participate in the ritual of prayer.

 

The Traveler

 

Amen!

 

1 Corinthians 13:13

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13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Moroni 7:46-47

Quote

... Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail— But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever ...

 

After reading the response by @Traveler I think a sentence I wrote in an earlier response could be improved to: 

"On a related note, keep in mind that while on earth everyone rejects and accepts him to some degree."

Edited July 11, 2016 by Rhoades

[Guest Godless]

2 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Maybe @Godless might chime in and share his thoughts too.

It's difficult to contribute to a discussion when I don't accept a key part of the premise, which is that there is a higher power who occasionally intervenes in and directs our daily lives. I feel no need to find a supernatural explanation when something good happens to me, nor the need to blame something intangible when something bad happens to me. Everything that happens to me is the result of a decision I make, a decision someone else makes, or an act of nature. There's nothing outside of those three factors that controls my destiny. 

[tesuji]

We are all children of God, so it's logical that he loves and helps us all as much as we will let him. Atheists would be no different, especially if they are obeying the measure of goodness and light they have so far received.

I fault no thinking, agnostic person for looking around at the world, and at all the false religions, and deciding there is no God and that religion is fiction. That is the most logical conclusion, if you do not understand true Christianity or Mormonism (most people don't understand).

However, if they continue to seek the light, and try to obey what light they understand, I believe God will lead them back to him. At that point, if they are humble enough, they will acknowledge the reality that God exists. Maybe not in this life.

I do believe there are atheists who live more "Christian" lives than some Christians are. You can follow Jesus without realizing it, if you are following the light.

Edited July 11, 2016 by tesuji

[Traveler]

49 minutes ago, Godless said:

It's difficult to contribute to a discussion when I don't accept a key part of the premise, which is that there is a higher power who occasionally intervenes in and directs our daily lives. I feel no need to find a supernatural explanation when something good happens to me, nor the need to blame something intangible when something bad happens to me. Everything that happens to me is the result of a decision I make, a decision someone else makes, or an act of nature. There's nothing outside of those three factors that controls my destiny. 

Again we exchange -   As a scientist and engineer in the field of manufacturing automation, robotics and artificial intelligence - I would submit that intelligence we do not understand would seem supernatural even if there is nothing supernatural about it.  If you believe in evolution and that intelligence has involved and is continuing to involve in various lifeforms - I submit that it is also possible for intelligence to evolve in other forms other than the life forms we identify on this tiny planet in this obscure solar system of this milky way galaxy that is just an obscure part of one of unknown numbers of super clusters. We have also proven that any event that can happen can be duplicated (engineered to happen) with sufficient intelligence that can analyze the necessary parameters.

I submit that to assume that evolving intelligence is not obligated of its intelligence to be associated to or concern with justice - contradicts what you have posted to me on another thread and implies that indeed there are more parameters logically involved in what happens to you than you are considering from your above statement.  I think you are making assumptions about G-d (creation and justice) intelligence that is highly biased and irrational.  I make my assumption based on a preponderance of empirical evidence and statistical probability of so much more than you seem willing to consider.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

The only person on earth who was without God's presence was Jesus on the cross when He said "Father, why have you forsaken me."

[LeSellers]

11 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

The only person on earth who was without God's presence was Jesus on the cross when He said "Father, why have you forsaken me."

I submit that Satan is without His presence. Satan and the third part of our former brothers and sisters who divorced themselves from the family of God.

Lehi

[Guest]

1 hour ago, LeSellers said:

I submit that Satan is without His presence. Satan and the third part of our former brothers and sisters who divorced themselves from the family of God.

Lehi

Agreed.

[Anddenex]

The simple answer is "yes" God blesses all of his children as the rain falls on the just and the unjust. The sun shines on the just and the unjust. All we have are blessings from God, whether a man/woman rejects deity doesn't matter. He blesses them, which is also why in the end all will exclaim "They ways are just" even atheists, because they will then see his hand throughout their lives, where he blessed them, where he sought after them, and still they rejected him.

