Can we really become gods?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

In fact, my Muslim friend in grad school made it clear that he thought modern Christianity was apostate because they were not monotheists.

Most Orthodox Jews say the same thing.

[MarginOfError]

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I believe the word you're looking for is "Heno" - theism.

No, we are not henotheists either.  We believe in the Godhead.  Try as we might, that belief doesn't really fit with any other theistic ideology as others perceive it.  As we perceive it, we may find many parallels and similarities to other dogmas.  But none really describe our belief other than the Godhead.

Well, that's progress, I guess. Last time I tried to sound that smart I mistakenly said hedonistic instead henotheistic. One of these days I'll get it right.

[Vort]

17 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Last time I tried to sound that smart I mistakenly said hedonistic instead henotheistic.

LOL (literally).

Any literate person has the problem of pronouncing words they've often read but never before heard. Many times, they are so familiar with the written word and their own mental pronunciation of it that they forget they've never really heard it. On my mission, I remember listening to a tape (the kind that missionaries used to pass around) and hearing some guy speaking on the Dead Sea Scrolls talk about a "puh-RIH-di-gum". Years later, I realized he was talking about a "paradigm". Of course, I've done the same thing myself. Ten or so years ago, I did the opposite. I had heard of a "carob-beaner" talked about among mountain-climbing folks, so I used the word in an online forum. My friends got a good laugh out of that one.

The other side of that type of problem is people who hear a word and like the sound of it, but don't really understand what it means. Again, this happens to all of us sometimes, but some people seem to have a special affinity for using words they don't quite understand. One of the flat-out smartest people I know has done this his whole life. Too bad, because people who understand what those words mean tend to think he's a crackpot and a blowhard, and dismiss him. Their loss (and his), because he's anything but stupid.

EDIT: For the record, I don't mean to suggest MOE did this. He probably knew very well what "henotheistic" meant, and just wrote the wrong word. It just got me thinking is all. I have noticed that I often write the word "to" when I mean "too", at least when I'm writing fast. I used to say, "Oh, that was just a typo because the double-o didn't register." But no, that wasn't it, because I would handwrite the same way. I guess my brain just sounds things out and tells my fingers what to spell, and sometimes when I am confronted with homophones, I pick the wrong won.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Vort

[Bad Karma]

19 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

You may want to consider that Mormonism, strictly speaking, in not a monotheistic religion. It is a heliotheistic religion. (Which happens to be one of the reasons mainstream Christianity doesn't accept Mormonism as part of Christianity). 

In short, heliotheism promotes the existence of multiple gods, but chooses to worship only one. 

Thanks, the moment you said "MOMONISM", I instantly identified where you're coming from.

Isn't attacking the LDS faith pretty much a "no no" here? Hmmmmmm

Edited January 3, 2017 by Bad Karma

[Bad Karma]

3 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

Well, that's progress, I guess. Last time I tried to sound that smart I mistakenly said hedonistic instead henotheistic. One of these days I'll get it right.

Now THAT made me chuckle.  lol

[MarginOfError]

5 minutes ago, Bad Karma said:

Thanks, the moment you said "MOMONISM", I instantly identified where your coming from.

Isn't attacking the LDS faith pretty much a "no no" here? Hmmmmmm

1) you're not winning yourself any favor with this angle. So feel free to try again with a response to the actual content of the post.

2) describing Mormonism as henotheistic is hardly an attack. It's barely even controversial. 

3) attacking Mormonism is as much of a no-no as attacking any other religion (ie, calling their beliefs BS).

So, would you like to try that again?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

Any literate person has the problem of pronouncing words they've often read but never before heard. Many times, they are so familiar with the written word and their own mental pronunciation of it that they forget they've never really heard it.

How very Monty Python.  "You English Khun - niggits".

I just played a variant of TABOO (the word game).  I read the word "stomachace" as "stoh - mah - chaw-chee".  I'd never seen it written as a compound word before.  I'd always read and spelled it as two separate words. But I looked it up since then and found that it is a valid alternate spelling.

FURTHER: As I read it, no one understood what I was saying (neither did I).  I eventually broke it down and said,"well, the first part looks like stomach, and ... DOH!!"

