Pastors Giving Up Shows the Importance of a Lay Clergy

[Third Hour]

When I think of pastors, there are two people who come to mind: Joel Osteen and the dad from 7th Heaven. I'll be the first to admit that that's definitely a skewed perception of what pastors are like — both of these men seem to exude this confidence, kindness, and superhero-esque nature that is unrealistic for nearly any pastor to achieve. But are these the kind of men that congregations have come to expect? That they have come to demand? Unrealistic Expectations Are congregations a bit unrealistic in their expectations of pastors? Christian news organization Baptist News Global recently published an article about the dwindling numbers of pastors. It's not that people aren't seeking out the ecclesiastical profession — it's that they're not keeping it. BNG's article cites a 2015 study performed by ExPastors.com, a site whose mission is to "be a place of help, healing, and hope for expastors, pastors, and church leaders." The survey results concluded that "Eighty-five percent [of pastors] consider leaving ministry [and] 77 percent consider themselves having experienced burnout." But...

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[Maureen]

@prisonchaplain, I'm curious about your opinion on this article/thread.

M.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Maureen

[Larry Cotrell]

Interesting article. My father planted a church when I was just a kid. There was a lot of difficulty and hardship. There were a lot of rumors that were meant to divide the church. It caused a lot of conflict between him, his mom, his brother, etc. He got stabbed in the back by many people that he was close with. It was hard and my parents thought about giving up many times. When you do the work of God, Satan will always try to stand in the way, and he tried everything. Despite all of these troubles (and my father's hatred for public speaking) he never gave up. He always knew that he was doing what God wanted him to, so he had to keep going and doing the will of God. Most don't do it for the money. My father had to take up a second (and at one point a third) job just to pay the bills. My grandfather also pastored a church for about 30 years.

I say this not to say that pastors shouldn't exist, I think they should. But in order to be a pastor, you have to rely on God, you can't do it in your own. Yes, is a difficult job, but yes, its an important one. Could my father do it? Not on his own, but God helped him because he relied on God. 

[prisonchaplain]

Most ministers work hard, but they do work they feel called by God to.  So, there is a sense of fulfillment and peace that comes from doing what the Master asks of us.  My understanding is that most churches have a pastoral staff, so that no one person carries all of the burden.  Even my small church of 160 has a lead pastor and a youth pastor, plus a part-time children's pastor, and two volunteer pastors.  Then there are the Sunday school teachers, childrens' workers, prayer warriors, and small group leaders.  As for working through stress, pastors within a church can consult each other.  My church also provides 13 elders (semi-retired pastors) we can call, should we want informal outside counseling.  Finally, my denomination works with a Christian counseling center, to provide professional counseling, should we need it.  Then there are the enrichment seminars, pastor couple retreats, and annual district-level conferences we attend, to regain our perspective and spiritual compass.  In other words, we kinda sorta do have a "lay clergy" through our volunteer workers and pastors, and we seldom ask one  person to do it all.  My guess is that the heaviest "burn out" comes in small churches, where the pastor is expected to do all and please all, and in which the culture of the church has become somewhat corrupted, with few willing to volunteer to help out.

[prisonchaplain]

Concerning the problem of priestcraft, I recall the deacon's prayer:  Father God, You keep the pastor humble.  We'll keep him poor!

 

[Larry Cotrell]

1 Peter 5:1-4

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

[Just_A_Guy]

The article struck me as a bit self-congratulatory for my taste.  Speaking as a Mormon--the scriptures *DO* support the notion of recompensing ministers for their time; and our church has done it in the past. Whether it works or not is a question each church has to address for itself, with varying results.

As Mormons we somewhat smugly talk about the dangers of "priestcraft", but I think the truth is more prosaic:  when you happen to enjoy the benefit of a highly motivated and engaged membership and a highly centralized curriculum/set of core doctrine, it's probably not worth the additional investment for a full-time professionally-trained clergy.  The LDS have about 30K congregations globally.  If we suddenly hired one full- time and one part-time staffer for each congregation at a global average of $35k/year/congregation, that's over a billion dollars a year the church has to divert from other priorities.  You can build hundreds of churches, or a dozen temples, for that kind of money.  In one sense, it's not really that the Mormon church is unjustifiably wealthy.  It just operates with insanely low overhead.

We get away with all this, I think, because our theology gives us a deep sense of purpose and an uncommon degree of allegiance to our leaders; which helps to knit together a very strong community that puts up with demands that frankly would cause members of many other faith communities to throw up their hands and walk away.  There's a synergy to the way I as a Mormon relate to my church--a frank acknowledgement that I need it (not a church; this church) as much as or even more than it needs me; and I suspect that most mainline Christian churches are now deeply uncomfortable with the idea of openly trying to create such a dynamic with their own members.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

It is unfortunate that the article included that paragraph or so about priestcraft.  I don't think that was the gist of his point.  But I believe it was necessary.

The reason he included it was to act as a disclaimer.  I believe he was speaking mainly to an LDS audience.  He was essentially saying, "Yes we all know about priestcraft.  But priestcraft is A.  I'm now talking about B.  And here is the issue with B." (B being the burnout rate of well-meaning pastors).

As such, I believe he had a valid point with B.  I think the author would probably apologize to any non-Mormons who took that as an attack on their methods.

