Do other religions have some bit of truth to them?

[Vort]

@Rob Osborn, you seem like a good guy. I mean that sincerely. But you also seem like the kind of guy who gets an idea early on, then develops it over the years, and clings to it to the point where you read your idea into everything -- scriptures, temple endowment and other ordinances, General Conference talks -- to the point that when a prophet or other leader preaches something in direct conflict with the belief, you dismiss the words of that prophet or leader as "just opinion."

This is dangerous, Rob. You do not want to do this. I have witness, up close and very personal, at least two (probably three or four) other people do just this. They get a brilliant idea, as they consider it, and they nurture it along. Soon they lose objectivity and become unwilling to bear any criticism toward their pet theory. They no longer approach the matter impartially or "scientifically". They become deeply invested on a personal level in their idea.

And in every case, it leads them away from the light, not toward it.

This happened throughout Church history. It is happening today -- look no further than Denver Snuffer, John Dehlin, and Kate Kelly, to name but three obvious recent examples. This is a club in which you don't want membership.

I understand that your "kingdoms of glory" theory is beguiling to you. I also acknowledge that such ideas are not inherently evil so long as (1) you remain willing at all times to immediately abandon your pet theory when the Spirit OR the Church's teachings direct otherwise, and (2) you keep an open mind on the subject, never taking your theory too seriously. I think you are in violation of both caveats, and thus on dangerous ground.

I say this with honest concern. What we discuss here on this forum are trivial things of little importance. But your soul is not a trivial thing of little importance. And the attitude with which you are approaching this issue eventually leads to very bad ends, places you absolutely do not want to be.

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Another question I had that went unanswered, which is probably the most important one for me, is: how does the application of your opinion “work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory” to fulfill God’s plan better than the current LDS teachings do (additionally where you use terms such as “eternal hell”)?

Under the current teaching almost everyone is saved eventually, even the unrepentant. My understanding and opinion works better because it expounds upon the doctrine in the Book of Mormon where "everyone" must repent, be baptized to be saved.

Does that answer your question?

[Rob Osborn]

45 minutes ago, Vort said:

@Rob Osborn, you seem like a good guy. I mean that sincerely. But you also seem like the kind of guy who gets an idea early on, then develops it over the years, and clings to it to the point where you read your idea into everything -- scriptures, temple endowment and other ordinances, General Conference talks -- to the point that when a prophet or other leader preaches something in direct conflict with the belief, you dismiss the words of that prophet or leader as "just opinion."

This is dangerous, Rob. You do not want to do this. I have witness, up close and very personal, at least two (probably three or four) other people do just this. They get a brilliant idea, as they consider it, and they nurture it along. Soon they lose objectivity and become unwilling to bear any criticism toward their pet theory. They no longer approach the matter impartially or "scientifically". They become deeply invested on a personal level in their idea.

And in every case, it leads them away from the light, not toward it.

This happened throughout Church history. It is happening today -- look no further than Denver Snuffer, John Dehlin, and Kate Kelly, to name but three obvious recent examples. This is a club in which you don't want membership.

I understand that your "kingdoms of glory" theory is beguiling to you. I also acknowledge that such ideas are not inherently evil so long as (1) you remain willing at all times to immediately abandon your pet theory when the Spirit OR the Church's teachings direct otherwise, and (2) you keep an open mind on the subject, never taking your theory too seriously. I think you are in violation of both caveats, and thus on dangerous ground.

I say this with honest concern. What we discuss here on this forum are trivial things of little importance. But your soul is not a trivial thing of little importance. And the attitude with which you are approaching this issue eventually leads to very bad ends, places you absolutely do not want to be.

I was one of the many critics of the likes of Dehlin, Kelly, Bill Reel, etc. It literally got me banned from most LDS blogs and forums. I am not on the apostate side. I just believe we have a basic misunderstanding of the plan of salvation.

[estradling75]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Under the current teaching almost everyone is saved eventually, even the unrepentant.

 

You keep saying this.... but you have not backed it up.  And you have been told repeatedly that you are wrong in this interpretation.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

. And as @MormonGator is quick to note, that covers a considerable span.

 @Vort is the only dude I know who makes @Carborendum look young. Ha! Zinged both of you in one post! ::evil laugh:: 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 @Vort is the only dude I know who makes @Carborendum look young. Ha! Zinged both of you in one post! ::evil laugh:: 

I can neither confirm nor deny my relative age compared to Vort.  But I can say I always act younger than I am.  It's that emotional immaturity thing.

