Is post mortal death an option?

[askandanswer]

I can imagine a resurrected being, in the telestial kingdom or in outer darkness, being unhappy at the thought of facing an eternity of damnation, whereby their prospects for progress and their ability to meet with their loved ones in higher kingdoms are eternally limited. In such a hopeless and unhappy situation, such a being might decide that there is no point in continuing their existence. This does not seem like an unrealistic scenario given how frequently it happens here and now. But even if it is unrealistic, or unlikely, does that being then the choice, or the ability, to end their unhappiness by ending their existence? If they can end their existence and commit suicide, would that rob justice because they have escaped their eternal punishment? If they can’t end their existence, and are forced to continue living against their will, is that denying them one of the most important choices provided by free agency – the right to choose whether to live or not? Who wins – justice or agency? The church teaches that after this life, there will be no more death and that the body and spirit will be eternally joined together. If that is true, then it would seem that a resurrected being would not have the ability to choose to end their eternal existence. Perhaps agency loses out to justice. Or perhaps, when formulating the teaching that there will be no death after this life, the formulators or promulgators of that teaching did not give any consideration to the possibility of post mortal suicide.

I don’t have a particular position on this question and I’m not saying that I believe or disbelieve any of the speculation or assumptions contained in the above question. I also don’t see a discussion of this question as resulting in any immediate, practical outcomes, or any direct outcomes that are likely to have any impact on how we should be living our daily lives. However, I think there is a reasonable possibility that a good discussion of this question could lead to a greater understanding of God, and His laws and operations, and that would certainly be a good thing.

[Guest]

The Telestial Kingdom is glorious beyond all understanding though and all of us who saw it would rather be there than here on earth. Outer Darkness is a mental state not a physical pain place so I do have compassion for those who would want that misery and guilt to end any way possible.

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

I can imagine a resurrected being, in the telestial kingdom or in outer darkness, being unhappy at the thought of facing an eternity of damnation

In a previous existence, we have a model of just such beings, albeit not immortal: they're eternally premortal. Satan and the third part of our former brothers and sisters are damned eternally, and they hate their non-tangible existence. However, they cannot "die" (whatever that might mean to a pre-mortal being).

As for which will win, justice is always the premiere player, and her demands must be met. However, as I read the scriptures, Christ's mercy or the payment by the individual coupled with whatever part of mercy must apply to fill the gap means that justice no longer has any claim on the person. The reason he is not in the Celestial Kingdom is not because justice has not been satisfied, it's because he did not become a Celestial being (or prepare to become one through the mercy of Christ) and cannot inhabit the Celestial Kingdom for lack of his preparedness: this life is the time to prepare.

It is my firm belief that each of us, including Satan and Judas Iscariot, Hitler and Mao, will end up, and, in fact, even start out here (if they made it) in a situation that is best for the individual. That is, we are where we are, and will be where we will be, in that place that will make us the happiest.

Lehi

[NightSG]

4 hours ago, LeSellers said:

It is my firm belief that each of us, including Satan and Judas Iscariot, Hitler and Mao, will end up, and, in fact, even start out here (if they made it) in a situation that is best for the individual. That is, we are where we are, and will be where we will be, in that place that will make us the happiest.

But what about pigs?

 

I mean, if it's so wonderful there, there must be bacon there, and that's generally not terribly pleasant for the pig.  It would have to be agony for a pig that can't die.  Or do they like being dismantled, smoked and fried there?

Edited August 7, 2016 by NightSG

[askandanswer]

8 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

The Telestial Kingdom is glorious beyond all understanding though and all of us who saw it would rather be there than here on earth. Outer Darkness is a mental state not a physical pain place so I do have compassion for those who would want that misery and guilt to end any way possible.

Its still a place where progress is damned, there is no hope for improvement, and where there will be no access to loved ones in higher kingdoms. That might sound like the happiest and most glorious place for some, but its not hard to imagine that there might be others who are not happy with those conditions and would prefer to remove themselves from such conditions by any way that they can. Will they have that choice or will their agency on that matter be denied?

