Do other religions have some bit of truth to them?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I may not be following your rationale. Do you have an independent publication (link if possible) detailing the doctrine you are trying to explain, and would you provide it?

 

I don’t see how anyone rejecting the gospel in the spirit world would not suffer in some way. Do you have a scriptural reference that teaches that those who in the end reject the gospel even in the spirit world obtain joy in the presence of God?

 

Teaching basic gospel principles in terms of two extremes does prove that only those two extremes exist.

 

 

So you understand then. There isnt any scripture that teaches man can be saved to glory without repentance and baptism. So then why do we, as a church, teach that unrepentant whoremongers inheirt glory?

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So you understand then. There isnt any scripture that teaches man can be saved to glory without repentance and baptism. So then why do we, as a church, teach that unrepentant whoremongers inheirt glory?

This is a pointless point. We teach that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Implicit in the idea of atonement is the acceptance of that atonement. Of course those who will be saved will accept that salvation!

You clearly believe that the Church's leaders are failing in their duties. In this, you are gravely wrong. But I'm curious: What would you have the Church do in order to comply with Rob Osborn's vision of How Things Should Go?

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is a pointless point. We teach that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Implicit in the idea of atonement is the acceptance of that atonement. Of course those who will be saved will accept that salvation!

You clearly believe that the Church's leaders are failing in their duties. In this, you are gravely wrong. But I'm curious: What would you have the Church do in order to comply with Rob Osborn's vision of How Things Should Go?

Just so you dont get the wrong idea of me, I fully and completely stand by our beloved church leaders. I love them and listen to them and head their counsel. They are prophets of God! But, that knowledge in no way makes all of our doctrine we teach and believe in as absolute truth. 

Only those who repent and are baptized will be saved from eternal hell after resurrection.

In time I am confident our doctrine concerning the plan of salvation will be clarified and we shall find that our heaven is the same heaven that the rest of Christianity teaches.

[CV75]

53 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So you understand then. There isnt any scripture that teaches man can be saved to glory without repentance and baptism. So then why do we, as a church, teach that unrepentant whoremongers inheirt glory?

I understand that you haven’t answered these questions I had earlier: (1) Do you have an independent publication (link if possible) detailing the doctrine you are trying to explain, and would you provide it? (2) Do you have a scriptural reference that teaches that those who in the end reject the gospel even in the spirit world obtain joy in the presence of God?

With regards to scripture that teaches man can be saved to glory without repentance and baptism, see D&C 88.

Verse 16, “And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul, “And the spirit and the body are the soul of man” (verse 15). The earth is designed for the celestial kingdom (verses 18-20), but: “they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom. For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.” (verses 21-24). Man can be saved in the glory befitting his ability to abide that glory, and some of those glories are for those who “are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ,” in other words, repentance and baptism.

We are not meet when we do not repent, and that occurs by degree (verses 36-39): “All kingdoms have a law given; And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. All beings who abide not in those conditions [i.e. the law of Christ] are not justified.”

To reiterate (verses 28-33), “They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received [the law of Christ]. For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.” Regarding these, “Therefore, they are left without excuse, and their sins are upon their own heads” (verse 82).

So while everyone receives “the same body which was a natural body,” not everyone receives the same glory, and there are many glories, each with its respective law, and some reflect laws designed for those who do not abide repentance and baptism.

[Guest]

I think the different degrees of glory are mainly what kind of body we are resurrected with. Some people will have Celestial bodies, some lesser in glory and some less than that.

[askandanswer]

On 12/28/2016 at 2:10 PM, Larry Cotrell said:

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." 

I just had a look at Google Earth. West Temple, Salt Lake City, UT  certainly is a straight road but it doesn't look to be all that narrow

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I understand that you haven’t answered these questions I had earlier: (1) Do you have an independent publication (link if possible) detailing the doctrine you are trying to explain, and would you provide it? (2) Do you have a scriptural reference that teaches that those who in the end reject the gospel even in the spirit world obtain joy in the presence of God?

 

With regards to scripture that teaches man can be saved to glory without repentance and baptism, see D&C 88.

 

Verse 16, “And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul, “And the spirit and the body are the soul of man” (verse 15). The earth is designed for the celestial kingdom (verses 18-20), but: “they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom. For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.” (verses 21-24). Man can be saved in the glory befitting his ability to abide that glory, and some of those glories are for those who “are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ,” in other words, repentance and baptism.

 

We are not meet when we do not repent, and that occurs by degree (verses 36-39): “All kingdoms have a law given; And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. All beings who abide not in those conditions [i.e. the law of Christ] are not justified.”

 

To reiterate (verses 28-33), “They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received [the law of Christ]. For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.” Regarding these, “Therefore, they are left without excuse, and their sins are upon their own heads” (verse 82).

So while everyone receives “the same body which was a natural body,” not everyone receives the same glory, and there are many glories, each with its respective law, and some reflect laws designed for those who do not abide repentance and baptism.

 

Well, we are here in the telestial kingdom and there were requirements to come here just as there will be requirements to go to the terrestrial kingdom in the millennium.