An increase of intelligence is a gift from God. If an atheist has a child, that child is a gift from God. Whether or not, they claim it, reject it, matters very little. He blesses them within the bounds of predicated laws as already mentioned, and what we sow we reap, and sometimes we sow and don't reap.

[Guest Godless]

 

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

I submit that to assume that evolving intelligence is not obligated of its intelligence to be associated to or concern with justice - contradicts what you have posted to me on another thread and implies that indeed there are more parameters logically involved in what happens to you than you are considering from your above statement. 

I disagree. The idea of evolving intelligence is driven by scientific theory, and thus falls under "acts of nature". We may have different ideas of how far intelligence has evolved, but this evolution is ultimately still driven by natural forces. Principles of justice and morality are a combination of this and a series of choices. On some cognitive level, we choose what we believe is right and wrong. In many cases, society guides these choices for us. Social mores are the result of collective choices based on our collective intelligence. So the way I see it, my claims in this thread and the other one are not incompatible, though I'll fully admit that my earlier post in this thread was a bit rushed and begged for clarification.

 

[Traveler]

Actually as an expert in industrial artificial intelligence – I find that much of what we are learning concerning “intelligent” responses is more driven by discovery than theory.   As I have posted on several different threads – just in the last 20 years we have discovered that 95% of what is taking place in the universe is incompatible to what we have understood as “acts of nature” or if you will - physics.  Scientifically we call what we cannot explain, Dark Matter, Dark Energy and more recently Dark Radiation all of which just 100 years ago would have been labeled as fantastic unproven ridiculous theory or even supernatural occurrences. 

As we advance the science of artificial intelligence – we are finding applications of intelligence to things that are associated to life but itself is not living as we have defined life.  An example is in evolution.  We find that evolution not only has taken place with what we call living organisms but we find signs of intelligence within the evolution of solar systems, galaxies and what we have recently discovered and call superclusters. 

But hold on – there is more.  We are now starting to directly contribute to evolutionary feedback.  We are evolving intelligence to intelligently manipulate future generations of actual living things – even ourselves.  Being able to initiate and control such things is the very definition of G-d.  In essence what you are happy to explain the unexplainable as “acts of nature” someone else is happy to explain as “acts of G-d”.  

If there is any possibility of justice then there must, by definition be intelligence driving evolution.  If there is no intelligence then there is no justice – theoretical or otherwise.  If intelligence is possible then because, by definition, intelligence make choices and changes results; then the enviable change is intelligence causing change.  By definition evolution is change thus the only possibility of evolution is to control change or if you will – control evolution that is by it very definition – change.   It is as I posted before –a false misleading superstition not just concerning justice – but intelligence as well because if the “natural” course was never actually changed by something intelligent –   no choices were actually ever made.  As with the argument – “I think therefor I am”.   So is it – if an intelligent choice is ever initiated therefor an intelligent G-d is initiated.  Think about it – there is no other logical conclusion given that change (evolution) is possible.  If intelligence can exist then we must assume that all change is the result of intelligence - becauses if intelligence was not involved in the change - by the very defination of intelligence - learning will eventually take place and eventually all change will be by the existance of intelligence - because the result of intelligence, by defination, is the power to learn and cause change.  It is the same logic of mathematical induction - if it happens once than unless proven otherwise to have limit then it must include all change - and I have yet to encounter any logic that says there is or must be a limit to intelligence.

 

The Traveler

 

[Edspringer]

On 11/07/2016 at 9:57 PM, carlimac said:

When we as believers have problems in our lives we almost immediately turn to prayer and ask for help from our Heavenly Father. We also believe that Jesus can soothe our souls and help us resolve our issues through His atonement.  And when our issues are solved, hopefully we then thank our heavenly Father for His help. 

So I assume that atheists don't turn to God with their problems. But I also assume that they don't often just hang onto their hardships their whole lives, either. Unemployment comes to an end, Relationships have their downs but their ups, too. Illnesses are cured and sticky problems in life are done away with for them, perhaps at about the same rate as for believers.