[askandanswer]

5 hours ago, NightSG said:

But what about pigs?

 

I mean, if it's so wonderful there, there must be bacon there, and that's generally not terribly pleasant for the pig.  It would have to be agony for a pig that can't die.  Or do they like being dismantled, smoked and fried there?

NightSG, you are clearly being deficient in your scripture study, or maybe you are just being a little forgetful of what you already know. Remember Alma 40:23? 

The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.

Now what Alma didn't write, because he got distracted when his wife asked him to take out the trash, is that pigs, when in their proper and perfect frame, actually find happiness in being dismantled, smoked and friend, because that fulfills the measure of their creation.

Its true that in their mortal condition, most pigs find this process of dismemberment and being fried to be rather unpleasant, although none of them have actually told me that, but in the resurrection, 
we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

Now my son, I do not say that all pigs will be resurrected, but behold, I give it as my opinion that as part of the resurrection process, those pigs that will be resurrected will be changed such that they will find joy, happiness and fulfillment in being dismembered and fried. 

 

Edited August 7, 2016 by askandanswer

[Guest]

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Its still a place where progress is damned, there is no hope for improvement, and where there will be no access to loved ones in higher kingdoms. That might sound like the happiest and most glorious place for some, but its not hard to imagine that there might be others who are not happy with those conditions and would prefer to remove themselves from such conditions by any way that they can. Will they have that choice or will their agency on that matter be denied?

Just focus on being a good disciple of Jesus Christ and everything will work out.

[zil]

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

its not hard to imagine that there might be others who are not happy with those conditions

That's because you're imagining it from the perspective of someone who would not be happy with those conditions.  Everyone is now and always has been on the path to the kind of life they want to live.  Many do not wish to acknowledge this, but I believe that's simply a consequence of mortal shortsightedness (every time I've pointed out that if they really wanted what they say they want, but don't have, they'd work harder for it, they acknowledge the truth of that statement).  When all is said and done, everyone will end up where their agency has taken them, and it will be the place they really wanted.

Also, of late, I've determined that those who define agency as something completely different from free will are correct: I think that "free will" (the capacity or ability to make a choice and act on it) is something completely different from "moral agency" (being held responsible for the choices we make, and subject to the consequences of the same).  Personally, I believe free will is a natural part of intelligence.  Moral agency is requisite for progress.  I'm still working on a fuller understanding of the gift that is agency.  I recommend this article for more on the difference.

My brother, when deciding what to have for lunch, uses what he calls the "worth it factor" - is the food he wants worth the extra effort it would take as compared to peanut butter on toast?  If not, he just has peanut butter on toast.  I submit there are a great many people who think that higher kingdoms are simply "not worth it" - and will settle for "good enough" and be perfectly happy there (I see people making that choice in this life all the time - I do it myself in regard to some things).

[LeSellers]

4 minutes ago, zil said:

My brother, when deciding what to have for lunch, uses what he calls the "worth it factor" - is the food he wants worth the extra effort it would take as compared to peanut butter on toast?  If not, he just has peanut butter on toast.  I submit there are a great many people who think that higher kingdoms are simply "not worth it" - and will settle for "good enough" and be perfectly happy there (I see people making that choice in this life all the time - I do it myself in regard to some things).

Your brother is not alone. His "worth it factor" is the subject of a whole field of study called Praxeology: the study of human action. (The only seriously explored subset of Praxeology is Economics, but it is a field, nonetheless; because Econ is the only explored subset, we have to look there for parallels and applications).

No matter what the decision, no one ever makes a bad decision on purpose. At best (worst?) bad decisions come from poor information. No one ever has perfect information, so we all make poor choices all the time.