The scriptures are quite clear that repentance and baptism are essential to be saved from hell eternally. All doctrine must fit that principle. So perhaps we do not undeestand what telestial and terrestrial law mean. I can assure you though that no man will be saved without strict obedience to repentance and baptism.

I have always found it interesting that section 88 refers to "those of a celestial spirit" as defining them as future celestial heirs., then referring to the glory of their bodies by what glory they are quickened with. To me this is stating that those resurrected now are done so by telestial glory, those resurrected in the millennium by terrestrial glory and then at the end of the millennium the righteous will all be quickened to celestial glory.

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, we are here in the telestial kingdom and there were requirements to come here just as there will be requirements to go to the terrestrial kingdom in the millennium.

Rob, this is false. We are on the earth, which is likened unto the telestial kingdom. It is not the telestial kingdom. Section 76 clearly teaches, "And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding; and no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it."

I think you need to listen closely to what is stated in the presentation of the endowment. The path your thoughts are going down is incorrect.

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So you understand then. There isnt any scripture that teaches man can be saved to glory without repentance and baptism. So then why do we, as a church, teach that unrepentant whoremongers inheirt glory?

I think it's been said in a number of ways in this thread already; but to make the point a little more succinctly:

We don't.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, we are here in the telestial kingdom and there were requirements to come here just as there will be requirements to go to the terrestrial kingdom in the millennium.

The scriptures are quite clear that repentance and baptism are essential to be saved from hell eternally. All doctrine must fit that principle. So perhaps we do not undeestand what telestial and terrestrial law mean. I can assure you though that no man will be saved without strict obedience to repentance and baptism.

I have always found it interesting that section 88 refers to "those of a celestial spirit" as defining them as future celestial heirs., then referring to the glory of their bodies by what glory they are quickened with. To me this is stating that those resurrected now are done so by telestial glory, those resurrected in the millennium by terrestrial glory and then at the end of the millennium the righteous will all be quickened to celestial glory.

Regarding your remarks on requirements and essentials, all I have to say is, “yes and no; depends.” That is why I want you to answer my questions; that will help narrow down my reply.

Regarding D&C 88, it also defines those of terrestrial and telestial spirits, and “they who remain” as future heirs of a corresponding glory, and refers to the glory of their bodies also, according with the glory with which they are quickened. This same order (celestial first, followed by terrestrial, telestial and they who remain) is reiterated in verses 94-102 with the sequence of sounding trumps, with some resurrected before and during the Millenum, others after, and yet others long after, according to their identification as firstfruits, those freed from prison, the condemned, and those that remain until the very last.

Now getting back to my questions: Do you have an independent publication (link if possible) detailing the doctrine you are trying to explain, and would you provide it? Do you have a scriptural reference that teaches that those who in the end reject the gospel even in the spirit world obtain joy in the presence of God?

[zil]

@CV75, you can't use Joseph Smith's revelations on the degrees of glory to convince Rob of anything because he already stated that he (Rob) understands what Joseph Smith saw in vision better than Joseph Smith understood it (emphasis mine):

On 12/28/2016 at 8:25 PM, Rob Osborn said:

But, where does the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms fit in with the temple? In the endowment it is explained that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are in reality our own earth at different stages of progression before it is quickened to celestial glory. With this definition, in reading section 76, it thus makes proper sense that Joseph was not shown three separate worlds after resurrection but rather the same earth at different points in its progression. He just never made that connection.

In other words, he's already rejected all such interpretation of these degrees of glory, including those from Joseph Smith and found in D&C.

Edited December 30, 2016 by zil
removed white space

[CV75]

47 minutes ago, zil said:

@CV75, you can't use Joseph Smith's revelations on the degrees of glory to convince Rob of anything because he already stated that he (Rob) understands what Joseph Smith saw in vision better than Joseph Smith understood it (emphasis mine):

In other words, he's already rejected all such interpretation of these degrees of glory, including those from Joseph Smith and found in D&C.

Thank you; I see that, which is why I'm asking him to provide another reference that might better explain this version of the afterlife. @Rob Osborn Are you the only LDS to have ever come up with this idea; who else  has put it forth?

[Rob Osborn]

Cv75,

Im not sure if there is anyone else who shares my exact opinions. As for your other question, there is no scripture that states man can be saved in the kingdom of heaven without repentance and baptism.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, zil said:

@CV75, you can't use Joseph Smith's revelations on the degrees of glory to convince Rob of anything because he already stated that he (Rob) understands what Joseph Smith saw in vision better than Joseph Smith understood it (emphasis mine):

 

 

In other words, he's already rejected all such interpretation of these degrees of glory, including those from Joseph Smith and found in D&C.

Section 76 as presently taught contains obvious contradictions. I have spotted them and have come up with various ideas as to why its incorrect.

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

Rob, this is false. We are on the earth, which is likened unto the telestial kingdom. It is not the telestial kingdom. Section 76 clearly teaches, "And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding; and no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it."

I think you need to listen closely to what is stated in the presentation of the endowment. The path your thoughts are going down is incorrect.

I have listened to the endowment a lot. It states very clear that this earth is the telestial kingdom. It uses those exact words in reference to our current earth.