So do you think that it's the influence of God that is helping them, despite their rejection of Him? Or is it simply mind over matter or that they develop other ways of coping mentally and emotionally with their issues?

If we attribute all our blessings to deity, how do we account for successes (blessings) for those who don't believe?  They obviously don't ask for those blessings...from God anyway. 

Can anyone find scriptures to help with this question?

I remember at least two episodes in scripture (both in the Book of Mormon) that may illustrate your doubt:

Zeezrom (Alma 11 to 13)

Korihor (Alma 30)

These two guys were skeptical about the existence of God. Both made questions to raise doubt in the hearts of those who preached to them (in both cases, the prophet Alma was involved, not by chance). Now, what was the turning point for them? One gave heed to the word of God and the other didn’t. Zeezrom learned about the Atonement and repented and was redeemed. Korihor went ‘til the edge of unbelief and tempted God asking for a sign of His existence. Ultimately he became dumb and died being run upon. They had similar backgrounds of belief. None of them believed in God, and sought to destroy His work among men. What actually made the difference was the use of their agency to believe or to tempt God; one decided to exercise faith in Christ and the other denied Him openly.

So, I believe the same happens today with those who say they believe in God and in His Christ and those who say there is no God. Well, those who don’t believe in God may act like that maybe because they haven’t been taught about the true and living God and His eternal love for His children and about the Atoning Sacrifice of His Beloved Son Jesus Christ. There are those, like Korihor, who may be strongly influenced by Satan and, thus, deceived.

Answering your question: YES, God still love those who don’t believe in Him, mainly, in my opinion, because they don’t know Him well enough to love and trust Him.

Nevertheless, skepticism is something that even the Saints struggle with sometimes. 

 

Edited July 13, 2016 by Edspringer
misspelled words

[Guest Godless]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Actually as an expert in industrial artificial intelligence – I find that much of what we are learning concerning “intelligent” responses is more driven by discovery than theory.  

 

 

I'm no scientist, but it seems to me that most theories are sprung from and built upon by discovery of some sort. 

 

 

Quote

As I have posted on several different threads – just in the last 20 years we have discovered that 95% of what is taking place in the universe is incompatible to what we have understood as “acts of nature” or if you will - physics.  Scientifically we call what we cannot explain, Dark Matter, Dark Energy and more recently Dark Radiation all of which just 100 years ago would have been labeled as fantastic unproven ridiculous theory or even supernatural occurrences. 

 

This seems to be a common occurrence throughout the history of scientific discovery. The discovery of something that doesn't fit the current status quo of scientific theory does not negate the importance of scientific theory on the way we view the world we live in. Rather, it changes and remolds it. If this weren't the case, then we'd still be clinging to some very wrong ideas about our universe (heliocentrism, flat earth theory, etc). It's very likely that 20 years from now, we'll understand far more about dark matter/energy/radiation than we do now, possibly to the point that we start calling it something else. I'll admit that I haven't kept up with these new discoveries in astrophysics, but I'm excited to learn more and to see what other new discoveries this could lead to. 

 

 

Quote

We are now starting to directly contribute to evolutionary feedback.  We are evolving intelligence to intelligently manipulate future generations of actual living things – even ourselves.  Being able to initiate and control such things is the very definition of G-d.  In essence what you are happy to explain the unexplainable as “acts of nature” someone else is happy to explain as “acts of G-d”.  

And what happens when scientific discovery explains what was previously unexplainable, as has happened countless times throughout our history? The list of things that are explained as "acts of God" has shrunk considerably over the centuries, and will likely continue to shrink in the future. 

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by Godless
quotes gone wild

[Guest Godless]

Ugh, I would give my right foot to have the old forums back. 