But the other reason for bad decisions is "wrong"* values. If one values stuff more than integrity or other people's lives, he'll steal or kill.
* "Wrong" in quotes because we are not in a place to judge things from an eternal perspective. Yes, murder for gain is always wrong (we have God's word on that) , but other values (and the resulting choices) may appear to be wrong but are not: e.g., Nephi's killing Laban.

If I spend $1 on a newspaper, it must be because I value the newspaper more highly at that point than anything else it was possible for me to do with that dollar, including buying nothing at all (saving it). A pack of gum is less valuable, a pencil or a battery — the newspaper is more useful.

Just a hint of what this is all about, but enough, I hope, to show that there is a worth it factor in every choice we make.

Lehi

[Traveler]

16 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I can imagine a resurrected being, in the telestial kingdom or in outer darkness, being unhappy at the thought of facing an eternity of damnation, whereby their prospects for progress and their ability to meet with their loved ones in higher kingdoms are eternally limited. In such a hopeless and unhappy situation, such a being might decide that there is no point in continuing their existence. This does not seem like an unrealistic scenario given how frequently it happens here and now. But even if it is unrealistic, or unlikely, does that being then the choice, or the ability, to end their unhappiness by ending their existence? If they can end their existence and commit suicide, would that rob justice because they have escaped their eternal punishment? If they can’t end their existence, and are forced to continue living against their will, is that denying them one of the most important choices provided by free agency – the right to choose whether to live or not? Who wins – justice or agency? The church teaches that after this life, there will be no more death and that the body and spirit will be eternally joined together. If that is true, then it would seem that a resurrected being would not have the ability to choose to end their eternal existence. Perhaps agency loses out to justice. Or perhaps, when formulating the teaching that there will be no death after this life, the formulators or promulgators of that teaching did not give any consideration to the possibility of post mortal suicide.

 

I don’t have a particular position on this question and I’m not saying that I believe or disbelieve any of the speculation or assumptions contained in the above question. I also don’t see a discussion of this question as resulting in any immediate, practical outcomes, or any direct outcomes that are likely to have any impact on how we should be living our daily lives. However, I think there is a reasonable possibility that a good discussion of this question could lead to a greater understanding of God, and His laws and operations, and that would certainly be a good thing.

 

I cannot imagine anyone being anywhere in eternity that does not want to be there.  My view of the judgment is someone standing before G-d as G-d invites them to the Celestial Kingdom.  As the individual views the Celestial Kingdom they may say – “This is not what I thought nor is it what I want to do or be involved with for the rest of eternity – The laws and covenants are far too restrictive for what I want to do in eternity”.  To which G-d will respond, “What then is you choice?”   The person, with the full light of understanding and knowledge tells G-d which kingdom (under what laws and covenants) they will by happy.

I believe many will not want to be Celestial because the Celestial laws and covenants will seem to them to be too restrictive.  Discipline is a manner of restrictions and righteousness (Celestial) is the ultimate discipline.  Some will desire to do what they want – when they want – the degree of which will define their kingdom of glory.  Some will find the work and glory of service and kindness towards others too restrictive for advancing one’s self.  Which is why Satan chose not be become a Celestial being.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

35 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I believe many will not want to be Celestial because the Celestial laws and covenants will seem to them to be too restrictive.

IMO, "seem" is the operative word there.  I believe the celestial kingdom will be the place with the fewest restrictions on what is possible - indeed, it will be the only place where literally everything is possible and where there are actually no restrictions at all.  The inhabitants of other kingdoms will be restricted (in knowledge and action and capacity).  The people in the celestial kingdom will learn and abide by all eternal laws (no different, for example, from the laws of physics) and by mastering those laws, they will be able to do all things - and thus, be unrestricted.  Only the impossible will be restricted, and then only because it's not possible (of course, "nothing" is the only impossible thing; all other things are, by definition, possible).