[Bad Karma]

For those of us that are LDS that hold these questions, just go to the temple more, visit the temple prez, ask him as well. 

 

[Just_A_Guy]

11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yes that is accurate. And, the scriptures support this position. For instance, we know that the earth after the millennium will become the celestial kingdom. In Revelations it speaks of the saved who dwell there while all the rest are in hell in the second death.

To clarify, then:  in this paradigm can one achieve a Terrestrial, but not a Celestial state whilst yet in mortality?  Or does one's own state mirror that of the earth on which one finds oneself?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

To clarify, then:  in this paradigm can one achieve a Terrestrial, but not a Celestial state whilst yet in mortality?  Or does one's own state mirror that of the earth on which one finds oneself?

One is quickened or abides by the glory of the earth at its present state. The earth right now abides by or is quickened by telestial glory. So too are the righteous who abide by the laws, they enjoy telestial glory.

[CV75]

12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Cv75,

Im not sure if there is anyone else who shares my exact opinions. As for your other question, there is no scripture that states man can be saved in the kingdom of heaven without repentance and baptism.

Now you are using the term “kingdom of heaven” instead of “glory” and “saved,” after using the term “completely cleansed” as a requirement for any of them, suggesting that you acknowledge incomplete cleansing as well. Such inconsistency and contradiction is why I was looking for someone who explains what you are trying to get across more reliably.

Another question I had that went unanswered, which is probably the most important one for me, is: how does the application of your opinion “work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory” to fulfill God’s plan better than the current LDS teachings do (additionally where you use terms such as “eternal hell”)?

For example, you said, “My heavily scripture supported opinion is that a person must be cleaned from all sin through obedience to the gospel to be saved from an eternal hell after resurrection and judgment.” Eternal hell has an end according to D&C 19. So back to my first point above, when you are inconsistent in using these terms, your explanations come across as circular.

11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Section 76 as presently taught contains obvious contradictions. I have spotted them and have come up with various ideas as to why its incorrect.

You have spotted what you consider to be contradictions but each one has been successfully refuted. Now if your ideas work for you, fine, but please describe how that belief translates to actions that render a better saint.

[Rob Osborn]

28 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Now you are using the term “kingdom of heaven” instead of “glory” and “saved,” after using the term “completely cleansed” as a requirement for any of them, suggesting that you acknowledge incomplete cleansing as well. Such inconsistency and contradiction is why I was looking for someone who explains what you are trying to get across more reliably.

 

Another question I had that went unanswered, which is probably the most important one for me, is: how does the application of your opinion “work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory” to fulfill God’s plan better than the current LDS teachings do (additionally where you use terms such as “eternal hell”)?

 

For example, you said, “My heavily scripture supported opinion is that a person must be cleaned from all sin through obedience to the gospel to be saved from an eternal hell after resurrection and judgment.” Eternal hell has an end according to D&C 19. So back to my first point above, when you are inconsistent in using these terms, your explanations come across as circular.

 

You have spotted what you consider to be contradictions but each one has been successfully refuted. Now if your ideas work for you, fine, but please describe how that belief translates to actions that render a better saint.

A person must be completely cleansed from all sin in order to be saved.

Section 19 describes eternal punishment for the unrepentant which befalls the sons of perdition. The suffering spoken of in the first few verses of section 19 is describing the type of suffering that befalls those who remain unrepentant after the millennium at judgment.

[estradling75]

16 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

A person must be completely cleansed from all sin in order to be saved.

Section 19 describes eternal punishment for the unrepentant which befalls the sons of perdition. The suffering spoken of in the first few verses of section 19 is describing the type of suffering that befalls those who remain unrepentant after the millennium at judgment.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what being redeemed from hell means...  Like Alma the Younger no unrepentant person is ever going to set foot in any of the Glories of Heaven. The redemption from hell requires repentance... it is the only way it has ever worked no matter what ever misunderstanding you or other might have.  That repentance is clearly foreseen in the idea that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess.  Those who remain unrepentant after that are the Sons of Perdition  

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I have listened to the endowment a lot. It states very clear that this earth is the telestial kingdom. It uses those exact words in reference to our current earth.

You're treading a thin line on discussing the endowment.  Fortunatly for you, you're misquoting it.  You apparently aren't paying as much attention as you think.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Guest

[zil]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But you're lucky that you're misquoting it.

That's what I thought.  It's on my list to check next time I go.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, zil said:

That's what I thought.  It's on my list to check next time I go.

If you need to, Zil.  That said... 

Rob, I'm old enough that I knew Adam.  He was a friend of mine.  And, Rob, you're no Adam.

[Rob Osborn]

18 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You're treading a thin line on discussing the endowment.  Fortunatly for you, you're misquoting it.  You apparently aren't paying as much attention as you think.

As I remember it states something along the lines of the narrator explaining that the room you are now in represents "the telestial kingdom", or "the world in which you now live". After that it is referred to as God instructing messengers to visit man in "the telestial world."

Anyone who wants to walk through a temple open house before it is dedicated will be explained that.