I just had a nice dinner with relatives last night.  We had quite the zing party with the waitress.  She was startled to find out I was older than her.  She came back with "Well, Asians don't really age much."

It was only about two minutes after my BIL had said the same thing.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I can neither confirm nor deny my relative age compared to Vort. 

 @Carborendum was born during the Roosevelt administration.
@Vort was born during the Roosevelt administration. 

I'll leave it to you, the reader to figure the rest of it out. 

(You guys are both good sports!) 

Edited December 30, 2016 by MormonGator

[CV75]

47 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Under the current teaching almost everyone is saved eventually, even the unrepentant. My understanding and opinion works better because it expounds upon the doctrine in the Book of Mormon where "everyone" must repent, be baptized to be saved.

Does that answer your question?

No, but that's OK -- have a Happy New Year!

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

You keep saying this.... but you have not backed it up.  And you have been told repeatedly that you are wrong in this interpretation.

I have brought this up before. Here it is again, this is the official church teaching quoted from the official church doctrine manual-

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom."

It must be understood that the only thing separating terrestrial from telestial beings is that the terrestrial eventualky accept the gospel in spirit prison and repent whereas the telestial do not.

[Guest]

What is the difference between people who inherit the terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms and what's the difference between those who inherit the Telestial and the Sons of Perdition? 

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I have brought this up before. Here it is again, this is the official church teaching quoted from the official church doctrine manual-

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom."

It must be understood that the only thing separating terrestrial from telestial beings is that the terrestrial eventualky accept the gospel in spirit prison and repent whereas the telestial do not.

The bold is the important part.. Every where in the scripture the benefits Atonement is predicated on repentance.  Those in Hell will repent or they will join the ranks Sons of Perdition.

What triggers repentance?. Faith and that is where the difference lies.  There will come a time when Christ reveals himself to all(2nd Coming) and those without faith will have knowledge to base their repentance on.  and that is the difference between the Telestial and the Sons of Perdition.  In Hell at the end of time they will get knowledge.  The Telestial will use that knowledge to repent and gain the advantage of the Atonement. The Sons of Perdition will remain unrepentant

[estradling75]

4 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

What is the difference between people who inherit the terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms and what's the difference between those who inherit the Telestial and the Sons of Perdition? 

Sons of Perdition refuse to act on Knowledge of Christ

Telestial refuse to exercise Faith in Christ (but do act on knowledge)

Terrestrial act on faith in Christ but allow the world to overwhelm

Celestial act on faith and endure to the end.

 

[Vort]

21 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

What is the difference between people who inherit the terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms and what's the difference between those who inherit the Telestial and the Sons of Perdition? 

Read Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants. It will answer your questions and many others besides. It will be time well spent.

[Rob Osborn]

42 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

The bold is the important part.. Every where in the scripture the benefits Atonement is predicated on repentance.  Those in Hell will repent or they will join the ranks Sons of Perdition.

What triggers repentance?. Faith and that is where the difference lies.  There will come a time when Christ reveals himself to all(2nd Coming) and those without faith will have knowledge to base their repentance on.  and that is the difference between the Telestial and the Sons of Perdition.  In Hell at the end of time they will get knowledge.  The Telestial will use that knowledge to repent and gain the advantage of the Atonement. The Sons of Perdition will remain unrepentant

Our doctrine teaches the telestial do not repent and become baptised. Can you show me where in an official manual it says the telestial repent and are baptised?

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Our doctrine teaches the telestial do not repent and become baptised. Can you show me where in an official manual it says the telestial repent and are baptised?

 

Easy 3 Nephi 27:19   And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom;    (And oh so many others like it)

What it takes to be clean is pretty clear in the scriptures.... Unless you want to make the case that the Telestial Kingdom is not God's kingdom?

Baptism for the Dead... With the Goal to have every human soul's work done...  Which includes those that end up in the Telestial.

Thus we have the requirement of being clean... we have a mechanism for that cleanliness to happen, (Atonement, repentance, vicarious ordinances)..  All fitting together nice and neat and logically with themselves and with the rest of the scriptures..

 

Whereas the only thing you have is your demand that your interpretation is correct...  which demand leads to scriptures contradicting themselves ... and that should be sounding all kinds of warning bells to you about the incorrectness of your interpretation..