Those in other kingdoms will think, "Yeah, but to do that, I first have to learn all this, and it's not worth it.  I don't want to do that so much after all.  I'd rather accept the restriction of not being able to do that."

Some might see the "inability" to sin as a restriction, or the "requirement" to obey laws as restriction, but the reverse is true.  Sin is the limiter, or the expression of limitation.  Righteousness is the expression of knowledge and freedom.  Laws are what make things possible - to remain ignorant of a law is to remain ignorant of possibilities.  To defy a law is to reject the possible.  (If you reject the laws which allow flight, you will never fly; if you defy them (e.g. and jump off a building with no means to "fly"), you'll go splat when you land.  IMO, eternal laws are no different - remain ignorant or defiant and infinite possibilities will remain outside your grasp - restricted.  Master eternal laws, and all things are within your power - utter lack of restriction.)

[Traveler]

20 minutes ago, zil said:

IMO, "seem" is the operative word there.  I believe the celestial kingdom will be the place with the fewest restrictions on what is possible - indeed, it will be the only place where literally everything is possible and where there are actually no restrictions at all.  The inhabitants of other kingdoms will be restricted (in knowledge and action and capacity).  The people in the celestial kingdom will learn and abide by all eternal laws (no different, for example, from the laws of physics) and by mastering those laws, they will be able to do all things - and thus, be unrestricted.  Only the impossible will be restricted, and then only because it's not possible (of course, "nothing" is the only impossible thing; all other things are, by definition, possible).

Those in other kingdoms will think, "Yeah, but to do that, I first have to learn all this, and it's not worth it.  I don't want to do that so much after all.  I'd rather accept the restriction of not being able to do that."

Some might see the "inability" to sin as a restriction, or the "requirement" to obey laws as restriction, but the reverse is true.  Sin is the limiter, or the expression of limitation.  Righteousness is the expression of knowledge and freedom.  Laws are what make things possible - to remain ignorant of a law is to remain ignorant of possibilities.  To defy a law is to reject the possible.  (If you reject the laws which allow flight, you will never fly; if you defy them (e.g. and jump off a building with no means to "fly"), you'll go splat when you land.  IMO, eternal laws are no different - remain ignorant or defiant and infinite possibilities will remain outside your grasp - restricted.  Master eternal laws, and all things are within your power - utter lack of restriction.)

 

I agree, you have the right idea.  I would add the concept of being a concert pianist.   When we sit at the piano keyboard we are limited (damned) to play much of anything.  Unless we have disciplined ourselves previously to teach our mind and fingers what to do to create music.  We may say we would like to play or even be sorry we cannot play stuff but the desire to practice and discipline ourselves (live by the necessary laws) is not worth it to us – we would rather do something else with our time other than practice.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I agree, you have the right idea.  I would add the concept of being a concert pianist.   When we sit at the piano keyboard we are limited (damned) to play much of anything.  Unless we have disciplined ourselves previously to teach our mind and fingers what to do to create music.  We may say we would like to play or even be sorry we cannot play stuff but the desire to practice and discipline ourselves (live by the necessary laws) is not worth it to us – we would rather do something else with our time other than practice.

The Traveler

Yes, it is not the "laws" of music which are restrictive, it is our refusal to learn and then act in harmony with those laws which restricts us.

[Traveler]

10 minutes ago, zil said:

Yes, it is not the "laws" of music which are restrictive, it is our refusal to learn and then act in harmony with those laws which restricts us.

It is only through the applications of the laws that govern things that we can exist and act in harmony with such things.  G-d being the example of governing in harmony with laws. 

 

We are agreeing so much - this may be hard to maintain much interest.  Usually interest is created with disharmony and disagreement. 

 

The Traveler

[zil]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

We are agreeing so much - this may be hard to maintain much interest.  Usually interest is created with disharmony and disagreement.