[Larry Cotrell]

20 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

2) describing Mormonism as henotheistic is hardly an attack. It's barely even controversial

Here's the definition of Henotheism: "the belief in and worship of a single god while also believing the existence or possible existence of other deities."

@Bad Karma, this sounds like Mormonism to me too. I don't think @MarginOfError was trying to attack you or anyone's religion.

Can you please explain why Mormonism isn't henotheisitc?

Edited January 3, 2017 by Larry Cotrell

[Just_A_Guy]

4 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Here's the definition of Henotheism: "the belief in and worship of a single god while also believing the existence or possible existence of other deities."

@Bad Karma, this sounds like Mormonism to me too. I don't think @MarginOfError was trying to attack you or anyone's religion.

Can you please explain why Mormonism isn't henotheisitc?

My guess is that "henotheism" typically connotes a universe where any one of several gods may be worshiped with more-or-less equal effect; which of course isn't the point of Mormon theology at all.

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Here's the definition of Henotheism: "the belief in and worship of a single god while also believing the existence or possible existence of other deities."

@Bad Karma, this sounds like Mormonism to me too. I don't think @MarginOfError was trying to attack you or anyone's religion.

Can you please explain why Mormonism isn't henotheisitc?

1)  LDS do not have the existence of any other divine beings confirmed by revelation.  Rather this talk is speculative and not scriptural (there's a huge difference in level of authority/certainty).   So all of the "are LDS henotheisitc" talk is based on unconfirmed speculations.  These speculations aren't really talked about in LDS church and don't really play a role in a LDS person's spiritual life.  All in all, this is very shaky ground to make any pro-henotheisitc arguments.

2) What we do know: the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE.  This oneness comes from unity.   IF there are other divine beings out there, it would follow that they would also be united in this perfection and the sum total would still be one God.  One God = monotheistic.   

 

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Here's the definition of Henotheism: "the belief in and worship of a single god while also believing the existence or possible existence of other deities.

Yes, that is the verbiage used to define it. 

36 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

this sounds like Mormonism to me too.

36 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Can you please explain why Mormonism isn't henotheisitc?

The meaning behind it assumed that there were many "supernatural beings" that could only be described in primitive cultures as "gods".  You could pick and choose which god to worship and obtain all your blesssings and protection from the god of your choice.

Mormons only believe in a single manner of worship.  We pray to the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost.  There is no allowance for some other god be whatever name we choose.  No other god would respond.  We as mortals have no other connection to any other gods.  Worship of any other is fruitless.

There is NO other name under heaven whereby man can be saved except through Jesus Christ.

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Guest

[Vort]

46 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Can you please explain why Mormonism isn't henotheisitc?

Mormonism is "henotheistic" in the same way that larger traditional Christianity is "henotheistic". You worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That's three. But you say they are all one God, so therefore monotheism. Observant Jews and Muslims laugh at your explanation.

I don't really care whether people want to call us "henotheists". The truth is one, and it's true no matter what we believe or what words we invent to explain it. Truth is true. Period. God and his Son and the Holy Ghost are one -- not in the way traditional and sectarian Christianity has said, but still, they are one. We do not worship a pantheon of deities such as the ancient Greeks or Romans or Egyptians did. We worship the Father in the power and name of the Son and through the ministrations of the Holy Ghost. Whether that counts as one God or three is of almost no consequence to me. The scriptures say we worship one God, so I go with that. But if other people want to count three, that's okay by me. Count it however you like. The important thing is that I worship the true and living God in the manner he has prescribed. I don't care very much about the rest.

[MarginOfError]

30 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

1)  LDS do not have the existence of any other divine beings confirmed by revelation.  Rather this talk is speculative and not scriptural (there's a huge difference in level of authority/certainty).   So all of the "are LDS henotheisitc" talk is based on unconfirmed speculations.  These speculations aren't really talked about in LDS church and don't really play a role in a LDS person's spiritual life.  All in all, this is very shaky ground to make any pro-henotheisitc arguments.

2) What we do know: the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE.  This oneness comes from unity.   IF there are other divine beings out there, it would follow that they would also be united in this perfection and the sum total would still be one God.  One God = monotheistic.   

 

The fact that we consider the three to be distinct beings alone would qualify Mormonism as henotheistic. Speculation of other gods, etc are irrelevant at that point. 