 

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

If there is any possibility of justice then there must, by definition be intelligence driving evolution.  If there is no intelligence then there is no justice – theoretical or otherwise.  If intelligence is possible then because, by definition, intelligence make choices and changes results; then the enviable change is intelligence causing change.  By definition evolution is change thus the only possibility of evolution is to control change or if you will – control evolution that is by it very definition – change.   It is as I posted before –a false misleading superstition not just concerning justice – but intelligence as well because if the “natural” course was never actually changed by something intelligent –   no choices were actually ever made.  As with the argument – “I think therefor I am”.   So is it – if an intelligent choice is ever initiated therefor an intelligent G-d is initiated.  Think about it – there is no other logical conclusion given that change (evolution) is possible.  If intelligence can exist then we must assume that all change is the result of intelligence - becauses if intelligence was not involved in the change - by the very defination of intelligence - learning will eventually take place and eventually all change will be by the existance of intelligence - because the result of intelligence, by defination, is the power to learn and cause change.  It is the same logic of mathematical induction - if it happens once than unless proven otherwise to have limit then it must include all change - and I have yet to encounter any logic that says there is or must be a limit to intelligence.

 

The Traveler

 

Evolutionary change is driven by the biological laws of nature. Our understanding of these laws is imperfect, but sufficient enough to conclude that they can exist without the support of a deity (though to be fair, the laws of nature don't deliberately exclude the possibility of divine existence either). There is nothing random or coincidental about the evolutionary process, as skeptics are very fond of claiming. Nature demands change in order to further the survivability of its inhabitants. And yes, as a part of the natural world, we as intelligent humans have the ability to manipulate and redirect these changes within the confines of our knowledge and understanding of the natural world. However, these changes would still occur without us (and did for millions of years), albeit with different (but still logical) results. In a way, you could say that this gives attributes of intelligence to nature, but not in a way that demands the existence of something greater. 

[Traveler]

43 minutes ago, Godless said:

Ugh, I would give my right foot to have the old forums back. 

 

Evolutionary change is driven by the biological laws of nature. Our understanding of these laws is imperfect, but sufficient enough to conclude that they can exist without the support of a deity (though to be fair, the laws of nature don't deliberately exclude the possibility of divine existence either). There is nothing random or coincidental about the evolutionary process, as skeptics are very fond of claiming. Nature demands change in order to further the survivability of its inhabitants. And yes, as a part of the natural world, we as intelligent humans have the ability to manipulate and redirect these changes within the confines of our knowledge and understanding of the natural world. However, these changes would still occur without us (and did for millions of years), albeit with different (but still logical) results. In a way, you could say that this gives attributes of intelligence to nature, but not in a way that demands the existence of something greater. 

 

You have missed the point – if something can happen then intelligence can evolve to cause it to happen. Plus we have also learned that intelligence can evolve that can initiate changes that have never ever taken place before.  Since this has been proven over and over again on a micro scale – then (by the proof of Chaos Theory and mathematical fractal models) it must be assumed that intelligence is behind what happens unless there is absolute proof there is not.  

 

The Traveler

[carlimac]

Back to the OP.  The reason I ask this is because my husband and I have been working on a problem having to do with his employment (where and what job) for what seems like too long. We've been praying and fasting and going to the temple and trying to listen for promptings and impressions on how to solve it. Our current situation is simply not sustainable. But despite our searching the spiritual depths of the problem, and doing everything in our power to change the situation, It seems the heavens are closed on this. It's a pretty big issue that would have long-term serious impact on our family  and yet we don't seem to be getting any answers. I know these things can take time...but years? It's something we need resolved because frankly I'm starting to lose my sanity.  We thought we had the answers last year and followed through on our impressions, only to have it fail miserably due to the actions of basically one unmerciful person unrelated to us who sank the ship. 

So now I'm thinking, well if the answers we think we're getting are the wrong ones, and we're not getting any other "vibes", how do non-praying people handle their tough life questions? What instincts or thought processes do they use? Does the Lord guide them despite their unbelief and their obvious ingratitude toward HIm for any advantages or what believers call "blessings"? Or are they truly on their own as far as the heavens opening doors for them. Is the Lord telling us in His way that we just need to work this out on our own and that there are far more pressing problems for Him than where our family works and lives? 