Edited December 30, 2016 by estradling75

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Under the current teaching almost everyone is saved eventually, even the unrepentant. My understanding and opinion works better because it expounds upon the doctrine in the Book of Mormon where "everyone" must repent, be baptized to be saved.

Does that answer your question?

I want to join Rob's church. It sounds so much easier than this church. It sounds not exactly the same, but a lot like (Pearl of Great Price | Moses 4:1)
Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

and

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 28:8)
And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

 

Easy 3 Nephi 27:19   And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom;    (And oh so many others like it)

What it takes to be clean is pretty clear in the scriptures.... Unless you want to make the case that the Telestial Kingdom is not God's kingdom?

Baptism for the Dead... With the Goal to have every human soul's work done...  Which includes those that end up in the Telestial.

Thus we have the requirement of being clean... we have a mechanism for that cleanliness to happen, (Atonement, repentance, vicarious ordinances)..  All fitting together nice and neat and logically with themselves and with the rest of the scriptures..

 

Whereas the only thing you have is your demand that your interpretation is correct...  which demand leads to scriptures contradicting themselves ... and that should be sounding all kinds of warning bells to you about the incorrectness of your interpretation..

So, show me the actual official doctrine where baptism is essential for telestial salvation. I bet you cant find it.

[Vort]

21 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, show me the actual official doctrine where baptism is essential for telestial salvation. I bet you cant find it.

Ron, other than a very brief overview in Section 76, the scriptures do not detail "telestial salvation", or in fact anything other than exaltation. That is all we are supposed to focus on. We aren't supposed to say, "Well, you know, terrestrial glory sounds pretty good, so I will not worry about anything past that." But it is obvious that accepting the atonement is required for any degree of salvation. And as far as I know, the only covenant available to accept the atonement is baptism.

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

Ron, other than a very brief overview in Section 76, the scriptures do not detail "telestial salvation", or in fact anything other than exaltation. That is all we are supposed to focus on. We aren't supposed to say, "Well, you know, terrestrial glory sounds pretty good, so I will not worry about anything past that." But it is obvious that accepting the atonement is required for any degree of salvation. And as far as I know, the only covenant available to accept the atonement is baptism.

Baptism is the only means whereby we can be saved into heaven from hell eternally. The implication here is that through baptism we become cleansed from all sin, we take upon Christs name becoming his son or daughter. But we teach baptism is only for the celestial kingdom. I agree, but I also only believe only the celestial kingdom or outer darkness exists after judgment just as Revelations reveals.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

 @Carborendum was born during the Roosevelt administration.
@Vort was born during the Roosevelt administration. 

I'll leave it to you, the reader to figure the rest of it out. 

(You guys are both good sports!) 

This is me in my younger days:

Of course, I must have been on a business trip since my wife won't kiss me with my beard.  On this current vacation, she's suffering a bit because "she" didn't back "my" razor.  I figure, it's for her benefit.  She ought to remember to pack it.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This is me in my younger days:

I was going to say you were both born during the Adams administration, but I'm a nice guy. 

[Vort]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

 @Carborendum was born during the Roosevelt administration.
@Vort was born during the Roosevelt administration. 

I'll leave it to you, the reader to figure the rest of it out. 

At least I got the good Roosevelt, and not the one with his face carved into a mountain.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

At least I got the good Roosevelt, and not the one with his face carved into a mountain.

Yeah, I got the one who rode horses into battle.  You got the one who gave us the New Deal.

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Yeah, I got the one who rode horses into battle.  You got the one who gave us the New Deal.

You have that backwards, friend. I'm the elder, remember?

[estradling75]

37 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, show me the actual official doctrine where baptism is essential for telestial salvation. I bet you cant find it.

What part of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is unclear to you?

The fact that the Atonement of Christ can make one clean from sin is clearly and plainly documented.  The fact that only the Atonement of Christ can make one clean enough for Heaven is also plainly documented.

The things we need to do to take advantage of the Atonement of Christ is plainly documented as well.

The quote that you give from the Gospel principle manual clearly states that it is the Atonement of Christ is the means by which those in Hell can make it to the lowest kingdom.

 

Yet you seem hell bent (literally) in saying that its not the Atonement that does the work... or that it is a different Atonement...  And then accusing the Church of being the one that is making that case.  You are the one making the accusation... the burden of proof is on you... every argument you have put forth has been shown as a  failure of your interpretation and disavowed as what the church officially teaches.