Trinitarians are much closer to monotheism than Mormons.

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yes, that is the verbiage used to define it. 

The meaning behind it assumed that there were many "supernatural beings" that could only be described in primitive cultures as "gods".  You could pick and choose which god to worship and obtain all your blesssings and protection from the god of your choice.

Mormons only believe in a single manner of worship.  We pray to the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost.  There is no allowance for some other god be whatever name we choose.  No other god would respond.  We as mortals have no other connection to any other gods.  Worship of any other is fruitless.

There is NO other name under heaven whereby man can be saved except through Jesus Christ.

 

I agree with all of that. And still, this description does not disqualify mormonism from henotheism. 

[Jane_Doe]

9 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

The fact that we consider the three to be distinct beings alone would qualify Mormonism as henotheistic. Speculation of other gods, etc are irrelevant at that point. 

Except that the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE.  For example, to follow the Son's commands is to simultaneously follow the Father's- in fact you couldn't separate the Father's vs Son's wishes if you wanted (because they are the same).  Just because they aren't the same person doesn't mean they aren't still ONE.   

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

You're going to extrapolate all of that from a missed reference (that easily could have been a typo)?

Perhaps you'd care to elaborate what exactly I don't understand about Mormon theology instead of disqualifying everything on a missed reference.

You mean beyond what you think you know about Masonry?  How about :

11 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

The fact that we consider the three to be distinct beings alone would qualify Mormonism as henotheistic. Speculation of other gods, etc are irrelevant at that point. 

I agree with all of that. And still, this description does not disqualify mormonism from henotheism. 

Look, if you want to use the definition of a word in whatever form you wish to make your point, then have at it.  But the simplistic view you have shown here shows a lack of understanding of what we really believe as well as the intended meaning of the man who coined the phrase to begin with.

But alas, you've already made your decision and nothing will dissuade you from it when suspicion and your own desires are all that are required to satisfy your idea of "preponderance of evidence".

11 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Trinitarians are much closer to monotheism than Mormons.

On this one fact I can't decide whether I agree or not.  We are not monotheists.  That much I'd admit.  Trinitarians are "closer" to monotheism?  I'll have to think about that.

[MarginOfError]

7 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Except that the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE.  For example, to follow the Son's commands is to simultaneously follow the Father's- in fact you couldn't separate the Father's vs Son's wishes if you wanted (because they are the same).  Just because they aren't the same person doesn't mean they aren't still ONE.   

I'm really not arguing that. But, strictly speaking, that is not monotheistic.

At a minimum, we worship a being we identify as Heavenly Father, and we worship another being we identify as Jesus Christ. Since 2 > 1, and mono is a singular prefix, we cannot accurately claim monotheism. 

That isn't a statement of value or moral implication. It's just definitionally accurate.

[MarginOfError]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You mean beyond what you think you know about Masonry?  How about :

Look, if you want to use the definition of a word in whatever form you wish to make your point, then have at it.  But the simplistic view you have shown here shows a lack of understanding of what we really believe as well as the intended meaning of the man who coined the phrase to begin with.

But alas, you've already made your decision and nothing will dissuade you from it when suspicion and your own desires are all that are required to satisfy your idea of "preponderance of evidence".

On this one fact I can't decide whether I agree or not.  We are not monotheists.  That much I'd admit.  Trinitarians are "closer" to monotheism?  I'll have to think about that.

Sooo...nothing persuasive to add. Got it.

By the way, I've never questioned your understanding of Mormon theology simply because I disagree with you on some of the notably irrelevant points of discussion we've been involved with here. If you think I'm wrong, explain to me why. But don't engage in character reputation assassination; it's beneath you. (But not me, apparently )

[Jane_Doe]

9 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

I'm really not arguing that. But, strictly speaking, that is not monotheistic.

It's also not henotheistic.  And if you go by strict definition Trinitarians aren't monotheistic either (belief in 3 different divine persons).  Hence my previous comment about theology not fitting well into pigeon holes.

If you insist on labels and open things up to more broader interpretations, both LDS and Trinitarians are monotheistic.

 

9 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

At a minimum, we worship a being we identify as Heavenly Father, and we worship another being we identify as Jesus Christ. Since 2 > 1, and mono is a singular prefix, we cannot accurately claim monotheism. 