[prisonchaplain]

@Carborendum I rechecked the link, and realized that the article is for this site.  LOL.  She writes for More Good Foundation.  Context is everything.  Given that this site is meant primarily for LDS and those interested in the faith community, the audience is perfect for a piece highlighting a potential difficulty with having full-time clergy serve wards, and reminding the faithful that the current all-volunteer system does have certain benefits. 

[NightSG]

On 10/30/2016 at 10:00 AM, ldsnet said:

The survey results concluded that "Eighty-five percent [of pastors] consider leaving ministry [and] 77 percent consider themselves having experienced burnout." But...

Name any job with such high satisfaction ratings.  I know pretty much every industry with the possible exception of quality assurance at the Guinness brewery has 100% considering a different career at some point.

[prisonchaplain]

Thanks for the slightly tongue-in-cheek post @NightSG. Ironically, you're half right. In jolly ole England vicars have the highest satisfaction rates. Alas, pub workers are among the lowest.  https://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/mar/21/vicars-greatest-job-satisfaction-publicans-least-happy

[Sunday21]

I worry about ministers. Some that I have meet in my country look pretty stressed. I have heard about congregation killers. Members who complain about everything. Nasty souls!

[prisonchaplain]

@Sunday21  Thanks buddy!  Timely blessings too--since October is Clergy Appreciation Month. 

[Sunday21]

i have met some lovely members of the clergy on several continents. They work hard and do good work!

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

i have met some lovely members of the clergy on several continents. They work hard and do good work!

I had a good interaction with a minister of a local church while on my mission.  He knew about us and what we do.  He actually referred someone to us.  I was really surprised.  Apparently, a member of his congregation had been an inactive Mormon for many years.  At some point he realized he needed to go back.  But he didn't know how to contact the Church. (I don't know.  That's what he said).

Anyway, we had a pleasant conversation about it and we made contact with the man -- who never actually came back to church. (?)

[NightSG]

31 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But he didn't know how to contact the Church. (I don't know.  That's what he said).

Not that unusual; bear in mind the Church's preference for having the directions to a local meetinghouse be slightly more complex than getting to Hogwart's, and reluctance to participate in community events with the infidels.  I've talked to plenty of missionaries here and in a couple of other areas who said the number one response on initial contact is "there are Mormons around here?"

Edited November 1, 2016 by NightSG

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Not that unusual; bear in mind the Church's preference for having the directions to a local meetinghouse be slightly more complex than getting to Hogwart's, and reluctance to participate in community events with the infidels.  I've talked to plenty of missionaries here and in a couple of other areas who said the number one response on initial contact is "there are Mormons around here?"

Even though there was no internet back then, how difficult is it to pick up a phone book (back when we had them) and look up ANY church contact number?

[NightSG]

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Even though there was no internet back then, how difficult is it to pick up a phone book (back when we had them) and look up ANY church contact number?

Depends; some aren't listed in the yellow pages, and some white pages listings just list the number at the meetinghouse, which may or may not be forwarded correctly when nobody's there.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Depends; some aren't listed in the yellow pages, and some white pages listings just list the number at the meetinghouse, which may or may not be forwarded correctly when nobody's there.

I've never lived in an area where the yellow pages or white pages did not have multiple entries for the Church.  And in the area in question, there were no fewer than three pages of listings.

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I've never lived in an area where the yellow pages or white pages did not have multiple entries for the Church.  And in the area in question, there were no fewer than three pages of listings.

It's a Baptist town.  I doubt there are three pages worth of active members even now.  Back when phone books were still common, they were likely meeting in someone's house.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, NightSG said:

It's a Baptist town.  I doubt there are three pages worth of active members even now.  Back when phone books were still common, they were likely meeting in someone's house.

That doesn't change the fact that there were three pages worth of listings in Phoenix.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I've never lived in an area where the yellow pages or white pages did not have multiple entries for the Church.  And in the area in question, there were no fewer than three pages of listings.

What are these "yellow pages" and "white pages" of which you speak, stranger? Some alien custom?

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Vort said:

What are these "yellow pages" and "white pages" of which you speak, stranger? Some alien custom?

Now behold, I share with you ancient knowledge.  In days of yore, when music was sold on formed, etched plastic discs known as reck - chords, the disseminating of information came to be known as "books".  Such "phone books" were yoked unto an artifact denominated as "the pay phone".

Yea, verily, perilous were those days when the children of men were tethered to communications which were immobile.  And hefty were the fees to call great distances, yea, farther than man can walk in a single day.

But behold, there came the gift of technology known as "the brick", and heavy was the weight thereof.  And the hardness was great.  Yea, great enough to hurt the toe of a man should he drop it.  And the brick was great in expense.  Yea, even greater than the calls of great distance.

So, the gods of Motorola and the gods of AT&T convened in a great council in the halls of science and business and provided to the public "miniaturization".  And the weight and size were no more and from that corporophany was birthed the "flip-phone".  And great was it's popularity and similarity to Star Trek.  And so too was the greatness of their profits.

Then came the new god Sprint.  And Sprint did throw a wrench in their works and offered the flat rate phone.  And later gods did offer free roaming and free long distance and unlimited minutes.  And great was the rejoicing thereof.

And surely there was never a happier people among all the people that ever lived upon the face of the earth.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Guest

[Maureen]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

...But he didn't know how to contact the Church. (I don't know.  That's what he said)....

Maybe he tried to look it up under Mormon Church and didn't realize it would be under Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

M.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Maybe he tried to look it up under Mormon Church and didn't realize it would be under Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

M.

Nope, there was a re-direct in the phone book from "Mormon" to the proper name.