Well, I disagree completely!  Haven't you heard?  Birds of a feather flock together.  Misery loves company.  Corporate executives love "yes men".  I hear some people even agree to disagree.  All that said, however, I'm bored now and I'm going to go back to practicing my handwriting (on French-ruled paper - having learned what it's for, I'm now putting it to use and finding it quite helpful - my lower-case "r" never looked better).

[Traveler]

Quote

 

@zil - okay I believed you gored the first time you posted it. 

 

The Traveler

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

@zil - okay I believed you gored the first time you posted it. 

 

The Traveler

Gored?  I did delete the second posting of my most recent post.  Did it muck up your quoting me?  Or were you teasing me for being redundant?  It is entirely possible that I'm mostly redundant - especially when I agree with someone...

[Blackmarch]

21 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I can imagine a resurrected being, in the telestial kingdom or in outer darkness, being unhappy at the thought of facing an eternity of damnation, whereby their prospects for progress and their ability to meet with their loved ones in higher kingdoms are eternally limited. In such a hopeless and unhappy situation, such a being might decide that there is no point in continuing their existence. This does not seem like an unrealistic scenario given how frequently it happens here and now. But even if it is unrealistic, or unlikely, does that being then the choice, or the ability, to end their unhappiness by ending their existence? If they can end their existence and commit suicide, would that rob justice because they have escaped their eternal punishment? If they can’t end their existence, and are forced to continue living against their will, is that denying them one of the most important choices provided by free agency – the right to choose whether to live or not? Who wins – justice or agency? The church teaches that after this life, there will be no more death and that the body and spirit will be eternally joined together. If that is true, then it would seem that a resurrected being would not have the ability to choose to end their eternal existence. Perhaps agency loses out to justice. Or perhaps, when formulating the teaching that there will be no death after this life, the formulators or promulgators of that teaching did not give any consideration to the possibility of post mortal suicide.

 

I don’t have a particular position on this question and I’m not saying that I believe or disbelieve any of the speculation or assumptions contained in the above question. I also don’t see a discussion of this question as resulting in any immediate, practical outcomes, or any direct outcomes that are likely to have any impact on how we should be living our daily lives. However, I think there is a reasonable possibility that a good discussion of this question could lead to a greater understanding of God, and His laws and operations, and that would certainly be a good thing.

 

As in the cesation of existance? i have no idea, and i have not seen anything to suggest the possibility.

As for a seperation from God? sure... it's called outer darkness.

[LeSellers]

48 minutes ago, Blackmarch said:

the cesation of existance? i have no idea, and i have not seen anything to suggest the possibility.

Our beings are without beginning or end, and what we know of, spirit and physical, is a tiny fraction of our existences.

There was a time, some century ago, when it was speculated that the bodies (I don't remember anything about the spirits) of people in Outer Darkness would be "recycled" and sent to another world to have a second go at it. The thrust of our "theology" has been going the opposite direction: we have one existence, or trajectory. We "started" as intelligences, we became spirits, we are corporeal, and we will become glorified to one degree or another (except those who choose Outer Darkness).

No one I have read has said anything about people in any of the three degrees of glory doing anything but continuing as they are placed after the judgement. The telestial, however much below the Terrestrial, and the Terrestrial below the Celestial, and each of the three classes of the Celestial is still wondrous and marvelous to the point of destruction of boredom or any ennui. I cannot imagine anyone in any of these places being anything but happy because that place is a "perfect fit". In the book Brave New World, we read of the Epsilon children who, by their indoctrination, are unable to desire anything above their station; being an Alpha, or even a Delta, would be painful to them. We are busy indoctrinating our selves, or, better, creating ourselves, so that, whatever kingdom we end up in, will be that perfect fit, and anything else would be painful.