I know my expectations lie within the 1st world purview. And we honestly lack for nothing materially (except a boat and some nice trips to the beach, and our kids lack a trampoline but that's because I'm a pediatric nurse.)  But given our education level, past work experience and level of responsibility at those jobs, something should have worked out by now. And at this point, the choices we make could potentially make or break it spiritually, socially and educationally for our remaining children at home. Plus what happens to us could potentially have long term impact on our extended family relationships, too. So what gives? In matters this important, why the silence from the heavens?

[LeSellers]

52 minutes ago, carlimac said:

my husband and I have been working on a problem having to do with his employment (where and what job) for what seems like too long. We've been praying and fasting and going to the temple and trying to listen for promptings and impressions on how to solve it.

May I suggest you contact your closest LDS Employment Resource Center? Has he set up an LDSJobs.org profile? If you'd like, PM me and I'll set him up with a WOWI^® account that may help you figure out what he should be looking at in terms of "what job".

Lehi

[carlimac]

50 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

May I suggest you contact your closest LDS Employment Resource Center? Has he set up an LDSJobs.org profile? If you'd like, PM me and I'll set him up with a WOWI^® account that may help you figure out what he should be looking at in terms of "what job".

Lehi

My husband is looking in the executive level of jobs. He actually has recruiters  that contact him. He's on linkedin and a number of other resources. He has applied for probably 30-40 jobs at least. He mostly just hears nothing back from them. He has landed interviews for jobs in at least 6 different states over the past several years. He was selected for one of those jobs but the working conditions were bad and he was concerned about the pay not being enough to move from a very low cost of living state to a much higher one. So he turned it down.   He's currently waiting to hear back on a job he interviewed for in Texas. He's had preliminary phone interviews on two more this week. but I guess with his track record for not getting the jobs, I've pretty much lost hope. 

The director job he was hired for 6 years ago has morphed and the budget has been carved to the point that the job is no longer recognizable. In fact when we left for a temporary assignment in Washington DC, the rug was ripped out from under him and ALL of his responsibility and authority to do this job were taken away even though he was promised he'd have it all back when we returned. It's been the weirdest, most unethical process I've ever seen. They compliment him on what he does and yet they turn around and give his job to someone else and tell him he needs to find other work to do within the company on his own. It really is a bizarre situation. And yet, he can't find another job anywhere. Part of the problem is that he's in his mid 50s. It feels to him and many of his same age friends that they being purposely edged out by the younger generation. He's never been unable to find a job before- never been unemployed except for about a month right after he graduated 29 years ago. We see the ship sinking and we're bailing as fast as we can and praying as we go, and yet there seems to be nothing we can do to stop the inevitable disaster. He's been told they can keep paying him for the odd jobs and projects he drums up through Sept. Then...who knows what? We've seen this coming gradually ( with a flaxen cord) for years now and we've done our very best to avoid a disaster but nothing is working.  And the heavens remain either so silent, or in my case my mind so anxious and running so many directions that I can't make sense of any of it.  

 

[tesuji]

carlimac,

Best of luck. I can imagine finding an executive level job in middle age could be hard. They say on average a job search takes a month for every 10K salary you're looking for. 

I know what it's like to feel like the heavens are silent while you keep desperately praying for a career answer. I believe sometimes the Lord tests and stretches us, while we keep looking for a new door to open. But I'm sure your husband has employable skills and will find something.

Maybe you need to think more out of the box, exploring other creative options? Just a notion. Go into teaching? Start your own business? Consult?

What is his dream career? Maybe now is a time to pursue that. 

Edited July 13, 2016 by tesuji

[Just_A_Guy]

One other scripture that I think is important--and I think this is another facet of what Traveler has already said--is Moroni 7:12:

Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

Ultimately, the only way to really "reject God" is to reject the good things He has created.  If you start gushing about a picture I have painted, not knowing I'm the artist--it doesn't really matter what you think of me.  You have still experienced a little bit of happiness because of me; and I'm still going to be pleased by your reaction and feel a sense of connection with you even as you deny my existence. 