That isn't a statement of value or moral implication. It's just definitionally accurate.

There isn't really a dictionary definition for pronouns where total unity is active.  Probably because the dictionary was written by humans who are really big on "mine vs yours".  

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

That isn't a statement of value or moral implication. It's just definitionally accurate.

Not really. That is totally a matter of how you understand the "mono-" prefix and how you understand the nature of God and the meaning of the word we use to identify him.

The fact is that there is nothing particularly doggy about the word "dog". it's just a tag which we, by common consent, agree has a certain meaning. Even from person to person, the mental image of that meaning varies significantly, from a ravenous wolf to an affectionate and lazy toy poodle. The word "God" refers to a sacred Being, but the understanding of the meaning and nature of the reality behind the verbal token "G-o-d" can vary significantly.

Same holds true with the "mono-" prefix. When a friend comes down with infectious MONOnucleosis, do we assume that the disease in his body consists only of a single nucleus? Does a company holding a MONOpoly really only get to sell a single item?

The point being not that you are wrong, but that there can be any number of ways to interpret the word "monotheism". As I wrote before, God is as he is, and if we assign the word "monotheistic" to his nature (or to our worship), that is intended to be descriptive of him (or of us), not proscriptive.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Sooo...nothing persuasive to add. Got it.

By the way, I've never questioned your understanding of Mormon theology simply because I disagree with you on some of the notably irrelevant points of discussion we've been involved with here. If you think I'm wrong, explain to me why. But don't engage in character reputation assassination; it's beneath you. (But not me, apparently )

Nothing persuasive.  Not to you.

You think I question your understanding because I disagree with you?  Where did that straw man come from?

Assassinate your character?  Have you heard the phase "one cannot tarnish a rusted blade"?  And no, it's not beneath me.  It's my specialty.  But I've been trying to reserve it for people who are really asking for it.

[MarginOfError]

Okay, I guess mormons are monotheistic for very large values of one.

http://puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/5656/when-does-11-3

[MarginOfError]

16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You think I question your understanding because I disagree with you?  Where did that straw man come ?

How about when you said:

"This is the third AoF, not the 2nd.  I can see that you either used to be LDS or have decided you've studied enough of our faith to intelligently talk to us about it.  But (and I do say this in all politeness) I'd suggest that you recognize that you don't know enough to give advice about what we believe." 

I interpret that as a flag to others that this MOE guy either is a disgruntled former member, or not really a member at all, so you shouldn't listen to what he has to say. And your basis for that entire claim is a disagreement about Masons, henotheism, and a missed reference. Am I misinterpreting your messsge? 

[bytebear]

On 1/1/2017 at 7:54 PM, Eowyn said:

LDS belief in the Godhead

 

Also I think when the Bible told me to become one with my husband, and when Christ said that if we are not one we are not His, he didn't mean that we become the same, singular organism 

No, you become one family.  The word "family" is a singular that represents multiple persons.  Similarly the word "God" represents a singular entity that is not a single person.

[Larry Cotrell]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

We do not worship a pantheon of deities such as the ancient Greeks or Romans or Egyptians did.

Just to clarify, I was not accusing anyone of worshiping more than one god. In fact, that is quite the opposite of what I said.

2 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Here's the definition of Henotheism: "the belief in and worship of a single god while also believing the existence or possible existence of other deities."

 Thanks to one and all for your answers to my question.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Larry Cotrell

[Bad Karma]

3 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

1) you're not winning yourself any favor with this angle. So feel free to try again with a response to the actual content of the post.

2) describing Mormonism as henotheistic is hardly an attack. It's barely even controversial. 

3) attacking Mormonism is as much of a no-no as attacking any other religion (ie, calling their beliefs BS).

So, would you like to try that again?

Buddy, you must be 20 ways of in love with yourself to even think you could talk to me what way.  You can just roll that up, stick it in your mouth, set fire to it and smoke it. I've known your kind in MANY places. I've got no use for you,. 

Number two, says YOU! 

Three, Attacking "Mormonism"? There is no such thing as "Mormonism", so, you've simply proven yourself an evangelical loud mouth. 

Don't sound so glib, you already lost me when you started acting like a TOOL...  That is when I shrugged and said "Meh, another anti-Mormon Fundie_.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Bad Karma