Lehi

[CV75]

On 8/7/2016 at 8:16 PM, askandanswer said:

I can imagine a resurrected being, in the telestial kingdom or in outer darkness, being unhappy at the thought of facing an eternity of damnation, whereby their prospects for progress and their ability to meet with their loved ones in higher kingdoms are eternally limited. In such a hopeless and unhappy situation, such a being might decide that there is no point in continuing their existence. This does not seem like an unrealistic scenario given how frequently it happens here and now. But even if it is unrealistic, or unlikely, does that being then the choice, or the ability, to end their unhappiness by ending their existence? If they can end their existence and commit suicide, would that rob justice because they have escaped their eternal punishment? If they can’t end their existence, and are forced to continue living against their will, is that denying them one of the most important choices provided by free agency – the right to choose whether to live or not? Who wins – justice or agency? The church teaches that after this life, there will be no more death and that the body and spirit will be eternally joined together. If that is true, then it would seem that a resurrected being would not have the ability to choose to end their eternal existence. Perhaps agency loses out to justice. Or perhaps, when formulating the teaching that there will be no death after this life, the formulators or promulgators of that teaching did not give any consideration to the possibility of post mortal suicide.

 

I don’t have a particular position on this question and I’m not saying that I believe or disbelieve any of the speculation or assumptions contained in the above question. I also don’t see a discussion of this question as resulting in any immediate, practical outcomes, or any direct outcomes that are likely to have any impact on how we should be living our daily lives. However, I think there is a reasonable possibility that a good discussion of this question could lead to a greater understanding of God, and His laws and operations, and that would certainly be a good thing.

 

I'm sure the feelings expressed in Alma 36:15 can be experienced by a resurrected person. "Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds." Unfortunately, they have lost their agency*, and haven't any power over the inseparable contentedness of spirit and element (D&C 93:33) so they are stuck.

* D&C 9:31 "Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation [the loss of agency**] of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light."

** Moses 4:3 "Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man..."

[CV75]

On 8/7/2016 at 8:16 PM, askandanswer said:

I can imagine a resurrected being, in the telestial kingdom or in outer darkness, being unhappy at the thought of facing an eternity of damnation, whereby their prospects for progress and their ability to meet with their loved ones in higher kingdoms are eternally limited. In such a hopeless and unhappy situation, such a being might decide that there is no point in continuing their existence. This does not seem like an unrealistic scenario given how frequently it happens here and now. But even if it is unrealistic, or unlikely, does that being then the choice, or the ability, to end their unhappiness by ending their existence? If they can end their existence and commit suicide, would that rob justice because they have escaped their eternal punishment? If they can’t end their existence, and are forced to continue living against their will, is that denying them one of the most important choices provided by free agency – the right to choose whether to live or not? Who wins – justice or agency? The church teaches that after this life, there will be no more death and that the body and spirit will be eternally joined together. If that is true, then it would seem that a resurrected being would not have the ability to choose to end their eternal existence. Perhaps agency loses out to justice. Or perhaps, when formulating the teaching that there will be no death after this life, the formulators or promulgators of that teaching did not give any consideration to the possibility of post mortal suicide.

 

I don’t have a particular position on this question and I’m not saying that I believe or disbelieve any of the speculation or assumptions contained in the above question. I also don’t see a discussion of this question as resulting in any immediate, practical outcomes, or any direct outcomes that are likely to have any impact on how we should be living our daily lives. However, I think there is a reasonable possibility that a good discussion of this question could lead to a greater understanding of God, and His laws and operations, and that would certainly be a good thing.

 

I'm sure the feelings expressed in Alma 36:15 can be experienced by a resurrected person. "Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds." Unfortunately, they have lost their agency*, and haven't any power over the inseparable contentedness of spirit and element (D&C 93:33) so they are stuck.

* D&C 9:31 "Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation [the loss of agency**] of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light."

** Moses 4:3 "Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man..."

[zil]

36 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm sure the feelings expressed in Alma 36:15 can be experienced by a resurrected person. "Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds."

IMO, they will only feel that prior to receiving their glory (for those who will receive glory).  Those feelings will be a desire to avoid judgement and punishment.  Once judgement and punishment are complete, and glory is received, they will be happy (content) with what they have received.