Similarly, an atheist may reject the idea of God; but if she nonetheless pauses to enjoy the beauty of a sunset, or thrills in the knowledge of a new scientific discovery, or smiles at the laughter of a child, or is warmed by the sight of a charitable deed, or plans his or her life in accordance with the laws of cause and effect as (s)he understands them, or finds his or her life healed by visits with a mental health professional who employs dialectical behavioral therapy--the "atheist" is still accepting light and truth and goodness of which God is the true author.  Brigham Young's quote about Mormonism laying claim on all truth, wherever it may be found, seems applicable.

Theologically, I think we anticipate a coming day, atheists will finally "get" that nexus between all the good things in life that they have cleaved to, and that God who created it all.  That, I believe, is where "every knee shall bow", etc. comes into operation; and they will be welcomed into a kingdom of glory.  It is my opinion that those who can't reconcile themselves to God as the author of good things will ultimately reject those good things out of spite for God Himself--leaving them ultimately in a state of outer darkness where they are unreachable by God and where concepts like "love", "happiness", "knowledge", "peace", "rest", "friendship", "beauty", "innocence", and maybe even "natural law" (perhaps including even those laws of physics that hold matter together) don't even exist--a complete, utter form of chaos and destruction known to us as "perdition".

Edited July 13, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[carlimac]

1 hour ago, tesuji said:

carlimac,

Best of luck. I can imagine finding an executive level job in middle age could be hard. They say on average a job search takes a month for every 10K salary you're looking for. 

I know what it's like to feel like the heavens are silent while you keep desperately praying for a career answer. I believe sometimes the Lord tests and stretches us, while we keep looking for a new door to open. But I'm sure your husband has employable skills and will find something.

Maybe you need to think more out of the box, exploring other creative options? Just a notion. Go into teaching? Start your own business? Consult?

What is his dream career? Maybe now is a time to pursue that. 

Thank you. He actually has applied for two teaching jobs at a local university.  ( adjunct prof.)  But hasn't heard anything from them.  He's a great teacher! He's also read a dozen books with the theme of "What Am I Good At?" or "What do I want to be when I grow up?"(for grown ups in a career crisis).   He even purchased a web-domain to do consulting if nothing shows up soon. But this is one man who is very risk adverse. He will not step off this sinking ship until another ship or at least a very sturdy lifeboat comes along. I'm also trying ( albeit reluctantly) to renew a lapsed RN license of 24 years so that I can help if necessary. THAT is not easy with this even older-than-her-husband middle aged brain!  I'm seriously afraid I'd inadvertently kill someone if I went back to work in the hospital.  I have so many "senior moments" these days that I'm dangerous. As well as half deaf. I really shouldn't be doing any work where life is at stake. 

 

I can't say the doors to heaven are completely locked shut.  I have to admit two impressions (if I can trust them to be such. I'm a little leary after our last escapade.) 1- I should really get my license back. (  I'd rather not but...)  And 2- Family relationships are more important than going on another far away, remote adventure for work.  That means things would have to work out in one of two locations. And neither are a sure thing at this point.  And either one would require sacrifice on the part of someone in the family. On the other hand, the most promising looking job would take us to a state that is probably #1 on my list of places I don't want to live. 

So yes, we're getting some heavenly instruction. But it certainly isn't making a lot of sense.  I do still wonder if atheists have the whole thinking process a little simpler. I wouldn't ever want to take the risk to find that out by rejecting God. But I'd at least know my decisions are my own and I wouldn't have to try to figure out nebulous messages that aren't quite coming in clear or just don't seem logical.  If I make the right choice I can take all the credit. If I make the wrong choice, it's all on me and I don't have to be mad at deity for either not making it clear enough or mad at myself for not being righteous enough to get the  correct message. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2016 by carlimac