As for those in outer darkness, I expect they will be too busy ranting and raving about the unfairness of it all, and how much better they could have done if only they hadn't been unfairly cheated, to want to become extinct.

[askandanswer]

Ok, there seems to be a theme amongst many of the responses so far, saying something like whatever kingdom we end up in in the next life, it will be a good place for us to be and we will be happy there so no one will want to commit eternal suicide, even if they could.

So lets change the scenario a little. There are many  who were once in this life who, by their own hand, and following a conscious well thought out decision, have gladly chosen death over life. I can well imagine some of them entering the next life and their first thoughts being something like “darn, I thought I ended all this, and now here I am, alive again, despite my best efforts. I better try again.” Will they again be able to choose death (as in the permanent discontinuation of life and consciousness) over life, and be able to implement that decision? If they are not able to do so, is that a reduction in their ability to choose? Are they condemned to live out an eternity that they might not want? That doesn’t sound like a position of fun and happiness for them.

[kapikui]

57 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Ok, there seems to be a theme amongst many of the responses so far, saying something like whatever kingdom we end up in in the next life, it will be a good place for us to be and we will be happy there so no one will want to commit eternal suicide, even if they could.

So lets change the scenario a little. There are many  who were once in this life who, by their own hand, and following a conscious well thought out decision, have gladly chosen death over life. I can well imagine some of them entering the next life and their first thoughts being something like “darn, I thought I ended all this, and now here I am, alive again, despite my best efforts. I better try again.” Will they again be able to choose death (as in the permanent discontinuation of life and consciousness) over life, and be able to implement that decision? If they are not able to do so, is that a reduction in their ability to choose? Are they condemned to live out an eternity that they might not want? That doesn’t sound like a position of fun and happiness for them.

The potential of exactly this scenario is what keeps me from suicide when I get depressed. 

[zil]

6 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Will they again be able to choose death (as in the permanent discontinuation of life and consciousness) over life, and be able to implement that decision? If they are not able to do so, is that a reduction in their ability to choose? Are they condemned to live out an eternity that they might not want? That doesn’t sound like a position of fun and happiness for them.

We are immortal. (Period. The end. Like it or not.)  No, an immortal cannot choose to end their immortality - it's not possible (were it possible, they would not be immortal, by definition).  (In the following, the emphasis is mine.)

Quote

D&C 93:29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

(If it cannot be created, it cannot be destroyed.)  Is that a limitation on his ability to choose?  No, it's a limitation of reality - none of us can choose anything contrary to what's possible.  We must stay within the realms of reality.  It's a limitation of what choices are available to him, not a limitation on his will.  (That may seem like semantics, but I think it's an important distinction.)

Are they condemned to live out an eternity they might not want?  No, they are condemned to live a life they do not want until such time as they eventually learn sufficient truth and come to want one of the available options.  In other words, I reject the possibility that an immortal, once they understand enough, will wish to cease existing.  The desire to cease existing comes from believing things which are not true: no one will ever love / want me, this is too hard, I'll never be happy, my punishment for these sins will be unbearable, I can't take this physical / emotional pain any longer, the world would be better off without me, there are too many people in the universe, etc.  When the truth dispels these lies, the desire to cease existing will go with the lies.

NOTE: I do think it is theoretically possible to refuse resurrection, but that no one will.  We are told that our spirit selves, once our mortal body has died, will long for our bodies again, as if being only a spirit were akin to prison.  It is also possible to refuse any and all glory - those who do so will spend eternity in outer darkness (and yes, I believe that decision will be final and last through the remainder of eternity - I'm perfectly willing to be wrong, but I fear this is accurate).

5 hours ago, kapikui said:

The potential of exactly this scenario is what keeps me from suicide when I get depressed. 

I expect an understanding of the truth has kept many people from suicide and other bad decisions.